Frolov or Zherdev

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Dr_Chimera*

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MOOSE55 said:
Frolov never made the RSL til 19 because, when he was 18, his team played in the upper league, when he was 19, his team moved to the RSL.

I believe you are correct...

Frolov was good enough to play in the Superleague at 18 - that is for sure. That said, he wasn't as good as Zherdev at the same age.
 

punchy1

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So, after one game where he scored 2 points (and a couple where he looks solid as anyone else) he is a better prospect than and has more upside than a proven Frolov who has 16 points and is a stellar +9 this year and finished near the top of all rookies last year on a team that consisted mostly of AHL level talent. (at the time)

I would say this, I don't play fantasy sports so I have no clue as to how this works so forgive my ignorance and I am a homer on this one and am truly trying not to let that influence what I am saying. I also think that Dr Chimera is one of the most knowledgeable posters on the boards so mates if this comes off as pissy it isn't my intent. Actually, I am enjoying the chat about it and smiling while I write if that helps anything. I can only say this, at the end of the season Zherdev *could* do bloody great and *could* have his streaks where he is a real bang on scoring rook. He *could*. Frolov has proven to be a steady performer and now that his team is closer to having its staff back there is nothing that says that he won't do anything but continue to perform at the steady and predictable pace that he has since comming into the league.

So, the gamble would be Zherdev (who I watched delayed and he does have real scarry skills) and whether or not he will be able to produce with any consistancy or do you take the proven performer in Frolov. For my money, homerisms aside, I would want my rook to be someone I could count on to put up points to take up any slack that my vets might not provide. Thats my take but again, I am only thinking of who has produced more points and is a more established player that is coming into his own versus the reward of a sniper who has two games under his belt. Anything is possible and IF he turns out to be close to Kovy then the choice would be clear. Of course, I have a hard time believing that he will given that Kovy is one in a million talentwise but who knows.
 

Ejh18

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Punchy...

The problem is, that there is no fair comparisons.

Frolov is working on his second year in the NHL.

Zherdev is working on game 3. Its not Zherdev's fault that he is younger... just the way it is.

For a true comparison we would have to wait untill Zherdev gets about 90 games under his belt.

This person is trying to decide what to do NOW. So the discussion will turn to what they have shown Vs. what they are capable of.

Its not a question of a 2nd year player who is absolutly lighting it up Vs. a top notch prospect. Frolov had a solid rookie season, and is having a good 2d campaign. But not blowing anyone away.

We could see Frolov mazx out at 50 points... and Zherdev max out at 90. Who knows. It could be the other way around, but there is no way to tell, and no fair way to compare the two.

Its always going to be have done vs. could do.
 

Bobby Orr's Knees

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Ejh18 said:
Its not a question of a 2nd year player who is absolutly lighting it up Vs. a top notch prospect. Frolov had a solid rookie season, and is having a good 2d campaign. But not blowing anyone away.
That depends on how you define "blowing people away". If we are talking about points, then yeah, Frolov's output hasn't been all that spectacular. But his *play* has been superb. He's very good in every aspect of the game. And mature beyond his years. I think his point production will go up once things get a little more stable with the Kings.
 

Ejh18

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Bobby Orr's Knees said:
That depends on how you define "blowing people away". If we are talking about points, then yeah, Frolov's output hasn't been all that spectacular. But his *play* has been superb. He's very good in every aspect of the game. And mature beyond his years. I think his point production will go up once things get a little more stable with the Kings.

I understand that. I was just making a generalization (thats why I used, 2nd year player etc.)

The original question was about a fantasy league, so I figured all-around play doesnt mean too much..
 

punchy1

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See that is my entire point. Zherdev has yet to prove anything and Frolov has. So if you are going to decide on who will be better which way do you go ? (i mean for a league where you need to earn points, not in general, that we don't know yet)

That is what my point is. Frolov is and has been producing and Zherdev, while not having an opportunity to do so yet, has proven little if anything at all. The question is which do you go with for this fantasy league. My answer is why would you go with anyone else than Frolov when your choice (the one we are given) is a lad who has a couple of games under his belt and one that he was good in. If we are talking about the deal happening today (as we were asked to do) then to me its a no brainer. You go with the proven performer. If we can wait a month or so then it is a different story as we will be able to see if Zherdev has the cookies to play along with the best talent in the world. I also think that Frolovs point production has been fantastic. Look at his class of players (last years top rooks) and you will see that he is right at or near the top of them. Nash has more points but as usual isn't doing well in his own end. I don't know if that matters in this fantasy league but the one I read about had it that the player you have gets points according to what he scores and loses them based on his plus minus. So if Nash has 24 points and is minus 12 well then you get the picture. If they don't matter than it still has Frolov as second in his class in scoring. So, the real question then becomes this, Zherdev or the entire rookie class of last year excluding Nash? See my point?
 

punchy1

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Kiwiville.
Sorry mates, Nash has 20 points and is minus -6 with 17 goals and 3 assists. Top drawer he is. But, if you take away the points on the minus (which I don't know if this league does) then he has 12 points where Frolov has 16 + 9 (adding his +/- which is how it was done in the fantasy league I read about so as to be able to comment on this thread, may not be the same) for 25 points. That is comparing him with the best in his class from last year. That is all I was doing to make my point since if I read this thread right it is about who to keep based on who will produce more points for your league over the next season or so since it is a keeper league.
 

Ejh18

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+/- is such a horrible stat to compare between teams.

LA Avg. +/- +1.2 (players playing at least 15 games)

CBJ avg. +/- -5.3 (players playing at least 15 games)

Yes, Nash's +/- doesnt look good, but he is par for the team. There are a lot of factors that go into +/- that dont show up. What line is the person playing on, what line are they facing. Are their points coming off the PP... etc.
 

Xoggz22

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I'm just wondering....

Dr_Chimera said:
You're getting some very skewed advice here...

Well, here's something to take into account:

Zherdev was a top-line scorer in the Superleague at the age of 17, while Frolov never made the Superleague until he was 19.

So, right now, even with his recent struggles, Zherdev is way ahead developmentally of Frolov at this stage (age: roughly 18).

That said, the safe pick is Frolov - I would be lying if I said that Zherdev does not worry me a bit - he doesn't strike me as a guy with the strongest will - he's a bit passive. He was kicked around for much of his career.

Then again, Zherdev is a good guy from what I've heard and has a pretty good attitude about things - just needs to get meaner.

I'd stick with Frolov - simply because it's a safety thing, but if you like to take chances, Zherdev has Frolov beat in terms of upside (and he's in the NHL earlier than Frolov by almost 2 full years).

Do you live in Russia or a former Soviet state? You provide details (Zherdev is passive ......kicked around for much of his career.) like you know these players so well. How often have you seen them play?

Personally I've seen Zherdev twice (JAckets season tix) and I'll hold judgement until he's been here for a while. I've only seen Frolov the few times he's made it to Columbus. What I can tell you is that after two games, I know Zherdev has tons of skill and he sacrificed the body to block two shots IN OUR ZONE.

We'll see
 

Samkow

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JasonMacIsaac said:
He was suppost to be the #1 pick up untill the coaching problem at the WJC. He is showing why, he should have had two goals but who is complaining.

Nash and Zherdev in the future will be scary.

Nash + Zherdev looks alot like Heatley + Kovalchuk

What makes this better is the fact that we are very likley to get a Top5 Pick in this draft, which will probobly be used on a forward.

Nash-Ovechkin-Zherdev :bow:
 

Kugel

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zherdev

Samkow said:
What makes this better is the fact that we are very likley to get a Top5 Pick in this draft, which will probobly be used on a forward.

Nash-Ovechkin-Zherdev :bow:

that would be the sickest line the NHL since the production line probably...... i think that u have to take zherdev over frolov just because zhedrev is compared to kouvlchuk (a poor man's locuchuk) and was a number 4 pick for a reason....frolov went later in the frist round and he plays with plaffy so if players like deadmarsh ever comeback he might not play with plaffy anymore.
 

Dr_Chimera*

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Xoggz22 said:
Do you live in Russia or a former Soviet state? You provide details (Zherdev is passive ......kicked around for much of his career.) like you know these players so well. How often have you seen them play?

Personally I've seen Zherdev twice (JAckets season tix) and I'll hold judgement until he's been here for a while. I've only seen Frolov the few times he's made it to Columbus. What I can tell you is that after two games, I know Zherdev has tons of skill and he sacrificed the body to block two shots IN OUR ZONE.

We'll see

By "kicked around" I meant kicked around by Tikhonov and other coaches. This is a big reason why he's out of CSKA.

I scout hockey prospects, so I've seen him a decent number of times - I don't want to seem like I'm knocking him. That's certainly not the intention. But one doesn't go far simply doling out praise.

Zherdev is a player with noticeable weaknesses that were exposed at last year's WJC's, but his strengths nonetheless outweigh his struggles.
 

Dr_Chimera*

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punchy1 said:
That is what my point is. Frolov is and has been producing and Zherdev, while not having an opportunity to do so yet, has proven little if anything at all. The question is which do you go with for this fantasy league. My answer is why would you go with anyone else than Frolov when your choice (the one we are given) is a lad who has a couple of games under his belt and one that he was good in. If we are talking about the deal happening today (as we were asked to do) then to me its a no brainer. You go with the proven performer.

This is like discussing the stockmarket.

Do you sell now or risk and wait for greater riches?

Sometimes it is better to wait if you have reasonable reasons to believe that your stock will bloom to a greater extent than before.

An exagerrated analogy would be Sidney Crosby to Mike Knuble. Who do you take? (not to be interpreted as one on par with Zherdev v Frolov)

My theory has always been - if it's close, keep what you have.
 

ukyo

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Kugel said:
that would be the sickest line the NHL since the production line probably...... i think that u have to take zherdev over frolov just because zhedrev is compared to kouvlchuk (a poor man's locuchuk) and was a number 4 pick for a reason....frolov went later in the frist round and he plays with plaffy so if players like deadmarsh ever comeback he might not play with plaffy anymore.

Martin Havlat was picked much later in the 1st round than Pavel Brendl. What's your point?

Frolov has been producing with the likes of Brad Chartrand, Eric Belanger, and Trent Klatt. He hasn't been on Palffy's line in a while, except on penalty kills. He has only recently been put on the power play.

BTW, +/- may not be an accurate indicator of how effective a player is, but in Frolov's case, it is pretty darn close. His presence on the ice is more than palpable to the casual spectator.
 

punchy1

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Although it has spun away from your intent and I feel to blame for it but, you are right, it is interesting. By the way, what did you decide?
 

M_Y_T_H

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punchy1 said:
Although it has spun away from your intent and I feel to blame for it but, you are right, it is interesting. By the way, what did you decide?

No worries, this actually turned out to be a much better thread than I had anticipated. Personally, I always felt that Zherdev had more upside, but I've been watching a lot of Kings games lately and I've been really impressed by Frolov, thus wanted to have him in my keeper league. I've decided not to trade Zherdev in order to get him.

That being said, I'm reasonably sure I could get Frolov with other prospects/young players I have. (Namely Hemsky and Ouellett) So, I guess I'll take a wait and see approach with those two.
 

Yosemite Sam

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M_Y_T_H said:
No worries, this actually turned out to be a much better thread than I had anticipated. Personally, I always felt that Zherdev had more upside, but I've been watching a lot of Kings games lately and I've been really impressed by Frolov, thus wanted to have him in my keeper league. I've decided not to trade Zherdev in order to get him.

That being said, I'm reasonably sure I could get Frolov with other prospects/young players I have. (Namely Hemsky and Ouellett) So, I guess I'll take a wait and see approach with those two.

I'd give Hemsky a chance. I've watched lots of Oilers games - can't say I've seen Frolov play much, though.
 

punchy1

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Frolov had another star of the game performance last night and had another multi point game too. He had a goal and two assists giving him 19 points in 26 games and a plus 11. (8 goals, 11 assists) He was dominant in the game and saw less PP time than allot of his team mates as is usual. (andy murray has a habbit of doing that to him although I and allot of others have no idea why) He is one of three or so of his class that has improved over last years stats (to this point) in all areas of his game. He is two points behind Nash (great goal scorer this year, amazing) but is playing a really balanced game and is the Kings second/third line LW.

Just an update.
 

big_steve

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I think I would prefer Zherdev by a long shot. I think the guy has an excellent upside and if he reaches it, he very well could be the best player in the NHL. Frolov will also be a superstar but nowhere near Zherdev in my opinion.
 

punchy1

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"if" he reaches it. Mr, have fun with your two in the bush way of thinking, I will take the allstar in the hand instead. Although, I have to think you are so truly and wildly optomistic that your opinion should be thrown out. Take out the extremes on both sides of an argument and there you find the answer.

3 points -3 in three games for Zherdev doesn't mean that he *wont* be a superstar but it doesn't mean he will either.
 

Ejh18

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punchy1 said:
"if" he reaches it. Mr, have fun with your two in the bush way of thinking, I will take the allstar in the hand instead. Although, I have to think you are so truly and wildly optomistic that your opinion should be thrown out. Take out the extremes on both sides of an argument and there you find the answer.

3 points -3 in three games for Zherdev doesn't mean that he *wont* be a superstar but it doesn't mean he will either.

Which all-star in hand do you have? Since when is frolov an allstar?

And you have Zherdev stats wrong.

Frolov still needs to reach his potential too, so I dont see what your argument is?
 
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