Frank Selke - can wingers win this?

FanHabtic*

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I notice that the Selke is typically awarded to the best defensive / 2-way centerman in the league. The last time a winger won this award was in 2003 (Jere Lehtinen). While centerman often are charged with overall defensive responsibility for their line, by nature of the position, i still think that some wingers should be under consideration.

For instance, Max Pacioretty is an underrated defensive winger. Leads Habs players in +/- by a huge margin. By nearly triple the margin of the closest Hab. (Note: i get that +/- is not a true defensive stat, however when you use it to compare with players on the same team, then it can be used in that fashion). Max is also an excellent penalty killer and is on the Habs top PK unit.

As soon as Galchenyuk was promoted to the top-line center on the Habs, his +/- skyrocketed by + 6. Pacioretty is the reason why.

Anyways, i'm sure there are many other wingers who should be given consideration for this accolade. Your thoughts?
 

billybudd

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The guy would have to be pulling shadow duties. Zetterberg (he's playing wing this year, no?) would have the best chance. Center's just a more demanding position defensively, unless a wing is assigned as a shadow.

It's a shame that Hossa didn't play center. Probably cost him a couple of these.
 

FanHabtic*

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I am pretty sure the criteria has not changed since then.

I understand that but i think too much emphasis is given to centermen. I think there are some wingers in the league who drive two-way play on their line. Max Pacioretty is one of them. He has proven this playing with Desharnais and Galchenyuk - neither of whom are stalwarts defensively.
 

FanHabtic*

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The guy would have to be pulling shadow duties. Zetterberg (he's playing wing this year, no?) would have the best chance. Center's just a more demanding position defensively, unless a wing is assigned as a shadow.

It's a shame that Hossa didn't play center. Probably cost him a couple of these.

I agree - Hossa is exactly the type of player who should have been in strong consideration for this award.
 

Raspewtin

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The only winger in the league currently worthy of a Selke is Hossa IMO.
 

Oan

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I am pretty sure the criteria has not changed since then.

In the minds of general hockey public (see this forum) and voters, it has. You have to put up at least 60 points nowadays to be even considered, and only then they start looking at your defensive play. When Lehtinen won his awards, it clearly wasn't about points back then.
 

FanHabtic*

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In the minds of general hockey public (see this forum) and voters, it has. You have to put up at least 60 points nowadays to be even considered, and only then they start looking at your defensive play. When Lehtinen won his awards, it clearly wasn't about points back then.

I agree. Back when Carbonneau was winning it, he was producing in the high 30's. I think he was winning it because he was the best defensive player in the league, one of the few shot-blockers in the league, and a monster on the PK.

These days its a secondary prize for top/elite centermen.
 

Seph

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I understand that but i think too much emphasis is given to centermen. I think there are some wingers in the league who drive two-way play on their line. Max Pacioretty is one of them. He has proven this playing with Desharnais and Galchenyuk - neither of whom are stalwarts defensively.

There are, sure, but considering that wingers typically have less demanding defensive responsibilities, not to mention not taking faceoffs, they are simply a lot less likely to win it. It absolutely is slanted towards centers, but it should be, because the effect a center can have defensively is going to be higher than a winger's unless the winger is just that much better defesnively than the center.

But Lehtinen's multiple wins show that a winger certainly can win it, it's just very very difficult to do. The fact that the LW lock is pretty much a dead system, or at least, no one employs it exclusively anymore, makes it all the harder for this to happen again. It just takes another player like Lehtinen who is defensively dominant from the wing position. I don't really think that player exists right now, though as other have said, a case can be made for Hossa.
 
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hototogisu

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I agree. Back when Carbonneau was winning it, he was producing in the high 30's. I think he was winning it because he was the best defensive player in the league, one of the few shot-blockers in the league, and a monster on the PK.

These days its a secondary prize for top/elite centermen.

I think that's more because the line between "offensive talent" and "two-way player" has become increasingly blurred over the years. Nowadays your offensive talents are also expected to be strong two-way players. The two aren't as mutually exclusive as they were in the past.

(The reverse is also true, where two-way players are expected to give you decent production too).

It's like how you can be a fantastic defensive defenseman but you won't win the Norris if you only put up 10 points a season.

Re: the centerman/winger debate, it's simply because the center position inherently lends itself to more defensive responsibilities. It's not to say a winger can't win it but that the trophy is already skewed towards the center position.
 

Raccoon Jesus

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I think that's more because the line between "offensive talent" and "two-way player" has become increasingly blurred over the years. Nowadays your offensive talents are also expected to be strong two-way players. The two aren't as mutually exclusive as they were in the past.

(The reverse is also true, where two-way players are expected to give you decent production too).

It's like how you can be a fantastic defensive defenseman but you won't win the Norris if you only put up 10 points a season.

Re: the centerman/winger debate, it's simply because the center position inherently lends itself to more defensive responsibilities. It's not to say a winger can't win it but that the trophy is already skewed towards the center position.

Exactly. The 'defensive specialist' role is nearly obsolete as are 'shutdown' lines. They exist, though I can't think of many offhand, though the ones I can think of usually house a team's top players. Very few John Maddens/Ducks-era Pahlssons anymore.
 

Fire Everyone

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It's like how you can be a fantastic defensive defenseman but you won't win the Norris if you only put up 10 points a season.

The difference being that the Norris trophy is meant for the defenseman who is the best all-around at the position while the Selke trophy is meant to be awarded to the forward who is the most skilled at the defensive side of the game.
 

Seph

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In the minds of general hockey public (see this forum) and voters, it has. You have to put up at least 60 points nowadays to be even considered, and only then they start looking at your defensive play. When Lehtinen won his awards, it clearly wasn't about points back then.

Lehtinen scored at least 20 goals each year he won. Same goes for Peca in his winning years. Draper put up 24 goals in his year. Yzerman had 79 points when he won. Consdering how low scoring was in the dead puck era, these were considered good scoring numbers. John Madden was really the only player from that time period that won without putting up top 6 scoring numbers, and he came in just ahead of Sakic in the voting to win that year. Before that, you had Fedorov, Francis and Gilmour winning.

Scoring was very much a factor in Selke voting, even back then.
 

FanHabtic*

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Lehtinen scored at least 20 goals each year he won. Same goes for Peca in his winning years. Draper put up 24 goals in his year. Yzerman had 79 points when he won. Consdering how low scoring was in the dead puck era, these were considered good scoring numbers. John Madden was really the only player from that time period that won without putting up top 6 scoring numbers, and he came in just ahead of Sakic in the voting to win that year. Before that, you had Fedorov, Francis and Gilmour winning.

Scoring was very much a factor in Selke voting, even back then.

Not totally true. Carbonneau was winning it with low production in the wide-open-Oiler-hockey era.

But my point had more to do with a winger winning it than a centerman.
 

deckercky

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Just like a goalie or defenceman winning the Hart, I think a winger winning the Selke is possible, but that defenceman will REALLY have to stand out as a defensive dynamo while putting up solid points. And I think that's generally correct considering the defensive responsibilities of a center vs winger.
 

Seph

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Not totally true. Carbonneau was winning it with low production in the wide-open-Oiler-hockey era.

But my point had more to do with a winger winning it than a centerman.

While true, I was specifically referring to when Lehtinen was winning Selkes, which was after Carbonneau was winning them.
 

FanHabtic*

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While true, I was specifically referring to when Lehtinen was winning Selkes, which was after Carbonneau was winning them.

So when you say "even back then", you are referring only to the dead-puck-era as opposed to the no-system era.
 

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So when you say "even back then", you are referring only to the dead-puck-era as opposed to the no-system era.

I'm not sure why, but the reference to no-system era made me "guffaw".

Some of us aren't that old :P

but really Hossa should have a few of these, its unfortunate. Another guy that should be mentioned is Gaudreau :) Those takeaways and intercepts :)
 

Seph

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So when you say "even back then", you are referring only to the dead-puck-era as opposed to the no-system era.

I was referring specifically to the "then" that I was talking about in my post, since my original assertion was that the criteria hadn't really changed since Lehtinen was winning Selkes, and Lehtinen was winning Selkes in the late 90s and early 2000s. I didn't bring up changes that might have happened before Lehtinen was winning Selkes, and I didn't think it made sense to sidetrack the thread further with that discussion. But IMO, the Gilmour/Francis/Fedorov wins were when the award changed to include scoring as a factor. This was after Carbonneau stopped winning, and before Lehtinen started.
 

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