Tennis: French Open 2021

Pavel Buchnevich

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Dec 8, 2013
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I know people say Djokovic is unlikeable, but I don't find him unlikeable. It may be that I'm not a die-hard tennis fan like some people are. I don't know everything that goes on in tennis news that some people may see, but I find Nadal much more unlikeable. His grunting during matches is annoying, and if I was an opponent, I would have an issue with it. He also comes off very arrogant from what I see.

I have nothing against Federer. You hear about his great image, and from what I've observed, I can see why people say that. I have nothing negative to say about the guy, but he seems as interesting as the wallpaper. He doesn't make me emote as sporting fan. He's a great sporting figure and I acknowledge that, but he wouldn't be the first person I'd pick to root for.

I'm also not saying I find Djokovic incredibly likable, but I don't see why he's any less likable than the other two. From my uninformed take, I suspect it's a lot more to do with that he came along after the first two, and then there were less fans to attract at that time because many were already either Nadal or Federer fans.
 
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I know people say Djokovic is unlikeable, but I don't find him unlikeable. It may be that I'm not a die-hard tennis fan like some people are. I don't know everything that goes on in tennis news that some people may see, but I find Nadal much more unlikeable. His grunting during matches is annoying, and if I was an opponent, I would have an issue with it. He also comes off very arrogant from what I see.

I have nothing against Federer. You hear about his great image, and from what I've observed, I can see why people say that. I have nothing negative to say about the guy, but he seems as interesting as the wallpaper. He doesn't make me emote as sporting fan. He's a great sporting figure and I acknowledge that, but he wouldn't be the first person I'd pick to root for.

I'm also not saying I find Djokovic incredibly likable, but I don't see why he's any less likable than the other two. From my uninformed take, I suspect it's a lot more to do with that he came along after the first two, and then there were less fans to attract at that time because many were already either Nadal or Federer fans.
I think a some of it has to do with the fact that I think he's a little more openly confident in public than Fed or Rafa which automatically will draw ire from people and his dad also has said some stuff about Fed and Rafa that I think Novak takes the blame for. Add in that he kind of broke his way into the spotlight of the Fed/Rafa rivalry and has shown that he's at least as good if not better than both and I think that's why he's more polarizing. He was also a bit hot headed when he was younger which would also make people wary of him.
 
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Troubadour

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I think a some of it has to do with the fact that I think he's a little more openly confident in public than Fed or Rafa which automatically will draw ire from people and his dad also has said some stuff about Fed and Rafa that I think Novak takes the blame for. Add in that he kind of broke his way into the spotlight of the Fed/Rafa rivalry and has shown that he's at least as good if not better than both and I think that's why he's more polarizing. He was also a bit hot headed when he was younger which would also make people wary of him.

Well I sink (sorry), the main "problem" is, Fedal popularized tennis to the extent of quite literally dumb/unknowledgeable fans joining the party. I know, because when I excused myself from socializing in 99, as I had to watch Wimbledon finals, most of people around had no idea it was even played. 2002, same. 2003, same. 2006, still, mostly same. 2008? They were all watching.

Whenever big, mainstream crowds come, media rejoice, because masses are at least seemingly willing to swallow all sorts of narratives. To these, Fedal influenced first time backhand slappers, Fedal was not a big part of history of tennis. It was the tennis. And if Federer was the suave gentleman on and off the court, Nadal the awkward kid scratching his ear (the better case scenario) and animal on court, what was left for Djokovic who ruined tennis for so many casual fans?

Villain.

The media built him up just as they built up Fedal. I must admit, even I didn't like him interrupting the Fedal party I have grown accustomed to. How could I not. It went on like six years. I was always pointing out how Djokovic tries too hard... How boring his style was even compared with Nadal. Lately, I find myself liking him much more, if only for all the you-know-what he had to take over the years from all sides. For how he is able to overcome the fact stupid crowds cheer for his opponents like robots all the time. The point break came in the 2019 Wimbledon final. Then I learned Serbs have a word for that kind of attitude of not giving up, ever, no matter the circumstance. "Inat". It would be fine if the media depicted him as a fighter instead of it all, but I doubt they will.
 

Troubadour

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The real extending of careers didn't arrive to much later than that, however. Back in 2013, I did a piece of research into the average age of GS winners in the period between 1987 and 2013. Out of a sample of 106 GS tournaments, only 15 were won by players 28 or over, five of those by one player, Andre Agassi. If we eliminate Andre, only 10 times did it happen in a quarter century plus. With the exception of him, it was an extremely rare feat for anyone older than 27 to win a GS until the past eight or nine years.

I also got curious about the average age of Grand Slam winners in this sample, so I did two compilations: one an average for the ten years previous to Federer’s first slam, 1993 to 2002 (Why those years? Because once Federer and Nadal appear on the scene, there’s not much of a sample to test in terms of other players winning Slams). I also did a sample including all years from ’93 to 2013, excluding the big fish, Federer, Nadal, Sampras and Agassi, so as to get a better sense of how mere mortals do.

In the ten year sample, previous to Federer’s first Slam in 2003, here are the average ages of Grand Slam winners for each of the four majors in this ten year period (this includes Sampras and Agassi’s titles during this period):

Australian: 26.2
French: 24.8
Wimbledon: 25.3
US: 24.4

Overall average of Grand Slam winner: 25.1 years of age

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Excluding Federer, Nadal, Sampras, and Agassi, 1993 to 2013, the average age of the other 26 Grand Slam winners in this period is almost exactly 24 years of age.

The breakdown for this group (again excluding the Big Four) is:

30+ year olds: 0 (Petr Korda. ’98 Australian Open winner, missed by a few days)
28/29 years old: 3 players
26/27 years old: 5
24/25 years old: 7
22/23 years old: 5
20/21 years old: 6

Obviously a lot of reasons influence this change including conditioning, equipment, diet, three seemingly superhuman specimens as role models, and changes brought about by the ATP over the years. But it is a dramatic change. So I do think it is safe to say that many players now peak later than their earlier counterparts.

Let's not forget the mere fact that Rosewall's old man record has stood for nearly 50 years tells us something. Plus, if up until 2018 only 26 of 200 majors were won by thirty-somethings (and that already included 2017), what are the odds 16 out of 17 majors in a row are won by thirty-somethings at any point?

This is definitely not "cyclical". Big 3 are a total, total aberration.

To expound. Up until 2017, only 21 majors in almost 50 years of open era were won by thirty-somethings. Since 2017, in only 5 years, 16 majors were won by thirty-somethings. There's one Wimbledon cancelled, plus one US Open without Federer and Nadal, and Djokovic eventually (the only major won by a player under 30 in the last five years).

Outlier times.
 
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Well I sink (sorry), the main "problem" is, Fedal popularized tennis to the extent of quite literally dumb/unknowledgeable fans joining the party. I know, because when I excused myself from socializing in 99, as I had to watch Wimbledon finals, most of people around had no idea it was even played. 2002, same. 2003, same. 2006, still, mostly same. 2008? They were all watching.

Whenever big, mainstream crowds come, media rejoice, because masses are at least seemingly willing to swallow all sorts of narratives. To these, Fedal influenced first time backhand slappers, Fedal was not a big part of history of tennis. It was the tennis. And if Federer was the suave gentleman on and off the court, Nadal the awkward kid scratching his ear (the better case scenario) and animal on court, what was left for Djokovic who ruined tennis for so many casual fans?

Villain.

The media built him up just as they built up Fedal. I must admit, even I didn't like him interrupting the Fedal party I have grown accustomed to. How could I not. It went on like six years. I was always pointing out how Djokovic tries too hard... How boring his style was even compared with Nadal. Lately, I find myself liking him much more, if only for all the you-know-what he had to take over the years from all sides. For how he is able to overcome the fact stupid crowds cheer for his opponents like robots all the time. The point break came in the 2019 Wimbledon final. Then I learned Serbs have a word for that kind of attitude of not giving up, ever, no matter the circumstance. "Inat". It would be fine if the media depicted him as a fighter instead of it all, but I doubt they will.
I mean I don’t think completely blameless, but the media definitely did run with the narrative.
 

kihei

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Let's not forget the mere fact that Rosewall's old man record has stood for nearly 50 years tells us something. Plus, if up until 2018 only 26 of 200 majors were won by thirty-somethings (and that already included 2017), what are the odds 16 out of 17 majors in a row are won by thirty-somethings at any point?

This is definitely not "cyclical". Big 3 are a total, total aberration.

To expound. Up until 2017, only 21 majors in almost 50 years of open era were won by thirty-somethings. Since 2017, in only 5 years, 16 majors were won by thirty-somethings. There's one Wimbledon cancelled, plus one US Open without Federer and Nadal, and Djokovic eventually (the only major won by a player under 30 in the last five years).

Outlier times.
Reasonable points. Perhaps even slightly more impressive than Rosewall, who was seen as something of an anomaly at the time, was Pancho Gonzales, who played into his 40s. In fact, in 1969 at Wimbledon he engineered the greatest comeback perhaps in tennis history when he was 41-years-old and beat a young, talented 25-year-old Charlie Pasarell 22-24, 1-6, 16-14, 6-3, 11-9. I would reiterate, though, that while the Big Three, are indeed an aberration at the GS level, in general more players, the mere humans rather than the demigods, are now having success much later into their career than their 20th century and early 21st century counterparts. Given changes in fitness, nutrition, racket design, support staff, and the trend toward bigger, healthier people in general, I don't think that is at all that surprising. But it does mark a dfference that is no aberration and is likely here to stay.

You made a comment on the other page about Nole's lack of a single GS being really a "cosmetic" issue. I thought about that some. I think any win away from a record is more than cosmetic in any sport. In tennis, I would point to Federer's French Open title as a single win that was far more than simply cosmetic. Can you imagine the objections that Nole/Rafa supporters would have raised if Federer had failed to win a French Open, failed to win all the GSs at least once. His GOAT status would be significantly undermined; his supporters would be scoffed at. That French Open victory was hardly a cosmetic victory and Nole's eventual 20th, the one in which he joins his two great rivals in tennis history, will be far from cosmetic, too.
 

MsMeow

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I know people say Djokovic is unlikeable, but I don't find him unlikeable. It may be that I'm not a die-hard tennis fan like some people are. I don't know everything that goes on in tennis news that some people may see, but I find Nadal much more unlikeable. His grunting during matches is annoying, and if I was an opponent, I would have an issue with it. He also comes off very arrogant from what I see.

I have nothing against Federer. You hear about his great image, and from what I've observed, I can see why people say that. I have nothing negative to say about the guy, but he seems as interesting as the wallpaper. He doesn't make me emote as sporting fan. He's a great sporting figure and I acknowledge that, but he wouldn't be the first person I'd pick to root for.

I'm also not saying I find Djokovic incredibly likable, but I don't see why he's any less likable than the other two. From my uninformed take, I suspect it's a lot more to do with that he came along after the first two, and then there were less fans to attract at that time because many were already either Nadal or Federer fans.
He comes across as phony to me. Eating the Wimbledon grass, yelling to nobody in an empty stadium, doing that wave thing at the end of matches when nobody was there. Throw in the impersonations in the early days, some of which were cute but the Rafa one was really ignorant and disrespectful, throwing a tourney during covid that then gave a ton of people the disease. He's shot himself in the foot multiple times.
 

Hadoop

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Totally agree that his arrival in a Roger/Rafa world hurt his ability to win over the tennis community.

I would also say that Novak is both misunderstood by many folks (esp. those outside of his bubble) and many folks (esp. those outside of his bubble) are misunderstood by him. Certainly he is more tone-deaf than Federer and Nadal and part of that is his lack of self and world-awareness, but he also hasn't had as many interactions with people of influence/eminence in other domains as Roger and Rafa have.
 
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Totally agree that his arrival in a Roger/Rafa world hurt his ability to win over the tennis community.

I would also say that Novak is both misunderstood by many folks (esp. those outside of his bubble) and many folks (esp. those outside of his bubble) are misunderstood by him. Certainly he is more tone-deaf than Federer and Nadal and part of that is his lack of self and world-awareness, but he also hasn't had as many interactions with people of influence/eminence in other domains as Roger and Rafa have.
I think another one of the biggest differences too is that Rafa and Fed are kind of robotic when it comes to dealing with media, fans, etc. Where Novak comes off as more human and not as trained in being a PR robot.
 
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He comes across as phony to me. Eating the Wimbledon grass, yelling to nobody in an empty stadium, doing that wave thing at the end of matches when nobody was there. Throw in the impersonations in the early days, some of which were cute but the Rafa one was really ignorant and disrespectful, throwing a tourney during covid that then gave a ton of people the disease. He's shot himself in the foot multiple times.
As I said before some of it is definitely brought on himself but I do think the media has painted a picture of him where he can't win.
 
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kihei

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Just wait until Rafa and Roger retire. Then Nole will be embraced like a long lost cousin. His past sins, real and imagined, will be forgiven, and the crowd will now come to love him. I'd be willing to bet that happens.

Sidenote: I never found Federer boring. He'd probably be a great guy to get a beer with. And I have no problem with Nole whatsoever though he does seem to shoot himself in the foot frequently.
 

MsMeow

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I think another one of the biggest differences too is that Rafa and Fed are kind of robotic when it comes to dealing with media, fans, etc. Where Novak comes off as more human and not as trained in being a PR robot.
I find the opposite, I find Roger and Rafa to be really personable when interviewed. Rafa's English isnt great but he still articulates himself well and Roger speaks in multiple languages. I find Djokovic comes across as always trying to be liked and it doesn't work. Then he does weird things like holding a covid superspreader.
 
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