News Article: Friedman: In talking to some of the Sabres, they see the cycle of losing affecting the younger guys

joshjull

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31 Thoughts: Expect Canucks to be aggressive in post-Sedins era - Sportsnet.ca




17. The Sabres will finish 31st and have the best lottery odds for the No. 1 draft pick. It’s been a tough year for Botterill and head coach Phil Housley. They came from organizations with demanding coaches, but there’s no doubt a lot of the tone in Nashville and Pittsburgh is set by the players. In talking to some of the Sabres, they see the “cycle of losing” affecting the younger guys.

“Look at Rasmus Ristolainen” one said “He’s a really good player. But he’s been here the longest. [Losing is] all he knows.”


Opponents say they’ve taken advantage of Jack Eichel’s obvious on-ice frustration. I mentioned these comments to Botterill and we had a really good conversation about it.

“[Eichel’s] last injury came at such a bad time. We went to Western Canada, beat Calgary, Edmonton and Vancouver. Our power play was on a 30-per cent stretch, and he hurt his ankle.”


The GM shrugged his shoulders in frustration at the memory.

“You just want see him have some success. We need to win games. It’s not just Jack’s team. We need to help him. Teammates need to help him. When he is challenged, he responds in a good way. You talk about changing culture. How do you do that? You can’t always just trade for it. That’s why it’s so important that Rochester made the playoffs. Those young players are going to understand what it is like to play meaningful games, what it takes to win them.”


He told a story about Linus Ullmark, who will get every chance to be Buffalo’s No. 1 goaltender next season. In a December game against Belleville, Ullmark lost a shutout with one minute left.

“Some goalies would be upset, but Ullmark was celebrating in the room with everyone else. All he cared about was the win. That’s what we need.”


 

oldgoalie

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31 Thoughts: Expect Canucks to be aggressive in post-Sedins era - Sportsnet.ca




17. The Sabres will finish 31st and have the best lottery odds for the No. 1 draft pick. It’s been a tough year for Botterill and head coach Phil Housley. They came from organizations with demanding coaches, but there’s no doubt a lot of the tone in Nashville and Pittsburgh is set by the players. In talking to some of the Sabres, they see the “cycle of losing” affecting the younger guys.

“Look at Rasmus Ristolainen” one said “He’s a really good player. But he’s been here the longest. [Losing is] all he knows.”


Opponents say they’ve taken advantage of Jack Eichel’s obvious on-ice frustration. I mentioned these comments to Botterill and we had a really good conversation about it.

“[Eichel’s] last injury came at such a bad time. We went to Western Canada, beat Calgary, Edmonton and Vancouver. Our power play was on a 30-per cent stretch, and he hurt his ankle.”


The GM shrugged his shoulders in frustration at the memory.

“You just want see him have some success. We need to win games. It’s not just Jack’s team. We need to help him. Teammates need to help him. When he is challenged, he responds in a good way. You talk about changing culture. How do you do that? You can’t always just trade for it. That’s why it’s so important that Rochester made the playoffs. Those young players are going to understand what it is like to play meaningful games, what it takes to win them.”


He told a story about Linus Ullmark, who will get every chance to be Buffalo’s No. 1 goaltender next season. In a December game against Belleville, Ullmark lost a shutout with one minute left.

“Some goalies would be upset, but Ullmark was celebrating in the room with everyone else. All he cared about was the win. That’s what we need.”


awesome. that's what we need, too.
 

1972

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This is true, this organization has to move out a core guy this offseason and help shift the culture. Next year, this organization needs to at the very least be in the race until April.
 

CatsforReinhart

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I mentioned this before and was met with opposition. Guys like ROR, Kane and Bogosian were brought in here and all they knew is losing. If you want to build a winner how does trading for losers help?
 

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Changing the culture is a euphemism for hiring a coach who is disciplinarian and has zero tolerance for players that don't buy into the program.
I agree

Coach sets the tone and needs to enforce it the who way through
 

OkimLom

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This is true, this organization has to move out a core guy this offseason and help shift the culture. Next year, this organization needs to at the very least be in the race until April.

Or you can completely shift and shape a new culture of the WHOLE TEAM by bringing in a coach that can teach these players HOW TO WIN, instead of relying on older players. That could change that losing culture pretty damn quickly if a guy like Q comes in. It would be better for the team overall. If these core players were in their 30's right now I would be for moving a core piece. These are young guys, shipping one out is not going to do anything except impact the player on his way out as he goes to a team that probably has a better track record of winning.
 

old kummelweck

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I mentioned this before and was met with opposition. Guys like ROR, Kane and Bogosian were brought in here and all they knew is losing. If you want to build a winner how does trading for losers help?
That's absolutely not true. Kane played on the 2008 U18 (gold) and the 2009 WJC (gold) and won a Memorial cup with the Vancouver Giants. ROR has 5 gold medals from international play with team canada.

Bogo would be the only one that hasn't really won anything like that, and his biggest knock is his injury history.
 

Moskau

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That's absolutely not true. Kane played on the 2008 U18 (gold) and the 2009 WJC (gold) and won a Memorial cup with the Vancouver Giants. ROR has 5 gold medals from international play with team canada.
Shane Doan is that you? Using tournament success as a basis for being a winner is strange to me. Especially a tournament that players who failed to make the playoffs play in. Is Johan Larsson a winner? Tyler Ennis? Don't get me wrong RoR had some fantastic tournaments but I could have been named to some of those teams and won gold.
 

old kummelweck

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Shane Doan is that you? Using tournament success as a basis for being a winner is strange to me. Especially a tournament that players who failed to make the playoffs play in. Is Johan Larsson a winner? Tyler Ennis? Don't get me wrong RoR had some fantastic tournaments but I could have been named to some of those teams and won gold.
The evidence doesn't fit the narrative, so you have to discredit the evidence. You have to narrowly define winning without taking into account that good players end up on bad teams by no fault of their own.
 

old kummelweck

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They do. Coaches like that absolutely hate to lose. Like-minded players assume leadership positions on their teams. For Housley, losing is just another day at the office. This team has no identity.
I don't think Housley is a bad coach, but you're right, he's not an ass kicker. He may just not be the right coach for what they need.
 

Baccus

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Oh good.

The magical Winners vs Losers argument. Can we also factor in how Clutch each player is?
 

Moskau

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The evidence doesn't fit the narrative, so you have to discredit the evidence. You have to narrowly define winning without taking into account that good players end up on bad teams by no fault of their own.
Good players has nothing to do with winners. Shane Doan was a good player but the guy was a loser. Evander Kane for all of his career has been a loser. You can't expect to bring a guy like that in and have him teach guys around him what it takes. You seriously think that because his team won some international tournaments he's fit to teach? Jiri Novotny was the captain of his WJC team and I'm not convinced he knew how to tie his own skates. Johan Larsson was the captain of his WJC Gold Winning team. Give him a letter? Rasmus Ristolainen scored the golden goal just a few years ago and the entire basis for this thread is that the organization is concerned he's becoming damaged goods.

How about this. Replace the trash veterans on this team with actual NHL talent or players who aren't just playing for one more contract and see what happens. Seems to have worked out well for Colorado.
 

CatsforReinhart

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That's absolutely not true. Kane played on the 2008 U18 (gold) and the 2009 WJC (gold) and won a Memorial cup with the Vancouver Giants. ROR has 5 gold medals from international play with team canada.

Bogo would be the only one that hasn't really won anything like that, and his biggest knock is his injury history.
You are joking right? I mean should we go back to peewee too? I am talking about NHL STANLEY CUP EXPERIENCE.

Winning. I won peewee hockey too does that make me a winner?
 

CatsforReinhart

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Oh good.

The magical Winners vs Losers argument. Can we also factor in how Clutch each player is?
Why do you belittle it when it is an actual fact? Why else are coaches like Babcock and Torts in demand? What do you think great leaders do? They win. I grew up watching guys like Mark Messier and the fact he was a winner made him a great leader. People don't follow losers. You think you can assemble a bunch of losers and a loser coach and magically they win? Cause that is the magical part them winning. Drury was called a winner and Drury was clutch because that is what winners do.

My main point being people follow winners not losers. When a coach smacks the players in the face with his stanley cup rings they listen. Sure there are exceptions to the rule but if you watch hockey and when it comes to the playoffs experience means everything. If you don't win you don't make it to the playoffs and you don't have that experience. If you don't get that then what else can be said
 

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I think the real argument here is that being a winner and knowing what it takes to be a winner are two different things. Knowing what it takes is a learned skill, but anyone can win or have success under the right circumstances. Chances are a few guys in the locker room already know what it takes... but the stars do have to allign and other players that understand the same concepts have to be there as well.

You can't really teach competitiveness or complacency. I think we have a lot of competitive guys on the team, we just need less complacent ones... and also faster, younger, and more skilled ones.
 

joshjull

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I don't think Housley is a bad coach, but you're right, he's not an ass kicker. He may just not be the right coach for what they need.



We don't have enough talent on the roster and in the organization. We don't have enough self driven players in the lockerrom based on whats been discussed recently. These things don't magically get fixed a "hard ass" coach. A type of coach thats fading away in the NHL as more and more coaches realize the changing dynamics of a younger and younger league and adapt their coaching approach to fit. They've adopted less hard ass type tactics. Torts wouldn't even be in the league anymore had he not changed. The last real hard ass "try to bend players to his will" type was Therrien and he is no longer coaching. The things we need to get fixed (at the beginning of my post) require our GM to fix them. If he makes progress there, then we'll find out if Housley is an issue or not.
 
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CatsforReinhart

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I think the real argument here is that being a winner and knowing what it takes to be a winner are two different things. Knowing what it takes is a learned skill, but anyone can win or have success under the right circumstances. Chances are a few guys in the locker room already know what it takes... but the stars do have to allign and other players that understand the same concepts have to be there as well.

You can't really teach competitiveness or complacency. I think we have a lot of competitive guys on the team, we just need less complacent ones... and also faster, younger, and more skilled ones.
Winning a Stanley cup means you know what it takes to win a Stanley Cup. Once you have one a Stanley cup you can then share that experience with players who have not won a Stanley cup thus providing leadership and experience.

I guess there can be a fine line between experience winning in the playoffs and just winning. It is probably why we see Washington lose in the playoffs every year. You don't know what it takes to win a Stanley Cup until you have won a Stanley Cup. Without that experience on this team how can that be shared and how can leadership take over?

Also if you listen to players and coaches, analysts they will tell you one key thing in winning a Stanley Cup is preparation. Being prepared for the grueling process. If you have never won how would you know how to prepare

Winning and Leadership go hand in hand and is needed on this team.
 

valet

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Winning a Stanley cup means you know what it takes to win a Stanley Cup. Once you have one a Stanley cup you can then share that experience with players who have not won a Stanley cup thus providing leadership and experience.

I guess there can be a fine line between experience winning in the playoffs and just winning. It is probably why we see Washington lose in the playoffs every year. You don't know what it takes to win a Stanley Cup until you have won a Stanley Cup. Without that experience on this team how can that be shared and how can leadership take over?
I don't think that the two are mutually inclusive. Jordan Nolan won cups....... so why has he been such a passenger?

Winning doesnt mean you know what it takes to win
 
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Moskau

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We don't have enough talent on the roster and in the organization. We don't have enough self driven players in the lockerrom based on whats been discussed recently. These things don't magically get fixed with the "hard ass" coach some are clamoring for. A type of coach thats fading away in the NHL. As more and more coaches realize the changing dynamics of a younger and younger league. They've adopted less hard ass type tactics. Torts wouldn't even be in the league anymore had he not changed. The last real hard ass "try to bend players to his will" type was Therrien and he is no longer coaching. The things we need to get fixed (at the beginning of my post) require our GM to fix them. If he makes progress there, then we'll find out if Housley is an issue or not.
I forgot who said it but it was an ex coach or GM a few years ago. It may even have been Torts who said it.
Basically he said that in today's league you have to treat 18 year old players (and their agents) like you'd treat a 12 year old. And you have to treat a 24 year old player like you'd treat a 16 year old. He said that the players and agents always win out in today's climate and you have to bend over backwards for them. Players and agents are very quick to turn on their teams if they aren't coddled. It's why the totalitarian style coach doesn't work anymore. Teams are so young and so hive mind that if you don't have the vets in the lockerrom to help the coach out he wont last very long.
 

CatsforReinhart

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I don't think that the two are mutually inclusive. Jordan Nolan won cups....... so why has he been such a passenger?

Winning doesnt mean you know what it takes to win
Come on, lets not be silly. You can always point to the 13th forward and say no it doesn't work that way.

What Jordan Nolan can share is what a locker room is like after winning a cup and any player who has not won a cup can talk to Jordan Nolan and find out what it was like and someone like Ovechkin has no idea what it is like so that is what experience is. Winning and leadership don't go hand in hand but they can provide advice and experience. Like the saying goes there is an exception to every rule

Also Jordan Nolan is not the winner in that situation he is the one riding the coat tails of the leaders.

Federov choked in the playoffs for years before he won a cup. I watched him growing up and yes he was always criticized and knocked that maybe Russians are soft and weak and until he won a cup he was never talked about as being a great player and leader.

Point being you have to win if you want to lead. They don't go hand in hand but I will take a winning leader over a losing leader any day of the week.


What I am getting at is our core. We build our core with Tim Murray around Eichel, ROR, Reinhart Kane, Risto, Bogo etc etc at some point you need a mixture of guys who have won. Like a Gionta but in his prime. We brought Gionta back and he was the captain. He has won a cup AND he is a leader so people will listen.

Clearly there is something wrong when we have no captain on this team and it is Eichel's team.

Something just doesn't seem right.

Jumbled rant over
 
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valet

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Come on, lets not be silly. You can always point to the 13th forward and say no it doesn't work that way.

What Jordan Nolan can share is what a locker room is like after winning a cup and any player who has not won a cup can talk to Jordan Nolan and find out what it was like and someone like Ovechkin has no idea what it is like so that is what experience is. Winning and leadership don't go hand in hand but they can provide advice and experience. Like the saying goes there is an exception to every rule

Also Jordan Nolan is not the winner in that situation he is the one riding the coat tails of the leaders.
Thats my point tho... that there are guys on the team that follow and there are guys that lead, so having won a cup doesn't say much

That's not to say that the experience doesn't mean anything... It's just that winning doesn't make someone into a leader
 

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