Frazer McLaren

[daveleaf]

You take away this element of the game, the game will be run by guys like Kaletta, Cooke and Avery. Teams will have a super pest to try and get guys off their game and injure players. Just think of what will happen to the game if we loose the fighting element. Guys will get hurt-part of the game. Ask Kyper if he would turn in his career for fighting for running his old mans restaurant?

It's the only way the game remains accountable because we have decades of proof that officiating can't.

 

[Drugstorecowboi]

We need our fourth line in place. McLaren/ McClement / Orr. I think when Frattin & Lupul comeback we should look into sitting Stecks or Grabovski (centre) and Kulimen. Grabovski seriously needs a wake up call.... the guy makes more money Kessel...for 5.5 mil per I have no idea why Leaf fans aren't all over this guy.... he needs to play better or he needs to go.

And Kulimen? Scores 30 goals..gets a raise ...scores 7... sure he can forecheck..but so can a lot of guys on the waiver wire.... sick of excuses and fan boy love for this guy.

I just keep hearing excuses and false justification for Grabs/Kuli's horrible/sloppy/under achieving play. These guys need to re-evalute themselves and potentially sit out a few games ...so they can actually contribute like they are suppose too. JVR / Kadri / CMAC can easily replace, and have replaced Grabs/Kuli/insert whatever winger they are working with at the time - as secondary scoring......

 

[hockeyfanz*]

Goon or no goon it is part of hockey. The kid dropped his gloves first and he should have known better. Were the Sens upset a couple of years ago when they got to Orr the first time? Say whatever you want, you need tough guys on your team that can fight to open space. Reason why Seguin has space is because of Lucic, reason why Marchand has space is part in parcel to Chara. It's part of the game. We got knocked around last year because no one could stick up for our players, now, we have that element in our game and our players are benefiting from it. I make no apologies for it.

This argument has been going on for years and years and years...and right now you compared Lucic and Chara to the likes of Orr and McLaren...that is an absolute joke. The team had Brown and Orr last year and they sucked. And the year before that and the year before that. Im not an advocate of removing fighting from the game at all....and I believe you miss the point completely. Guys like Orr and McLaren will be exploited by good teams...They are lousy hockey players. I mean if they weren't so one dimensional I could accept them more for sure. Tie Dummi was a great enforcer and he actually scored 15 goals one year. I think if you add McLaren Orr and Brown's career goal totals you may reach 15. Who were the goons on the last few cup finalists? NJ vs LA last year...dont remember any goons in that series. How bout Bruins Nucks the previous year? No goons unless you consider Chara, Thornton or Chara a goon. Blackhawks vs. Flyers? Ben Eager vs Jody Shelley? Yeah real impact players. I think its way over stated. The best team in hockey is easily the Chicago Black Hawks this season. Without a doubt. Who are their goons? Out of their regulars ...Duncan Keith leads the team with PIMs...27.

I know Fraser McLaren or Colton Orr will take care of Duncan Keith when the Leafs have a Cup showdown against those intimidating Hawks....

 

[hockeyfanz*]

We need our fourth line in place. McLaren/ McClement / Orr. I think when Frattin & Lupul comeback we should look into sitting Stecks or Grabovski (centre) and Kulimen. Grabovski seriously needs a wake up call.... the guy makes more money Kessel...for 5.5 mil per I have no idea why Leaf fans aren't all over this guy.... he needs to play better or he needs to go.

And Kulimen? Scores 30 goals..gets a raise ...scores 7... sure he can forecheck..but so can a lot of guys on the waiver wire.... sick of excuses and fan boy love for this guy.

I just keep hearing excuses and false justification for Grabs/Kuli's horrible/sloppy/under achieving play. These guys need to re-evalute themselves and potentially sit out a few games ...so they can actually contribute like they are suppose too. JVR / Kadri / CMAC can easily replace, and have replaced Grabs/Kuli/insert whatever winger they are working with at the time - as secondary scoring......

Burke got fleeced by Grabo's agent. He is not worth anywhere near the money he got paid. Nowhere. But because the Leafs are so weak down the middle, Burke was caught between a rock and a hard place and Grabo's agent took full advantage coming off a career year. Should have traded him then. Kulemin had an anomaly season the year he scored 30. He is not a 30 goal scorer. He will be lucky to reach 20 again.

 

[ConnorTO]

Burke got fleeced by Grabo's agent. He is not worth anywhere near the money he got paid.

we no what he's capable of

he's struggling with production
but on a good night, he and Kulu can contribute

 

[hockeyfanz*]

we no what he's capable of

he's struggling with production
but on a good night, he and Kulu can contribute

Grabo is 29 years old. His 3 best years have been 58, 51 and 48 points. Is he really a 5.5M dollar player? Be honest with yourself man.

 

[Hero]

Good size, his skating is fine. He fights, he checks, he's a decent 4th liner.

 

[Kyle Doobas*]

Is he really a 5.5M dollar player?

Not to derail the thread, but you have to look at it in context. At the time of the signing, players of a similar calibre were absolutely being signed to contracts in the realm of $5M, and Grabovski had all kinds of leverage in the negotiations, being a pending UFA and our only true top-six center. You don't just sabotage your already-weak depth up the middle over an extra $0.5-1M.

And for the record, the Ducks won the Cup with Brad May and Scott Thornton as regulars on the fourth line, with George Parros getting in a few games as well. Good teams didn't seem to find a way to exploit that, in fact one could argue that it was those very players that helped the Ducks to exploit a lack of mental and physical toughness in their opponents.

 

[GilmourClarkScores]

McLaren is the exact type of player you want on your team for divisional battles. He flexed his Leafs muscle vs the Habs, the Sens, and hopefully the Bruins tonight. No more Leafs being pushed around like rag dolls a la Komisarek.

 

[Antropovsky]

When we first picked him up, I thought he was a little lanky, and would likely be man handled by bigger stronger opponents. I was wrong, he's dusted people off regularly, fairly easily.

I like Orr, but personally I would've liked to have seen McLaren given some time on the 3rd line instead of Orr, I think McLaren has more offensive upside.

 

[hockeyfanz*]

Not to derail the thread, but you have to look at it in context. At the time of the signing, players of a similar calibre were absolutely being signed to contracts in the realm of $5M, and Grabovski had all kinds of leverage in the negotiations, being a pending UFA and our only true top-six center. You don't just sabotage your already-weak depth up the middle over an extra $0.5-1M.

And for the record, the Ducks won the Cup with Brad May and Scott Thornton as regulars on the fourth line, with George Parros getting in a few games as well. Good teams didn't seem to find a way to exploit that, in fact one could argue that it was those very players that helped the Ducks to exploit a lack of mental and physical toughness in their opponents.

Burke got fleeced. Who are these players of similar calibre please? Lets compare their career stats with Grabo shall we or their PPG average....I am agreeing that Grabo had Burke by the balls because of the position the GM put himself in being so damn weak at the C spot both on the big club and in the system. He could have traded him. He should have traded him.

As for your Ducks example..one team you can cite and probably not many more because you and all the goonheads know Im right. And for the record both Brad May and SHAWN Thornton were (are) pretty decent hockey players with some skill. No argument if you have those guys on your fourth line. George Parros is a joke and he played in 5 playoff games that year.

And although those Ducks 4th liners have some skill they still combined for zero goals and 1 assist between them (May and Thornton)..the Ducks were a tough team. Getzlaf and Perry, two star players certainly dont need anybody to fight their battles. Nor does Moen, Pronger or Penner. For such little production from the 4th line (very close to nothing)..I'd say the Ducks won the Cup inspite of the poor production from the grinding line, although I do appreciate the Thortnons and Mays of the league.

 

[Parkdale]

I'm pleasantly surprised that the Leafs could pick up McLaren from waivers or that someone else, especially out West where they have seen more of him did not grab him before Toronto. Perhaps it's because there is a Winnipeg connection between Carlyle and McLaren that Randy saw some more potential where others did not. (It was mentioned that McLaren played for the same amateur team (different years) as Carlyle's son and knew a bit about him.

 

[AvroArrow]

guys a beast

 

[theTTC]

He's the worst or maybe second worst hockey player on the Leafs. No I'm not impressed. It's amazing how a couple of useless scraps can endear you so much to a fan base that they will completely overlook everything else.

So what? Someone has to be "the worst or second worst hockey player" on any team. Our tough guys are the reason Boston, New York, Pittsburgh, and Chris Neil haven't smashed Kessel and Co. into meek submission. I guess you preferred Ron Wilson and Paul Maurice's pacifist lineups where the fourth line looked like the first line, and the humiliation that went with it?

Who are you, a beat writer troll for the Star or Sun, the guy who doesn't have to pay $400 for his ticket into the game and now has nothing scathingly negative to write about since we're doing awesome as a team?

 

[Kyle Doobas*]

Burke got fleeced. Who are these players of similar calibre please?

Olli Jokinen @ $4.5M and Tuomo Ruutu @ $4.75M, then you also had guys like Jiri Hudler and David Jones getting $4M. Grabovski is a arguably a superior, more consistent player than any one of them. If you don't want to go back to some early 2012 threads and read what people's reactions were at the time, I'll summarize for you: expected to sign for $4.5-5M, but got himself a slightly better deal as a result of not being internally replaceable. Not a great signing, but certainly nothing to piss and moan about, at least not at the time.

As for your Ducks example..one team you can cite

Do I really need to cite more than one to prove that a team can win that way? In any case, the 2010-11 Bruins come to mind as well. And that's not even taking into account the myriad of other teams that never won a championship but still had success in the regular season and went deep in the playoffs with 'goons' in their lineup.

George Parros played in 5 playoff games that year.

Right, that's why I said "a few games"..?

And although those Ducks 4th liners have some skill they still combined for zero goals and 1 assist between them (May and Thornton)..the Ducks were a tough team. Getzlaf and Perry, two star players certainly dont need anybody to fight their battles. Nor does Moen, Pronger or Penner. For such little production from the 4th line (very close to nothing)..I'd say the Ducks won the Cup inspite of the poor production from the grinding line, although I do appreciate the Thortnons and Mays of the league.

This is all stemming from the silly notion that every player's job is to produce offensively, and that there's no other way to make a contribution. For all the talent they had, intimidation and toughness was that team's M.O.. They lead the league in fighting majors and penalty minutes through both the regular season and the playoffs. They didn't win despite anything - they had a boatload of talent, even more toughness and everyone played their role to a T.

 

[hockeyfanz*]

Olli Jokinen @ $4.5M and Tuomo Ruutu @ $4.75M, then you also had guys like Jiri Hudler and David Jones getting $4M. Grabovski is a arguably a superior, more consistent player than any one of them. If you don't want to go back to some early 2012 threads and read what people's reactions were at the time, I'll summarize for you: expected to sign for $4.5-5M, but got himself a slightly better deal as a result of not being internally replaceable. Not a great signing, but certainly nothing to piss and moan about, at least not at the time.


Do I really need to cite more than one to prove that a team can win that way? In any case, the 2010-11 Bruins come to mind as well. And that's not even taking into account the myriad of other teams that never won a championship but still had success in the regular season and went deep in the playoffs with 'goons' in their lineup.


Right, that's why I said "a few games"..?


This is all stemming from the silly notion that every player's job is to produce offensively, and that there's no other way to make a contribution. For all the talent they had, intimidation and toughness was that team's M.O.. They lead the league in fighting majors and penalty minutes through both the regular season and the playoffs. They didn't win despite anything - they had a boatload of talent, even more toughness and everyone played their role to a T.

What an awful rebuttal...Jokinen Ruutu and Hudler have all been far more effective career players than "Grabo"..please. And not even in the same ballpark salary wise further proving the s0d0mizing that Burke took on that signing. Still no examples of a 5.5M dollar player equivalent to Grabo.

Dont cite the Bruins please..Excellent coached team with an abundance of talent and not a single player on their roster who is a one-dimensional goon. Not one. Same with the Ducks you spoke about except for Parros who was pretty much a non participant when the games mattered. Oh boy I wonder why?

And expecting production from your 4th line is not a silly notion at all...Its called smart hockey. Not gonna find 20 goal scorers on the 4th line but at least some players with skill who could surprise with some big goals. You really see Orr/McLaren in a big game scoring a big goal? PFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFT.
And I agree that the Ducks had team toughness which is different than a couple of neandrethals playing 3 minutes a night looking to decapitate somebody. Why you arguing with me? I'm right and you know it. You know exaclty what Im talking about too. You cant even insult me ala Don Cherry for wanting "sissy hockey" where nobody hits and nobody fights. That is hyperbole that is constantly being spun by goonheads. Consider this..my all time favorite overall player is Wendel Clark...the best fighter pound for pound I have ever witnessed wearing the blue and white.

I watched hockey in the 70s when goons ruled and bench brawling was the norm. I really really dont miss it. I hated watching those Flyers teams winning the Cup. Weasels like Bobby Clarke hiding behind Goons like Saleski and the Hammer SHultz and Mad Dog Kelley. Sounds like the freakin WWF. I don't think hockey would suffer one bit without goonery...maybe even catapult into a top 4 sport in NA....Because really it is the best game in the world for those in the know..too bad in certain markets it only makes the news when somebody assaults another player in a violent fashion.

 

[pucci2001]

We need our fourth line in place. McLaren/ McClement / Orr. I think when Frattin & Lupul comeback we should look into sitting Stecks or Grabovski (centre) and Kulimen. Grabovski seriously needs a wake up call.... the guy makes more money Kessel...for 5.5 mil per I have no idea why Leaf fans aren't all over this guy.... he needs to play better or he needs to go.

And Kulimen? Scores 30 goals..gets a raise ...scores 7... sure he can forecheck..but so can a lot of guys on the waiver wire.... sick of excuses and fan boy love for this guy.

I just keep hearing excuses and false justification for Grabs/Kuli's horrible/sloppy/under achieving play. These guys need to re-evalute themselves and potentially sit out a few games ...so they can actually contribute like they are suppose too. JVR / Kadri / CMAC can easily replace, and have replaced Grabs/Kuli/insert whatever winger they are working with at the time - as secondary scoring......

Kulemin didn't get a 30 goal scorer's raise, he makes the type of money he deserves IMO. Decent 3rd liner contract and his defensive play is needed, he plays the PK as well which as we know is vastly improved. Kulemin however has lost his touch around the net that he had earlier in his career but he is still earning his money in other ways.
As for Grabo he has been really boom or bust this season but more often than not I notice him playing hard but I agree he isn't playing to his contract's value. We can't ever consider benching him though, he is miles better than steckle. I'd like to see him improve on the draw more than anything the points will come back, especially if he is winning more offensive draws or at least he could get some possession in our end off the faceoff...I'd settle for that, not asking for a scoring explosion.
He is on pace for 20 points this year which I think he will easily accomplish probably end up around 30 which in a short season still equates to about a 50 point season which isn't bad from a 2nd(3rd?) line center, but it leaves room for improvement.

 

[KULEMINakajesus]

some people can really complain about anything..

Dude has been great imo, I guess that one bad giveaway is still resonating in everyones mind.

Great pickup.

 

[Faltorvo]

What an awful rebuttal...Jokinen Ruutu and Hudler have all been far more effective career players than "Grabo"..please. And not even in the same ballpark salary wise further proving the s0d0mizing that Burke took on that signing. Still no examples of a 5.5M dollar player equivalent to Grabo.

Dont cite the Bruins please..Excellent coached team with an abundance of talent and not a single player on their roster who is a one-dimensional goon. Not one. Same with the Ducks you spoke about except for Parros who was pretty much a non participant when the games mattered. Oh boy I wonder why?

And expecting production from your 4th line is not a silly notion at all...Its called smart hockey. Not gonna find 20 goal scorers on the 4th line but at least some players with skill who could surprise with some big goals. You really see Orr/McLaren in a big game scoring a big goal? PFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFT.
And I agree that the Ducks had team toughness which is different than a couple of neandrethals playing 3 minutes a night looking to decapitate somebody. Why you arguing with me? I'm right and you know it. You know exaclty what Im talking about too. You cant even insult me ala Don Cherry for wanting "sissy hockey" where nobody hits and nobody fights. That is hyperbole that is constantly being spun by goonheads. Consider this..my all time favorite overall player is Wendel Clark...the best fighter pound for pound I have ever witnessed wearing the blue and white.

I watched hockey in the 70s when goons ruled and bench brawling was the norm. I really really dont miss it. I hated watching those Flyers teams winning the Cup. Weasels like Bobby Clarke hiding behind Goons like Saleski and the Hammer SHultz and Mad Dog Kelley. Sounds like the freakin WWF. I don't think hockey would suffer one bit without goonery...maybe even catapult into a top 4 sport in NA....Because really it is the best game in the world for those in the know..too bad in certain markets it only makes the news when somebody assaults another player in a violent fashion.

Sorry HF, no way we gonna see eye to eye on this with this team.

gimme those 2 cavemen on my 4th right now, hands down.

There is really no team toughness from the other forwards or D save for Fraser.

We don't have the luxury of well rounded tough players like Getz/Perr/Backs/Luc/char,brown,Hartn.

I can't stand to watch a team that has no push back.

 

[Faltorvo]

Kulemin didn't get a 30 goal scorer's raise, he makes the type of money he deserves IMO. Decent 3rd liner contract and his defensive play is needed, he plays the PK as well which as we know is vastly improved. Kulemin however has lost his touch around the net that he had earlier in his career but he is still earning his money in other ways.
As for Grabo he has been really boom or bust this season but more often than not I notice him playing hard but I agree he isn't playing to his contract's value. We can't ever consider benching him though, he is miles better than steckle. I'd like to see him improve on the draw more than anything the points will come back, especially if he is winning more offensive draws or at least he could get some possession in our end off the faceoff...I'd settle for that, not asking for a scoring explosion.
He is on pace for 20 points this year which I think he will easily accomplish probably end up around 30 which in a short season still equates to about a 50 point season which isn't bad from a 2nd(3rd?) line center, but it leaves room for improvement.

He is on a pathetic 34 point over 82 game pace.

This is not even close to acceptable after signing that fat 5.5 million D a per contract.

You think he will get 30 THIS year? when he is on pace for 34 over 82 games?

 

[Kyle Doobas*]

What an awful rebuttal...Jokinen Ruutu and Hudler have all been far more effective career players than "Grabo"..please. And not even in the same ballpark salary wise further proving the s0d0mizing that Burke took on that signing. Still no examples of a 5.5M dollar player equivalent to Grabo.

Dont cite the Bruins please..Excellent coached team with an abundance of talent and not a single player on their roster who is a one-dimensional goon. Not one. Same with the Ducks you spoke about except for Parros who was pretty much a non participant when the games mattered. Oh boy I wonder why?

And expecting production from your 4th line is not a silly notion at all...Its called smart hockey. Not gonna find 20 goal scorers on the 4th line but at least some players with skill who could surprise with some big goals. You really see Orr/McLaren in a big game scoring a big goal? PFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFT.
And I agree that the Ducks had team toughness which is different than a couple of neandrethals playing 3 minutes a night looking to decapitate somebody. Why you arguing with me? I'm right and you know it. You know exaclty what Im talking about too. You cant even insult me ala Don Cherry for wanting "sissy hockey" where nobody hits and nobody fights. That is hyperbole that is constantly being spun by goonheads. Consider this..my all time favorite overall player is Wendel Clark...the best fighter pound for pound I have ever witnessed wearing the blue and white.

I watched hockey in the 70s when goons ruled and bench brawling was the norm. I really really dont miss it. I hated watching those Flyers teams winning the Cup. Weasels like Bobby Clarke hiding behind Goons like Saleski and the Hammer SHultz and Mad Dog Kelley. Sounds like the freakin WWF. I don't think hockey would suffer one bit without goonery...maybe even catapult into a top 4 sport in NA....Because really it is the best game in the world for those in the know..too bad in certain markets it only makes the news when somebody assaults another player in a violent fashion.

I'm still not entirely sure what your main point here is. Every time I respond, instead of directly addressing what I've said, you just shift the goal posts. Can you establish what your position is first instead of leaving me this breadcrumb trail to try and put together what the hell you're talking about?

On a side note I'm interested to know why you feel Jokinen, Ruutu and Hudler were superior players to Grabovski as of last year.

 

[hockeyfanz*]

Sorry HF, no way we gonna see eye to eye on this with this team.

gimme those 2 cavemen on my 4th right now, hands down.

There is really no team toughness from the other forwards or D save for Fraser.

We don't have the luxury of well rounded tough players like Getz/Perr/Backs/Luc/char,brown,Hartn.

I can't stand to watch a team that has no push back.

I dont expect to see eye-eye on every topic, player or coach etc...but my point is the Leafs NEED to somehow acquire those players you list to be truly tough and competetive enough to contend for the Cup. I don't even dislike the goons like Orr and McLaren..tough job to do that and nobody should envy those players. I just dont think they are necessary to be successful.

 

[jimmycarter]

i was at that leafs sabres game...i said to my dad...i dunno who is gonna fight scott with colton orr out..dunno if mclaren will want to...boy was i wrong.

 

[Hawaiinleaf]

To the chaps who keep driveling about not having McLaren & Orr and we would be better

Where were you last season?? When we had no sandpaper in the lineup like you suggest....

 

[Inconceivable]

I dont expect to see eye-eye on every topic, player or coach etc...but my point is the Leafs NEED to somehow acquire those players you list to be truly tough and competetive enough to contend for the Cup. I don't even dislike the goons like Orr and McLaren..tough job to do that and nobody should envy those players. I just dont think they are necessary to be successful.

Mclaren certainly has been useful, he caused Ottawa to be short a forward for the entire game!