Franchise with best and worst goaltending historically

Discussion in 'The History of Hockey' started by SealsFan, Oct 16, 2011.

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  1. SealsFan

    SealsFan Registered User

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    Which team/franchise would you say has historically had good-to-great goaltending over the majority of its existence, and which franchise has been known for mostly mediocre/sub-par netminding over its history?

    Not sure if I've correctly described what I'm looking for, but it would be along the lines of, for example, Montreal has had good/great goaltending in 65% of their total seasons, while Pittsburgh has had good/great goaltending in 40% of their total seasons. These are just random numbers, I have no idea what the answers would be so I'm throwing it out to the experts...
     
  2. Rhiessan71

    Rhiessan71 Just a Fool

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    I think the Habs kinda run away with the Best by a far margin, both modern and pre-expansion.

    Worst....tough one. Can't really say any of the O6 teams had weak goalie's. tough to have that when there are only 6 starters.
    Since expansion though, I would have to go with either Detroit or Philly. Detroit hasn't had strong goaltending consistently. They have gotten some decent years out of older near the end goalie's for a year or two but nothing for long and has been average at best the rest of the time.
    Philly had Parent and Hextall for a few years and the unfortunate circumstances with Linberg but the rest of the time and especially in the last 2 decades, goaltending has been their downfall.
     
  3. Killion

    Killion Registered User

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    Well, good Goaltending is very much a team effort. If your teams lousy defensively, or if your a "run & gun" team outscoring the opposition like 7-6 or 9-5 or whatever as in the halcyon 70's & 80's, the GAA's will certainly reflect that.

    The Rangers of the 50's & really right on through until Giacomins blossoming was a Goalie Grave Yard for the likes of Jacques Plante & Gump Worsley, two Hall of Famer's who both before & after playing for the Rangers were quite superb.

    With the exceptions of Richard Brodeur & Kirk McLean in Vancouver, in the "Big Games" when it counts, certainly the Canucks have been badly let down by both Cloutier & Luongo, perhaps 2 of the most glaring examples of great teams, lousy goaltending when it matters most.

    As you know, Charlie Hodge played the bulk of the Seals first seasons games in 67-68, with a very respectable 2.86 GAA. Marv Edwards, Al Simmons, Smith & the rest who followed all pretty good goalies who could raise their game to higher heights, Money Players whose Junior, Minor League & previous NHL resumes' will attest. Seemingly ordinary & workmanlike capable of extraordinary performances. Mentally tough & focused, though none with the exception of Hodge every really getting the opportunity to showcase themselves that way.
     
    Last edited: Oct 16, 2011
  4. Killion

    Killion Registered User

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    Ya, Philly's another one. Some decent teams, disappointments between the pipes. Detroits revolving door in the crease through the 70's. Your Colorado Rockies Rhiessan; remember?. Fortunately you wised up about Hardy Astrom & went back to Dryden, the Thieving Giraffe. Put the Swedish Sieve back in the cupboard, reserved now for noodles n' such huh?...
     
  5. Rhiessan71

    Rhiessan71 Just a Fool

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    My who, what?
    I thought about the Rockies and Mr. Astrom but after they moved to NJ, they have been pretty good in that department with Brodeur and Burke heading the list.
     
  6. Killion

    Killion Registered User

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    :laugh: Your Washington Capitals?.... From 74 onward just brutal up front, on the blue-line & in the crease. Michel Belheumer not winning a single start in 35 games with a stratospheric GAA, Ron Low in tow with nose-bleed averages pretty much throughout his career. The poor Cap's couldnt seem to beg, borrow or steal decent goaltending for quite some time, surprising considering some of the names they had playing for them. Again though, its tough to be hard on the goalies in cases like that as clearly Milt Schmidt had passed his "best before" date in assembling the early teams & it wasnt until he was replaced that the franchise started a long march to respectability thereafter.
     
  7. Hammer Time

    Hammer Time Registered User

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    Vancouver has a reputation for being a "goalie graveyard", and I'd have to agree. In the 41-year history of the team, the only great Canuck goalies are Kirk McLean and Roberto Luongo. Richard Brodeur was great for one season when he reached the SCFs, and then faded back into mediocrity right after. Captain Kirk had a number of successful seasons and made it to the SCFs, but McLean's play dropped significantly after about 1995. Since then, the Canucks have went through Snow, Irbe, Essensa, Cloutier, and Auld before finally finding stable goaltending in Luongo. However Luongo has struggled in the 2009-2011 playoffs, and a significant number of Canucks fans have already lost confidence in him.

    Philadelphia at least witnessed one of the greatest goaltending performances of all time (Bernie Parent 1973-1975), also had Lindbergh's one great season before his tragic death, then Hextall's Smythe-winning year, and IMO that alone is enough to say that the Flyers don't have the worst goaltending in history.

    Agree with Detroit though ... if it weren't for the defence (particularly Lidstrom), I'm not sure they would have had the 4 Cups.
     
    Last edited: Oct 16, 2011
  8. Rhiessan71

    Rhiessan71 Just a Fool

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    Not my Caps either.
    But yeah, I thought about them too but really, they haven't been too bad in goal for the most part. Kolzig, Peters, Beaupre and even Palmateer have left the overall more on the better side than the worse side.
     
  9. Killion

    Killion Registered User

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    K. How about MY team, the Leafs of the late 70's to mid-80's?. Ten goalies in 8 seasons with nary a one of them registering a GAA below about 4.60. The inimitable Jiri Crha. Bunny Laroque. Jim Rutherford. Rick St. Croix. Allan Bester. Tim Bernhardt... its just too horrible to remember quite frankly. Heck, even the decent Ken Wregget was a loser in Toronto.

    Perhaps the "worst ever" was a 19yr old named Frank Brophy who played for the Quebec Bulldogs in 1919-20, going 4-20 with a 7.11 GAA. This despite the fact he was playing behind Joe Malone with a league leading 39 goals amongst other good players... Needless to say, Frank was not invited back the following season.
     
    Last edited: Oct 16, 2011
  10. tjcurrie

    tjcurrie Registered User

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    If you look at the list of all-time greats, I would say Montreal and Chicago have probably fared the best. 1950s and on I'm speaking.

    MONTREAL
    Jaques Plante
    Ken Dryden
    Patrick Roy

    CHICAGO
    Glenn Hall
    Tony Esposito
    Ed Belfour

    Some of the worst would probably be the teams you would expect like the Jets/Coyotes, Whalers/Hurricanes, the Islanders havent been that great besides Billy Smith and the Nordiques/Avs would probably be near the bottom save Patrick Roy I would say.
     
  11. Canadiens1958

    Canadiens1958 Registered User

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    Chicago and Detroit.

    Chicago had a nice run - Charlie Gardiner, Mike Karakas(very weak team),Harry Lumley, Al Rollins, Glenn Hall, Tony Esposito then Ed Belfour.

    Detroit had a unique run at the start of the Original six era, introducing three future HHOFers in a row to the NHL - Harry Lumley, Terry Sawchuk, Glenn Hall. Cannot recall any other team with a consecutive string of three future HHOFers introduced to the NHL.
     
    Last edited: Oct 16, 2011
  12. Central Scrutinizer

    Central Scrutinizer Lord of Song

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    I hate the Habs .....Habs win this one.
     
  13. TheStranger

    TheStranger Registered User

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    Quebec/Colorado outside of Roy...
     
  14. Kimi

    Kimi Registered User

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    The Ducks have a really short history for starting keepers, but I think they've been very well off. Start with Guy Hebert, taken during the expansion as our starter for a number of seasons. Then JS Giguere takes over as the number 1, and after that Hiller. Bryzgalov is in there too, but he was never really the starter here, but was definity at a level to be starter while he was back up.

    Only had 3 keepers (Hebert, Giguere, Hiller), but I'd say on average they've been really good.
     
  15. SealsFan

    SealsFan Registered User

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    Yeah, I recall that Leafs era, was waiting for someone to mention it.
     
  16. Hoser

    Hoser Registered User

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    I think Philly has been blessed with pretty spectacular goaltending overall.

    1967-71 they had Parent and Doug Favell, one of the best tandems in the league at the time behind Plante and Hall in St. Louis.

    In '70-'71 they got rid of Parent and Favell became the starter until '73. Parent learned a lot from Jacques Plante in Toronto while Favell stagnated. '71-'72 in particular was a pretty bad year for the Flyers, missing the playoffs.

    In 1973 they brought Parent back from the WHA, having acquired his NHL rights back from the Maple Leafs for Favell.

    From '73 to '79 they had some of the best goaltending in the league.

    In '78-'79 Wayne Stephenson had to take over from Parent and was a respectable 20-10-5 with two shutouts.

    In '79-'80 they had a tandem of Pete Peeters and Phil Myre. Peeters outperformed Myre and became the starter in 1980; they dealt Myre away. Rick St. Croix became the backup but started most of the games in the '81 playoffs after Peeters went 2-1 with a 4.00 GAA against the Nordiques. St. Croix pushed the Flames to seven games in the semifinals but the Flyers lost the seventh game to Calgary 4-1.

    Peeters couldn't stand being part of a revolving door in Philly and was dealt to Boston for Brad McCrimmon. Peeters went on to excel with the Bruins, winning the Vezina in his first season there. A lot of the blame for sub-par goaltending in those years can probably be put on the shoulders of Pat Quinn, who seemingly loved to rattle his goalies all the time. Keep in mind Peeters was still a damn good goalie: he played in the All-Star Game in '80 and '81.

    Even after having botched the relationship with Peeters the Flyers still had great goaltending. A young swede named Pelle Lindbergh took over in Peeters' place and made it to the All-Star Game in '83, playing in tandem with Bob Froese. By '84-'85 Lindbergh asserted himself as the starter and won the Vezina Trophy.

    He died in '85 and Bob Froese took over, winning a Jennings Trophy with backup Darren Jensen.

    Froese was replaced in '86 with rookie Ron Hextall, who won a Vezina and a Smythe Trophy in a losing cause.

    Hextall provided them with stable goaltending until 1992, when he was traded to the Nordiques as part of the Lindros deal. Admittedly Hextall could have been better, but the Flyers weren't exactly an elite team. He was quite injury-prone those years, and certainly not the sole reason they didn't make the playoffs in '90, '91 and '92. Bitter contract negotiations with Hextall in '89 couldn't have helped either.

    Tommy Soderstrom and Dominic Roussel sure as hell didn't do any better over the following couple seasons.

    When Hextall was reacquired in 1994 he was back in form and had some of the best seasons of his career.

    In '98 they brought in John Vanbiesbrouck, who was definitely near the end of his career but was still quite good.

    In 2000 Vanbiesbrouck was replaced by Roman Cechmanek, who finished second in Vezina voting and played in the All-Star Game. Admittedly he didn't play well in the 2001 playoffs but he was excellent in the regular seasons from 2000 to 2003 and definitely didn't deserve the blame he got for losing in the playoffs in 2002 and 2003.

    Since then the Flyers nets have been tended by a revolving door including Robert Esche, Sean Burke, Jeff Hackett, Brian Boucher, Antero Niittymaki, Martin Biron, Mike Leighton, Brian Boucher again and Sergei Bobrovsky.



    If anything I think the Flyers goaltending can be best described as mismanaged. Horribly mismanaged. From trading away Parent in '71 to alienating Peeters in the early '80s and trading away Hextall in '92 they've botched the relationship with every goalie they've had. Every goalie since Parent has (mostly unfairly) borne the brunt of the criticism for not having put them over the top.
     
  17. Jyrki

    Jyrki no longer trusts Linden CREW

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    How can you possibly be from Vancouver and mention Cloutier and Luongo in the same breath? I don't want to believe there are goldfishes in this fanbase.
     
  18. Killion

    Killion Registered User

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    Ballard mustve' liked what he'd seen with the Seals. Between 67 & 76 you guys had something like 11 or 12 goalies in 9 years, including; Hodge, Carter, Champoux, Edwards, Kurt, Meloche, Simmons, Smith, Sheddon, Worthy... Hardrock defenceman Leonard Elroy Frig keepin their sightlines clear. :naughty:

    Um, hate ta tell ya, "we are not all Canucks" out here on the Westcoast. In my case its bad. Real bad Vinny... :baghead:
     
  19. Jyrki

    Jyrki no longer trusts Linden CREW

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    Fair enough, but I would at least expect a local hockey fan to know how the difference between one of the many good goalies the franchise has had and one of the very best.
     
  20. Killion

    Killion Registered User

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    The ethernet is full of bloggers claiming Brodeur & Hasek are "frauds", so you can well imagine if you havent already heard it or read it elsewhere what people think of Danny & Louie and their rankings in the pantheon of goaltenders. Despite his whiffles, I liked Cloutier, and if I had to rate him Id give him a B+ to an A-. 7.5 - 8 out of 10. As for Luongo, an A with the potential to consistently be an A+, 8.5 to 9 out of 10, provided he steps up to the plate & performs like a Money Player from here on out. You know it was said about his performance with Team (by members of the team itself) Canada in 2010 that they won "despite" his performance, and lets face it, 2009-11's playoff performances have raised some rather ugly questions that he'd best be laying to waste come next spring, unless he's confused, thinking the Presidents Trophy's a higher achievement, better than winning the Stanley Cup.
     
  21. tony d

    tony d Registered User Sponsor

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    Montreal has the best (Roy, Plante and Dryden are all Top 8 Goalies IMO). Don't know about the worst though.
     
  22. Psycho Papa Joe

    Psycho Papa Joe Porkchop Hoser

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    The Habs have had a HOFer in net for the majority of their NHL existance:

    Vezina
    Hainsworth
    Durnan
    Plante
    Worsley
    Dryden
    Roy

    They've also had a number of other goalies with great single seasons as well.
     
  23. TheDevilMadeMe

    TheDevilMadeMe Registered User

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    Philly also had Pelle Lindbergh and Ron Hextall, both of whom won the Vezina. Washington had Olaf Kolzig, who was one of the better goalies in the league for 5 years or so and won a Vezina.

    Montreal is the easy choice for best goaltending. Vancouver would have been a good choice for worst before they got Luongo, but now there has to be someone worse.
     
  24. kingsfan

    kingsfan Yes my liege!

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    Kind shocked no one mentioned the Kings for worst goaltending ever. When the best goalie you've ever had is arguably Kelly Hrudey, not sure how they aren't in the running.

    Heck, even when we had a great goalie in Billy Smith, we let him go in an expansion draft. Even Grant Fuhr couldn't do anything here, and he went on to have a brief revival in St. Louis after we let him walk away. Even decent goalies like Manny Legace and Christobel Huet we ran out of town before they amounted to anything.

    Outside of a few good years from Hrudey, and an underrated career from Roggie Vachon, the Kings have had nothing to speak of in goaltending. Jonathan Quick is already 3rd all-time in Kings wins and Jamie Storr is 5th, who had just 85. Outside of the past two seasons, our goaltending has been largely terrible.
     
  25. Psycho Papa Joe

    Psycho Papa Joe Porkchop Hoser

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    Come on, nothing against Hrudey, but the best goalie in Kings history is Rogie Vachon without question. He's considered one of the best goalies not in the HOF and IMO is better than at least a couple of guys in there.
     

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