GDT: Freight Train or Train Wreck: PHL @ CAR

[MinJaBen]

Yeah, I couldn't tell if he was more dumping on Peters or Francis or both. At the end of the day, they both aren't getting it done. The only thing I don't know, is how much of what Francis has done was being on a leash from Karmanos (money wise) vs. just being very, very patient. Hopefully, we find out this offseason.

I know not everyone agrees, but I don't think bringing up a couple guys from Charlotte accomplishes much, if anything at all. Zykov looks to be terrible at even strength and I question if he can skate well enough to play in the NHL. Would Wallmark be any better than Ryan or Rask or Lindholm? When I've seen him he looks like a poor man's Rask to me. Foegele could probably help on the 4th line, but is that going to have much, if any impact on the outcome? The guys we got at the NHL level are the guys we got and that likely wasn't changing between the SJ game and this game (and unless they go on a run, likely won't until the off season).

I wouldn't have a problem with calling some of those guys up from the AHL, just don't see it as a big deal that they aren't. When your "best" players aren't producing, bringing up much lesser players doesn't move the needle much.

You are probably correct that the talent we have in Charlotte is not going to provide a meaningful boost (if at all) to what we have in Raleigh. However, I think you are missing the importance of just sitting guys and making them watch rookies take their spots for a night or two. I also think there are a few guys that just need to be sent down (cough, cough...PDG...cough, cough). He brings n-o-t-h-i-n-g. Letting guys from Charlotte rotate up to the big club as rewards for effort/play in his place is good reinforcement and can't bring any less to the team.

 

[Boom Boom Apathy]

You are probably correct that the talent we have in Charlotte is not going to provide a meaningful boost (if at all) to what we have in Raleigh. However, I think you are missing the importance of just sitting guys and making them watch rookies take their spots for a night or two. I also think there are a few guys that just need to be sent down (cough, cough...PDG...cough, cough). He brings n-o-t-h-i-n-g. Letting guys from Charlotte rotate up to the big club as rewards for effort/play in his place is good reinforcement and can't bring any less to the team.

I think you are over estimating the importance of it. If they can't be motivated by being in a playoff hunt and needing to win these games, then I don't think that will do the trick either. Like I said, I don't have a problem with them calling some guys up. Heck, I'd like to see Foegele in particular be called up so would be all for it. just think people are overestimating the impact it would have. I guess maybe it falls into the bucket of "just try something"

 

[Dishface]

Regarding the rearrange deck chairs, I guess that could be construed that way, but it also could be read as a statement regarding his team better give better effort, or it doesn't matter who is in the line-up.

That part right there may tell us a lot of what is going on with Francis, Peters, and may be Dundon too. If he can't light a spark with these guys, it doesn't matter if we trade anyone or bring someone up.

I'd say if we miss this year and next, Peters is obviously done.

 

[RodTheBawd]

I think you are over estimating the importance of it. If they can't be motivated by being in a playoff hunt and needing to win these games, then I don't think that will do the trick either. Like I said, I don't have a problem with them calling some guys up. Heck, I'd like to see Foegele in particular be called up so would be all for it. just think people are overestimating the impact it would have. I guess maybe it falls into the bucket of "just try something"

For me, its not so much "just try something " as it is "f*** these guys".

I'd say if we miss this year and next, Peters is obviously done.

Bold prediction.

 

[tarheelhockey]

I'm not sure how much of the comments from Peters are "shots" though. We like to read it that way, but every coach says things like Peters says. Heck, 2 weeks ago Babcock said essentially the same thing as Peters, that it's his job to get the team to play well enough to force Lou's hand to make a deal. It's what coaches do.

Regarding the rearrange deck chairs, I guess that could be construed that way, but it also could be read as a statement regarding his team better give better effort, or it doesn't matter who is in the line-up.

Maybe not “shots”, but starting with the EOY presser last season Peters has quietly put pressure on Francis to bring in better talent. Something has to give there, especially when the media picks up on the tension.

The problem for Francis is he can’t seem to find a dance partner, given the state of the trade market. So if he can’t change players, and the coach is building a narrative that he can’t succeed with this group, well... again, something has to give. Francis has one card that makes sense under these conditions, or he could continue to hold and let things play out.

 

[Unsustainable]

What about changing Brindy to someone who is completely psycho? And would go ballistic on the team.

 

[tarheelhockey]

Changing assistant coaches is a deck chairs move. Does Peters feel like his assistants are the issue? If not, there’s not much reason to shuffle them around and still leave the HC in place.

Now, hiring Chad LaRose as our new Director of Energy and Motivation? I’d be for that.

 

[Boom Boom Apathy]

Maybe not “shots”, but starting with the EOY presser last season Peters has quietly put pressure on Francis to bring in better talent. Something has to give there, especially when the media picks up on the tension.

Many times the media makes up the tension, not picks up on it. In fairness, Francis doesn't say much so they are left to speculate.

The problem for Francis is he can’t seem to find a dance partner, given the state of the trade market. So if he can’t change players, and the coach is building a narrative that he can’t succeed with this group, well... again, something has to give. Francis has one card that makes sense under these conditions, or he could continue to hold and let things play out.

I think Francis's chance to find a dance partner was the off season and to a lesser extent, the first couple of months of the season. Once that was gone, the likelihood of additional moves were slim. Like I showed before, there have been no material trades in the NHL between Christmas and now, and a big reason for that is so many teams still in the hunt and the salary cap so I don't think he has much choice but to hold and let things play out. They'd be foolish to trade for a rental right now (which is what most teams are offering) so unless you can get a deal for a guy under contract (ROR for instance), I don't see a move. Even a move like that I'd rather do in the off season as the prices would probably be better and we can get the guy into training camp and get a full season out of him.

I get that we want to bring in better players, just don't see it until the offseason. If Francis, with a new owner, doesn't make any substantial moves this off-season, then we'll know it wasn't Karmanos holding him back.

 

[Joe McGrath]

If the coach is telling the players they aren’t good enough as a group to compete, why would anyone want to play for that guy? Is that a guy you are going to go through a wall for to save his job after he very public has stated you aren’t good enough at yours? I’ve been on the defend Peters train but thinking about it more the effort level and commitment to details lacking makes sense.

Peters isn’t wrong, they do need better players. But that’s not your job big guy, and it’s certainly not your job to let everyone who will listen know you think the players aren’t good enough.

 

[GoldiFox]

Skinner has 3 goals in his last 21 games. Can Zykov or Foegele really be much worse in his place? Get someone in here who can score goals. The two top-5 AHL scorers (including #1) in your system seems like a pretty f***ing obvious place to start. But what do I know.

Luke hit the nail on the head. The Canes are averaging 1.4 goals per game so far during a 5 game home stand where they are trying to pack the seats with promotions. There couldn't be anything more disastrous to the Canes perceived entertainment value than this type of piss poor, boring offense. Nobody is coming back to see more of that. Two shots in a tied 3rd period is disgraceful.

 

[The Faulker 27]

That part right there may tell us a lot of what is going on with Francis, Peters, and may be Dundon too. If he can't light a spark with these guys, it doesn't matter if we trade anyone or bring someone up.

I'd say if we miss this year and next, Peters is obviously done.

Francis better be packing a bag too if that's the case.

 

[tarheelhockey]

Many times the media makes up the tension, not picks up on it. In fairness, Francis doesn't say much so they are left to speculate.

True, but I think you can just look at what we have as a roster and tell that it’s a tall order to ask any coach to make them a for-sure playoff team. Peters might not come right out and put Francis on blast, but it’s a safe bet that behind closed doors he’s managing expectations for what he can do with this group without a major step forward in the talent level. And he’s hinting at it in the press, which is not a good sign.

I do think Francis is in a catch-22 here. Pretty much everything he has done has made sense. Being patient makes sense. Declining to make a desperation trade makes sense. Likewise Peters has the team playing a system that makes sense for the personnel we have. The missing element is player quality, which we can’t fix by shuffling the front office.

I don’t think firing Peters makes us a better team in the long run. What it would likely do is spark enough of a surge to get us over the bubble, which is what Dundon probably wants and the fans definitely want. I don’t think it’s the right move, but it’s the logical move and I’m expecting it to happen pretty much any hour now.

 

[Joe McGrath]

The funny thing is, we aren’t even having this conversation (even if we should be) if Jordan’s OT Shot didn’t get picked out of mid air by two different Flyers.

 

[RodTheBawd]

If the coach is telling the players they aren’t good enough as a group to compete, why would anyone want to play for that guy? Is that a guy you are going to go through a wall for to save his job after he very public has stated you aren’t good enough at yours? I’ve been on the defend Peters train but thinking about it more the effort level and commitment to details lacking makes sense.

Peters isn’t wrong, they do need better players. But that’s not your job big guy, and it’s certainly not your job to let everyone who will listen know you think the players aren’t good enough.

Ehh... Was he really saying the players aren't good enough, or that their level of compete and commitment to details hasn't been good enough? While the former is true, I took it as the latter, which is fair.

 

[The Faulker 27]

If the coach is telling the players they aren’t good enough as a group to compete, why would anyone want to play for that guy? Is that a guy you are going to go through a wall for to save his job after he very public has stated you aren’t good enough at yours? I’ve been on the defend Peters train but thinking about it more the effort level and commitment to details lacking makes sense.

Peters isn’t wrong, they do need better players. But that’s not your job big guy, and it’s certainly not your job to let everyone who will listen know you think the players aren’t good enough.

I think Peters is making a desperate attempt to spark his club with his media comments, sort of like the "spark" he gave Lack with "making a f***ing save". Not sure he understands the motivational aspects of being a head coach. Peters is all about systems, but I feel like he lacks some serious people management skills. He's basically an assistant coach, trying to be a head coach. Just my opinion. I don't necessarily think they should throw him out, but he's certainly not getting it done so I doubt he's here if they aren't in much better shape by December of next season. There's plenty of blame to go around. It's not just on Peters.

 

[Chrispy]

I think Peters is making a desperate attempt to spark his club with his media comments, sort of like the "spark" he gave Lack with "making a ****ing save". Not sure he understands the motivational aspects of being a head coach. Peters is all about systems, but I feel like he lacks some serious people management skills. He's basically and assistant coach, trying to be a head coach. Just my opinion. I don't necessarily think they should throw him out, but he's certainly not getting it done so I doubt he's here if they aren't in much better shape by December of next season. There's plenty of blame to go around. It's not just on Peters.

The more I've thought about this after the Peters thread, the more I think a clean break at the end of the season makes the most sense. Can't afford to be in a catch-up position for a WC spot yet again next year. I don't know if a new coach can create that spark in the rest of this season, but I would give a new coach the off-season and training camp to implement a new system rather than trying Peters for one last month or two.

 

[tarheelhockey]

I think Peters is making a desperate attempt to spark his club with his media comments, sort of like the "spark" he gave Lack with "making a ****ing save". Not sure he understands the motivational aspects of being a head coach. Peters is all about systems, but I feel like he lacks some serious people management skills.

I dunno, in my personal interactions with Peters (limited, obviously) he’s struck me as a guy with above average people skills. He just seems like a naturally motivating guy, leaves you with positive energy.

This seems to be more along the lines of an “I’ve done everything I can to put this person in a position to succeed, and he’s just not up to the task” level of frustration. Which is about what you’d expect a manager to say right before either the employee gets fired or the manager himself gets fired.

 

[The Faulker 27]

The more I've thought about this after the Peters thread, the more I think a clean break at the end of the season makes the most sense. Can't afford to be in a catch-up position for a WC spot yet again next year. I don't know if a new coach can create that spark in the rest of this season, but I would give a new coach the off-season and training camp to implement a new system rather than trying Peters for one last month or two.

Good Luck. Great group of guys. Terrible at hockey though.

-Bill Peters

 

[Canes]

The funny thing is, we aren’t even having this conversation (even if we should be) if Jordan’s OT Shot didn’t get picked out of mid air by two different Flyers.

Yeah, we would be having this conversation in 2 months (at the latest, but mostly like after this team has another pathetic loss) instead once we miss the playoffs yet again.

2 shots in the 3rd period of a tied game vs. a divisional opponent we are directly competing against to make the playoffs. Even if we pulled out an undeserved win in OT, that's just incredibly pathetic.

 

[Lempo]

The timing on this is simply exquisite

This is what we in the Royal Navy call 'early start'.

 

[tarheelhockey]

The funny thing is, we aren’t even having this conversation (even if we should be) if Jordan’s OT Shot didn’t get picked out of mid air by two different Flyers.

Probably true, but everything I’ve heard about that third period (didn’t watch LOL) is that it resembled the Detroit and SJ games. Can’t have that in the third period of a must-win. The pee-wee level softie on Ward was just icing on a **** sandwich.

The more I've thought about this after the Peters thread, the more I think a clean break at the end of the season makes the most sense. Can't afford to be in a catch-up position for a WC spot yet again next year. I don't know if a new coach can create that spark in the rest of this season, but I would give a new coach the off-season and training camp to implement a new system rather than trying Peters for one last month or two.

I think if you do it, you literally do it today or tomorrow. We’re 1 point out with Vancouver and Colorado at home this weekend. 2 wins would completely change our outlook.

If you sit around and lose those games, with the intent of firing Peters later, you likely just threw away a good shot at the playoffs for no real reason.

If you sit around and win or split those games, you just made it harder on yourself to cut the cord from Peters.

I say just make the decision, tear off the band aid in one direction or the other (meaning an “I stand by Peters” statement in the media if that’s the case), and get to work immediately on next steps.

 

[The Faulker 27]

I dunno, in my personal interactions with Peters (limited, obviously) he’s struck me as a guy with above average people skills. He just seems like a naturally motivating guy, leaves you with positive energy.

This seems to be more along the lines of an “I’ve done everything I can to put this person in a position to succeed, and he’s just not up to the task” level of frustration. Which is about what you’d expect a manager to say right before either the employee gets fired or the manager himself gets fired.

I've never interacted with him, but I don't get the same sense when seeing his media presence over the course of this career here. That's not always a good indicator of who he really is though, so I understand that. Not that he isn't motivated. I totally think he is. I was just pointing out that he doesn't seem like a players type of coach, and maybe that's not what they need. Course I have no f***ing idea what this group needs.

 

[Boom Boom Apathy]

The funny thing is, we aren’t even having this conversation (even if we should be) if Jordan’s OT Shot didn’t get picked out of mid air by two different Flyers.

Except we say that way too often in way too many seasons.

 

[tarheelhockey]

I've never interacted with him, but I don't get the same sense when seeing his media presence over the course of this career here. That's not always a good indicator of who he really is though, so I understand that. Not that he isn't motivated. I totally think he is. I was just pointing out that he doesn't seem like a players type of coach, and maybe that's not what they need. Course I have no ****ing idea what this group needs.

I don’t get it from him on camera either. He’s more the kind of guy who really looks you in the eye and gives you a real handshake and asks how the kids are doing. Seems like he’d be a great guy to work for.

Of course, any style of leadership wears thin when things are going the wrong way. The best coaches in hockey get fired regularly. Wins are the only job performance metric.

What a change MIGHT do, beyond shaking things up emotionally, would be to give the next guy a chance to tweak our systems and take the next few opponents off guard with a different look. If that gives us a few extra chances per game, maybe it translates to a 5 or 6 game winning streak. And that’s likely enough to get us in.

 

[MinJaBen]

I do think Francis is in a catch-22 here. Pretty much everything he has done has made sense. Being patient makes sense. Declining to make a desperation trade makes sense.

At the start of the process, that stuff probably does make sense. But at some point, it should be pretty clear to most that we are no longer going to fail into the best talent (ala a top 3 or higher pick) and that unless we get stupid lucky (a Karlsson like talent @ pick 15) we aren't going to draft that talent either. So trying to make safe or winnable trade is very unlikely to bring that talent back. At some point (and I would argue we passed it already) Francis is going to need to make a trade where he over pays for that talent. It is a risk, but no more of a risk than doing nothing and watching guys in our system who are talented enough, but under-supported by equal talent, leave when they have the option at the ends of their contracts because there is no chance for success here.