Free Agents and Trade Thread - Training camp edition

[BertCorbeau]

I think the cringy thing is that Mirtle seems to effectively write off Liljegren after one 11-game sample despite looking extremely advanced for his age. It's just like writing off Sandin after he did not look like an NHLer for long stretches of his 28-game sample.

However, that is only if they are referring to his overall potential, and not what kind of role he could fill next year. Liljegren is not going to be able to fill a top 4 role next year out of the gate... He will likely only be able to be a 5 or 6 at best to start, and then maybe mid-season can rise up to be a #4 if things go well. However if they think his overall potential is only a #5 or #6 after his brief NHL sample, then there are not too many teams with defensive prospects with top 4 potential.

This and the questioner's comment about his lack of offensive instincts when his production at the AHL level, for his age, has been actually really good.

 

[stickty111]

I don't think they're cringey at all.

Mirtle is saying that Liljegren looked out of place when he was recalled this year. For all but maybe 1 game, I would say that is true.

What do you feel is incorrect about his takes?

He was already putting a cap on his NHL potential after 11 games. So yes they are cringy and incorrect.

The way I read that was he didn't see Liljegren as a top 4 defenseman in general. I can't comment anything beyond that, but it seemed like he only saw him as a #5-6.

I don't think it is based on the sample size of 11 games, although that could have played a factor.

If you read the comment, Mirtle was only basing it on the 11 games and not his Marlies time. Even if he wasn't, that makes Mirtle's stance even worse considering Liljegren has been an elite AHL defenceman since the 2nd half of last season. He was the Marlies MVP in the playoffs.
He is on the trajectory of being a top 4 NHL defenceman. Mirtle's player evaluations are awful anyways so it doesn't mean anything what he says.

Mirtle thinks advanced stats are the be all end all, so it's no surprise his opinion on Liljegren is awful.

 

[LeafParade]

I watched Liljegren with the Marlies and its hard to believe he won't end up a top 4 D in the NHL. The NHL stint doesn't provide the full picture. If the Leafs had a solid top 4, I would have no problem with him on the 3rd pair next year.

I think he would be better off in the NHL on a 3rd pairing than the AHL which seemed like child's play for him by the end of the season. The problem is that the Leafs have many ? on the backend so he won't be walking into a stable situation. We don't know yet if Dermott is a top 4 D or can play RD at a high level. We don't know what we have with Lehtonen, and then we have green rookies in Sandin & Liljegren.

As much as posters keep suggesting to get a #1 RHD, with all the cap constraints that seems very difficult.
In a perfect world, Dermott shows he can play with Reilly on the top pairing and Lehtonen shows he is a borderling top 4 D like Holl. Then the rookie swedes can be slowly integrated on the 3rd pairing.

 

[showtime8]

He was already putting a cap on his NHL potential after 11 games. So yes they are cringy and incorrect.

If you read the comment, Mirtle was only basing it on the 11 games and not his Marlies time. Even if he wasn't, that makes Mirtle's stance even worse considering Liljegren has been an elite AHL defenceman since the 2nd half of last season. He was the Marlies MVP in the playoffs.
He is on the trajectory of being a top 4 NHL defenceman. Mirtle's player evaluations are awful anyways so it doesn't mean anything what he says.

Mirtle thinks advanced stats are the be all end all, so it's no surprise his opinion on Liljegren is awful.

I don't think he was putting a cap on his potential. He can still say that he doesn't see him as a top 4 defenseman and also still think his 11 game stint wasn't good. It would be crazy to pigeonhole him into a #5 role based on an 11 game stretch.

Mirtle actually makes reference to his raw talents.

I've never been a huge fan of Liljegren, but I can understand that it would be in the best interest of the organization for him to succeed and become a top 4 defenseman. He'll need to be sheltered with a veteran defensive partner to ease him in the line-up, but there is no one on the team that could fill that role given that the imbalance on the back end.

You have guaranteed spots for these guys going into next season:

Rielly -
Muzzin - Holl

That only gives you the opportunity to either pair him on the back end with a Dermott/Sandin in this situation. And as I mentioned, I think that Liljegren succeeds with a veteran partner, so you're removing both Dermott and Sandin. You need depth in an organization, but at some point you need to decide who you'd like to invest your time into.

 

[TML1967]

I watched Liljegren with the Marlies and its hard to believe he won't end up a top 4 D in the NHL. The NHL stint doesn't provide the full picture. If the Leafs had a solid top 4, I would have no problem with him on the 3rd pair next year.

I think he would be better off in the NHL on a 3rd pairing than the AHL which seemed like child's play for him by the end of the season. The problem is that the Leafs have many ? on the backend so he won't be walking into a stable situation. We don't know yet if Dermott is a top 4 D or can play RD at a high level. We don't know what we have with Lehtonen, and then we have green rookies in Sandin & Liljegren.

As much as posters keep suggesting to get a #1 RHD, with all the cap constraints that seems very difficult.
In a perfect world, Dermott shows he can play with Reilly on the top pairing and Lehtonen shows he is a borderling top 4 D like Holl. Then the rookie swedes can be slowly integrated on the 3rd pairing.

IF, and its a big IF, Dermott can play the right side decently, it solves a good amount of issues.
You can platoon Muzzin-Holl and Morgan-Dermott.

Leaving you Sandin, Liljgren, Lehtonen, Marincin, Kivihalme guys fighting over 2 or 3 spots, assuming no one is added over the summer on a cheap veteran type deal.

Depending on if the Leafs dump cap to improve the back end, I could see a guy like Heed (1.5ish), TVR (1ish) or if they have the cap Gudas(3-3.5), Hamonic (2.5-3) or Demelo (2.5-3), brought on for a short term (1 or 2) year contract.

At least one or two of the top 10 RHD UFAs will be squeezed because of the flat cap and might take a short deal until it increase again/until Seattle comes on and creates 6 new D spots.

Essentially if you can bring in a decent defensive guy, you can run most pairs in most situations. No #1 pair, more like three 2nd pairs platooning.

Reilly -Dermott (50-50 starts)
Muzzin - Holl (Defensive zone starts)
Sandin - ?? (Offensive zone starts)

 

[Leaffan1991]

Brad Richardson for our 4th line C?
Good on faceoffs and penalty killer.
We need a pk C, he would be a good addition to our group.

 

[I am Canadian]

Nylander - Matthews - Hyman

Mikheyev - Tavares - Marner

Engvall - Kerfoot - Kapanen

Barbanov - Spezza - Goat

Korshkov


Rielly - Manson (2.05)

Muzzin - Holl

Lehtonen - Dermott

Rosen

Andersen
Campbell



Liljegren, 2nd, 2nd for Manson (50%) retained.


Would be cool to see them go for an all in move like this.

 

[LeafsOHLRangers98]

Nylander - Matthews - Hyman

Mikheyev - Tavares - Marner

Engvall - Kerfoot - Kapanen

Barbanov - Spezza - Goat

Korshkov


Rielly - Manson (2.05)

Muzzin - Holl

Lehtonen - Dermott

Rosen

Andersen
Campbell



Liljegren, 2nd, 2nd for Manson (50%) retained.


Would be cool to see them go for an all in move like this.

No way I'm giving up a 20 year old Liljegren + assets for Manson. He's basically Muzzin without the ability to chip in offensively, and Liljegren is trending towards being a cheap top 4 option long term here.

It would be an extremely short sighted move for an extremely overrated player on these boards.

 

[Americanadian]

I think Weegar is the best bet. Whether it be a trade or offer sheet. Offer sheet 5x4.225 for a 2nd. Dermott to LA for Roy, Johnsson to Detroit for Grewe or Berggren.

Nylander-Matthews-Kapanen
Mikheyev-Tavares-Marner
Robertson-Kerfoot-Hyman
Engvall-Spezza-Barabanov

Rielly-Weegar
Muzzin-Holl
Sandin-Roy

Andersen
Campbell

 

[CatchyTune]

I think Weegar is the best bet. Whether it be a trade or offer sheet. Offer sheet 5x4.225 for a 2nd. Dermott to LA for Roy, Johnsson to Detroit for Grewe or Berggren.

Nylander-Matthews-Kapanen
Mikheyev-Tavares-Marner
Robertson-Kerfoot-Hyman
Engvall-Spezza-Barabanov

Rielly-Weegar
Muzzin-Holl
Sandin-Roy

Andersen
Campbell

Yeesh, I cant take suggestions from someone with those forward lines

Kidding, I would like to see those moves happen. I just think they are a tad unlikely. I would also like to see Dermott on Riellys right side before committing to someone like Weegar long term at more than Dermott will command.

 

[stickty111]

Nylander - Matthews - Hyman

Mikheyev - Tavares - Marner

Engvall - Kerfoot - Kapanen

Barbanov - Spezza - Goat

Korshkov


Rielly - Manson (2.05)

Muzzin - Holl

Lehtonen - Dermott

Rosen

Andersen
Campbell



Liljegren, 2nd, 2nd for Manson (50%) retained.


Would be cool to see them go for an all in move like this.

This Manson obsession needs to stop.

 

[LeafChief]

This Manson obsession needs to stop.

Manson is VERY overrated on or board for some reason.

He had 1 good season.

 

[I am Canadian]

This Manson obsession needs to stop.

He just fits what we need. Rielly needs a steady partner like he had with Hainsey. The Barrie expirement has failed.

If can get Anaheim to retain it gives us a #1 (Rielly), and two #2/3rd tweener D in Manson & Muzzin. Sitting on the same defense we have this year would be a disaster. Ideally we could get him without losing Liljegren.

Curious what suggestions others have for realistic upgrades.

 

[I am Canadian]

I was wondering. What D Man we could get with a package made out of the following


Trade Kappy for a late 1st in 2020 and a 3rd

trade bracco and johnson for a 2nd and 4th


late 2020 1st(kappy trade)
2nd(johnson)
3rd (kappy)
rights to Dermott

for

Paryko? Pesce? Lindholm?


we clear cap room and are able to easily replace the wing depth from within.

None of those teams are trading players for futures. Gotta find an older team looking for a rebuild. Anaheim fits but Lindholm is in their future plans.

 

[SeaOfBlue]

He just fits what we need. Rielly needs a steady partner like he had with Hainsey. The Barrie expirement has failed.

If can get Anaheim to retain it gives us a #1 (Rielly), and two #2/3rd tweener D in Manson & Muzzin. Sitting on the same defense we have this year would be a disaster. Ideally we could get him without losing Liljegren.

Curious what suggestions others have for realistic upgrades.

The issue is that he has only had one year where he was a good #2/3 defenseman. Otherwise, he has mostly been a glorified #4.

 

[kb]

He just fits what we need. Rielly needs a steady partner like he had with Hainsey. The Barrie expirement has failed.

If can get Anaheim to retain it gives us a #1 (Rielly), and two #2/3rd tweener D in Manson & Muzzin. Sitting on the same defense we have this year would be a disaster. Ideally we could get him without losing Liljegren.

Curious what suggestions others have for realistic upgrades.

Realistic involves cap considerations. They can't fit him in without subtracting 2 players from the top-9. Not sure they are ready to go down that road just yet for Manson, as he is a significantly lesser version of Muzzin today.

 

[Morgs]

A lot of people will dislike this but what about Nylander as our 3C and trading Kerfoot and Johnsson for either D or picks?
Saves us a bunch of money and we don't need to throw 2 plus on a 3C.

Robertson Matthews Hyman
Mikheyev Tavares Marner
Engvall Nylander Kapanen
Clifford Spezza Barabanov
Gauthier

Rielly- Tanev,Demelo,Brodie
Muzzin Holl
Sandin Dermott
Lehtonen Liljegren

Matthews line takes on the hard matchups. Two work horses on his line who are good defensively.
Tavares line purely Offense
Nylander line both Offense and Defense. Engvall and Kapanen are good defensively.
Fourth line should be played 8 minutes a night.

If it doesn't work Engvall can take the 3C or Spezza.

I'd rahter see Nylander play 20 minutes on Matthews/Tavares wing than play 14(?) minutes with inferior players.

 

[Kurtz]

The issue is that he has only had one year where he was a good #2/3 defenseman. Otherwise, he has mostly been a glorified #4.

A big, mean, defensive #4 RHD would be a good fit next to Morgan. Younger, meaner Hainsey.

 

[I am Canadian]

EDIT:

 

[SeaOfBlue]

A big, mean, defensive #4 RHD would be a good fit next to Morgan. Younger, meaner Hainsey.

Sure, but the other consideration that needs to be taken into account is price. Liljegren is probably good enough to be on our bottom pairing next year, and could be realistically better than Manson within the next 2-3 years (while also being cheaper). Manson is going to be 30 soon, and only has 2 years left on his deal. If he plays like he has the past two years, he is not worth the price, even with 50% retained.

 

[nuck]

A big, mean, defensive #4 RHD would be a good fit next to Morgan. Younger, meaner Hainsey.

He has to be better than he has been the last two years to be worth it but obviously the Ducks have been kind of bad the last couple of seasons and he has had some injuries. I would bet a healthy Manson would be better but enough to justify his cost? If he is really just a #4 then so is Holl so not really the silver bullet for a Rielly partner.

They would be better than with Barrie but for the same $4Mish would they be better than with Hamonic or Brodie or Tanev?

• Q1 is will they find a way to invest $4-5M for the solution at RD?
• Q2 is do they like one or more of those FAs as much as Manson?
• Q3 will that FA come for a deal they can afford?

If the above is true then they will go FA. He may be a possiblity but only if they see a separation between him and the others. More likely only if they get shut out in the FA market and there may be other less obvious options in mind for KD. I would think FAs first, trade assets for some cheaper RD that helps the cap second, Manson as maybe a third option and if the Ducks retain $ the cost shoots up and I already think he might require a bit of an overpay. If they get smoked in the first round I could see a more significant reshuffling as Dubas works to keep his job.

 

[Morgs]

Sure, but the other consideration that needs to be taken into account is price. Liljegren is probably good enough to be on our bottom pairing next year, and could be realistically better than Manson within the next 2-3 years (while also being cheaper). Manson is going to be 30 soon, and only has 2 years left on his deal. If he plays like he has the past two years, he is not worth the price, even with 50% retained.

Yeah, there's no way the guy should be on our radar unless the cost to acquire is laughably low. He hasn't played well since Lindholm was his primary partner and arguably a top-10 D in the league.

Wouldn't mind him, but I can't see a guy with his skill set being a major plus for the style of hockey we want to play, regardless of his physicality.

 

[I am Canadian]

Realistic involves cap considerations. They can't fit him in without subtracting 2 players from the top-9. Not sure they are ready to go down that road just yet for Manson, as he is a significantly lesser version of Muzzin today.

Hence in my proposal I suggested asking Anaheim to retain him and us pay a little more. All they have to do is trade Johnsson to fit him in if Anaheim is willing to retain. Also, with our offensive firepower are you really that afraid to trade 3rd liners for a reinforced defense? Matthews & Tavares lines should not need to be supported by multiple 3M+ 3rd line players.

I cannot fathom going into next season with no real partner for Rielly again because we are afraid of moving on from third liners - that is ridiculous to me.

 

[I am Canadian]

A big, mean, defensive #4 RHD would be a good fit next to Morgan. Younger, meaner Hainsey.

^ Exactly. Rielly was clearly at his best with Hainsey supporting him.

 

[rumman]

Realistic involves cap considerations. They can't fit him in without subtracting 2 players from the top-9. Not sure they are ready to go down that road just yet for Manson, as he is a significantly lesser version of Muzzin today.

can't fix the D with 50% of your cap going to 4 players, none of them defensemen................