Franchise level players

[Mlotek]

selective reasoning....you're funny Bert

98 99 we lost to the Sabres in 4 straight and Hossa had two points

Keep in mind this was Hossa's rookie season.

Also he was tied for 4th in team scoring during those playoffs while playing 16 minutes a game. Compare that to Yashin, the team's best player, who recorded 0 points in 4 playoff games while averaging 26+ minutes a night.

Also that Senators team was pretty trash.

99 00 we lost to the Leafs in 6 games and Hossa had zero points

Another trash Senators team with 0 business in playoffs.

Also their regular season scorer had 0 points during playoffs as again.

Man, the North-East division must have been a massive joke during late 90s and early 00s given how well Ottawa was doing the regular seasons.


Ottawa generally never had a great team, they had 2-3 guys who would carry the team as far as they could. Unfortunately when you only got 2-3 guys its pretty easy to shut them down. Cough cough, Colorado these past playoffs.

 

[JD1]

Doesnt change the fact that he was the teams best player through that period and you are blaming him for the teams short comings. Another terrible take. I counted just fine he lead the team in scoring over that period. What was that weak attempt at calling me out anyways? I cant count? You made up a fake context. Thats the best you've got? He went on to be an incredible playoff performer, all the signs were there. They gave up on him way too early.

It appears by that breakdown you have an unhealthy ubsession with the leafs. Are you trying to argue they were a better team than the 03 devils?.... You once again fall short on your argument, taking on a hall of fame player. Keep choosing your battles wisely baha.

Ya he led the team in playoff scoring 3 times.

One year he had 2 points in 4 games to tie for the playoff lead. Another year he had 4 points in 7 to lead the team in scoring. Both first round losses to the leafs. Saying he "led" the team is true and sounds impressive, unfortunately it isn't, not when we are talking 6 points in 11 games combined and two 1st round losses to our arch rival.

Hossa went on to have a wonderful playoff career as the 4th or 5th best player on his team. Here in Ottawa where we needed him to be more, he wasnt up for it.

He became a guy chasing. Signed in Pittsburgh. Detroit won. Signed in Detroit and Pittsburgh won. Eventually signs in Chicago where he was at best their 4th best player.

Your question asking if I was arguing about the 03 Devils. You are challenged to interpret the written word aren't you Bert? I made no mention of that whatsoever. None. But you do this kind of stuff all the time. You make stuff up. You say....Are you arguing that "insert stupid statement here" my take Bert is that you do this to set people up for an insult or to make them feel stupid. There are lots of different opinions on the board Bert and lots of smart people. You certainly don't make me feel stupid Bert...rather I think your constant antics come off with the opposite effect of what you're going for...and I think there are quite a few folks here that see it.

 

[JD1]

Keep in mind this was Hossa's rookie season.

Also he was tied for 4th in team scoring during those playoffs while playing 16 minutes a game. Compare that to Yashin, the team's best player, who recorded 0 points in 4 playoff games while averaging 26+ minutes a night.

Also that Senators team was pretty trash.



Another trash Senators team with 0 business in playoffs.

Also their regular season scorer had 0 points during playoffs as again.

Man, the North-East division must have been a massive joke during late 90s and early 00s given how well Ottawa was doing the regular seasons.


Ottawa generally never had a great team, they had 2-3 guys who would carry the team as far as they could. Unfortunately when you only got 2-3 guys its pretty easy to shut them down. Cough cough, Colorado these past playoffs.

The 99 00 team had 95 points. 2nd in their division to Toronto's 100

 

[bert]

Ya he led the team in playoff scoring 3 times.

One year he had 2 points in 4 games to tie for the playoff lead. Another year he had 4 points in 7 to lead the team in scoring. Both first round losses to the leafs. Saying he "led" the team is true and sounds impressive, unfortunately it isn't, not when we are talking 6 points in 11 games combined and two 1st round losses to our arch rival.

Hossa went on to have a wonderful playoff career as the 4th or 5th best player on his team. Here in Ottawa where we needed him to be more, he wasnt up for it.

He became a guy chasing. Signed in Pittsburgh. Detroit won. Signed in Detroit and Pittsburgh won. Eventually signs in Chicago where he was at best their 4th best player.

Your question asking if I was arguing about the 03 Devils. You are challenged to interpret the written word aren't you Bert? I made no mention of that whatsoever. None. But you do this kind of stuff all the time. You make stuff up. You say....Are you arguing that "insert stupid statement here" my take Bert is that you do this to set people up for an insult or to make them feel stupid. There are lots of different opinions on the board Bert and lots of smart people. You certainly don't make me feel stupid Bert...rather I think your constant antics come off with the opposite effect of what you're going for...and I think there are quite a few folks here that see it.

The bolded portion is simply false. He was TRADED to the penguins and lead them in goals and had one less point than Crosby when they went to the final. You cant see this from any other position than his career ended at 25 years old and you never watched him again or didnt pay attention I am not sure. You also refuse to acknowledge his two way play which was the best on any of those teams he played on. He is a hall of fame player and your take on him is innacurate if you dont believe me go the main board, if not then there is no point in the argument any longer.

You downplayed the run in 03 to prove your point, then focused on the leafs how else should someone interpret that argument? You made the leafs the priority over going to the ECF. Whats funny is he was still was the highest scoring player on Sens against the leafs. He scored against much better teams thus proving your point wrong that he didnt show up. He then went on to be one of the best playoff players in the history of the NHL.

 

[bert]

Keep in mind this was Hossa's rookie season.

Also he was tied for 4th in team scoring during those playoffs while playing 16 minutes a game. Compare that to Yashin, the team's best player, who recorded 0 points in 4 playoff games while averaging 26+ minutes a night.

Also that Senators team was pretty trash.



Another trash Senators team with 0 business in playoffs.

Also their regular season scorer had 0 points during playoffs as again.

Man, the North-East division must have been a massive joke during late 90s and early 00s given how well Ottawa was doing the regular seasons.


Ottawa generally never had a great team, they had 2-3 guys who would carry the team as far as they could. Unfortunately when you only got 2-3 guys its pretty easy to shut them down. Cough cough, Colorado these past playoffs.

They were literally the polar opposite of Colorado this year. They had three elite scorers spread over three lines with tons of depth scoring.

 

[SAK11]

The bolded portion is simply false. He was TRADED to the penguins and lead them in goals and had one less point than Crosby when they went to the final. You cant see this from any other position than his career ended at 25 years old and you never watched him again or didnt pay attention I am not sure. You also refuse to acknowledge his two way play which was the best on any of those teams he played on. He is a hall of fame player and your take on him is innacurate if you dont believe me go the main board, if not then there is no point in the argument any longer.

You downplayed the run in 03 to prove your point, then focused on the leafs how else should someone interpret that argument? You made the leafs the priority over going to the ECF. Whats funny is he was still was the highest scoring player on Sens against the leafs. He scored against much better teams thus proving your point wrong that he didnt show up. He then went on to be one of the best playoff players in the history of the NHL.

This is an exaggeration. Other than his year in Pittsburgh, he was never much of a playoff beast. He had some nice runs with Chicago, but was never their best player and his goal scoring numbers in the playoffs lacked more often than not (21 goals in 107 playoff games for Chicago). In their 3 Stanley Cup runs, Hossa finished 7th, 4th and 4th in playoff scoring for Chicago. He was 6th when he went to the finals with Detroit, and 5th when Chicago lost in the Conference Finals. Only once out of 17 years did he score at better than a point per game in the playoffs.

 

[JD1]

The bolded portion is simply false. He was TRADED to the penguins and lead them in goals and had one less point than Crosby when they went to the final. You cant see this from any other position than his career ended at 25 years old and you never watched him again or didnt pay attention I am not sure. You also refuse to acknowledge his two way play which was the best on any of those teams he played on. He is a hall of fame player and your take on him is innacurate if you dont believe me go the main board, if not then there is no point in the argument any longer.

You downplayed the run in 03 to prove your point, then focused on the leafs how else should someone interpret that argument? You made the leafs the priority over going to the ECF. Whats funny is he was still was the highest scoring player on Sens against the leafs. He scored against much better teams thus proving your point wrong that he didnt show up. He then went on to be one of the best playoff players in the history of the NHL.

My lord you really struggle to stay on track with what we are discussing Bert

We weren't discussing his two way play so what I acknowledge or don't isn't part of the discussion we were having. I've given you no comment at all on my thoughts about his two way play. Or on his place on the Hall.

My take that he was the 4th or 5th best player on his team? I'm going with Toews, Kane and Keith on the black hawks. Maybe you can go to the main boards and ask whether he was more valuable/important than those 3 in their cup wins?

My take was he didn't get it done here in Ottawa. He didn't. It's kind of hard to dispute that. You can list reasons why, but you can't dispute it.

You seem to want to change the discussion all the time Bert. I'm not going to insult you for doing it....just pointing it out

Have a nice day Bert.

 

[MatchesMalone]

While I agree the generational tag gets thrown around far too sloppily now days, I'm actually not in the camp that there can be only one per generation. That would be too easy.

Generational players since the 80s: Gretzky, Lemieux, maybe Roy. Jagr, Lidstrom, Hasek, maybe Brodeur. Crosby, Ovechkin. McDavid, likely Kucherov, maybe another will emerge for this generation; Dahlin?

Franchise player, every team is allowed up to a couple per generation. Pittsburgh has Crosby, Malkin, Letang. Chicago has Kane, Toews, Keith, LA has Kopitar, Doughty, Quick. And that's why they won multiple Cups. Most teams have maybe one at a time.

Someone said Ottawa has had three in franchise history, Chara, Alfredsson, Karlsson. Alfie and Karlsson certainly, and while I'd agree Chara was a franchise player, he probably didn't quite establish himself as such until with the Bruins.

Also Hossa had all the talents to be a franchise player, but he was never really with a single team long enough to establish himself as one.

Chabot looks like a pretty sure bet to be a franchise player. Tkachuk is probably our next best bet to be one, but it's gotta be significantly less than a 50% chance.

 

[MatchesMalone]

It seems that the people arguing against Hossa have completely forgotten what an immense two-way talent he was. One of the best defensive forwards of recent memory. Only he never won Selkes because post-Jere Lehtinen, for some reason voters are obsessed with it only going to centers.

 

[stempniaksen]

It seems that the people arguing against Hossa have completely forgotten what an immense two-way talent he was. One of the best defensive forwards of recent memory. Only he never won Selkes because post-Jere Lehtinen, for some reason voters are obsessed with it only going to centers.

People probably also aren't giving him enough credit because he was always the 3rd/4th option on the Penguins/Red Wings/Blackhawks, but that was through no fault of his own. It's easy to forget (or to have never paid attention) to his 2.5 years in Atlanta, but that was genuinely some of the best 2-way hockey I've ever seen anyone play. He racked up 248 points in 222 games playing with absolute garbage for the most part (he was split from Kovalchuk at even strength). The guy could absolutely be a #1 option somewhere, he just ended up prioritizing chasing cups over racking up points.

 

[Stylizer1]

People probably also aren't giving him enough credit because he was always the 3rd/4th option on the Penguins/Red Wings/Blackhawks, but that was through no fault of his own. It's easy to forget (or to have never paid attention) to his 2.5 years in Atlanta, but that was genuinely some of the best 2-way hockey I've ever seen anyone play. He racked up 248 points in 222 games playing with absolute garbage for the most part (he was split from Kovalchuk at even strength). The guy could absolutely be a #1 option somewhere, he just ended up prioritizing chasing cups over racking up points.

You watched Thrashers hockey for 2.5 years?

 

[stempniaksen]

You watched Thrashers hockey for 2.5 years?

Kept a close eye on Hossa and Kovalchuk since they were two of my favourites at the time.

I mean I'm a Sens fan, so clearly I'm a hockey masochist.

 

[armani]

Karlsson is a once in a generation offensive defenceman.

Alfredsson was the franchise for the Sens for the longest time.

Both are Franchise players (i.e. you build your roster around them), with Karlsson having the obvious edge in terms of overall quality.

Boro maybe the face of the franchise today, but he is no franchise player. Tkachuk and Chabot are two of the guys to build around, and we will see who emerges as the face of the Sens future. It could be neither if Sens get lucky drafting first overall next draft.

 

[Stylizer1]

Karlsson is a once in a generation offensive defenceman.

Alfredsson was the franchise for the Sens for the longest time.

Both are Franchise players (i.e. you build your roster around them), with Karlsson having the obvious edge in terms of overall quality.

Boro maybe the face of the franchise today, but he is no franchise player. Tkachuk and Chabot are two of the guys to build around, and we will see who emerges as the face of the Sens future. It could be neither if Sens get lucky drafting first overall next draft.

I wouldn't have put Alfie in that light for the first half of his career. He was the heart and soul of the team but wasn't on that level of franchise player for me. Spezza was more of a franchise player than Alfie.

 

[trentmccleary]

I have a lot of data on my PC and it looks like you guys are talking about how our former star forwards did in the playoffs...

Here's how they did per playoff series playing for Ottawa (PPG):

Plyr	>1.20	1.00-1.19	.67-.86	.40-.60	<0.40	Total	>1.00	<0.60
AY	0	0	2	1	2	5	0%	60%
JS	3	1	4	1	3	12	33%	33%
MH	1	1	2	4	1	9	22%	56%
DH	3	0	1	1	2	7	43%	43%
AYJSMHDH	7	2	9	7	8	33	27%	45%
DA	6	5	6	3	3	23	48%	26%

[TBODY] [/TBODY]

Here's how they did in every playoff series for their entire careers (PPG):

Plyr	>1.20	1.00-1.19	.67-.86	.40-.60	<0.40	Total	>1.00	<0.60
DA11	6	5	6	3	4	24	46%	29%
DH15	4	1	3	2	4	15	33%	40%
JS19	4	1	4	3	4	16	31%	44%
MH18	5	6	10	10	6	37	30%	43%
AY19	0	1	3	1	4	9	11%	56%

[TBODY] [/TBODY]

Here's the full list of how they produced in every single series between 1997-2013:
Yashin & Spezza are on the same line because they were traded for eachother. Ditto for Hossa & Heatley.

DA	GP	G	Pts	PPG	Plyr	GP	G	Pts	PPG	Plyr	GP	G	Pts	PPG
1997.1	7	5	7	1.00	AY	7	1	6	0.86	_	_	_	_	_
1998.1	6	3	4	0.67	AY	6	3	5	0.83	_	_	_	_	_
1998.2	5	4	5	1.00	AY	5	2	3	0.60	_	_	_	_	_
1999.1	4	1	3	0.75	AY	4	0	0	0.00	MH	4	0	2	0.50
2000.1	6	1	4	0.67	_	_	_	_	_	MH	6	0	0	0.00
2001.1	4	1	1	0.25	AY	4	0	1	0.25	MH	4	1	2	0.50
2002.1	5	3	6	1.20	_	_	_	_	_	MH	5	2	5	1.00
2002.2	7	4	7	1.00	_	_	_	_	_	MH	7	2	5	0.71
2003.1	5	0	3	0.60	_	_	_	_	_	MH	5	3	4	0.80
2003.2	6	4	4	0.67	_	_	_	_	_	MH	6	2	8	1.33
2003.3	7	0	1	0.14	JS	3	1	2	0.67	MH	7	0	4	0.57
2004.1	7	1	3	0.43	JS	3	0	0	0.00	MH	7	3	4	0.57
2006.1	5	1	4	0.80	JS	5	2	10	2.00	DH	5	2	10	2.00
2006.2	5	1	6	1.20	JS	5	3	4	0.80	DH	5	1	2	0.40
2007.1	5	3	6	1.20	JS	5	2	4	0.80	DH	5	2	4	0.80
2007.2	5	3	5	1.00	JS	5	3	8	1.60	DH	5	3	10	2.00
2007.3	5	4	6	1.20	JS	5	2	8	1.60	DH	5	1	7	1.40
2007.4	5	4	5	1.00	JS	5	0	2	0.40	DH	5	0	1	0.20
2008.1	2	0	0	0.00	JS	4	0	1	0.25	DH	4	0	1	0.25
2010.1	6	2	8	1.33	JS	6	1	7	1.17	_	_	_	_	_
2012.1	4	2	2	0.50	JS	7	3	5	0.71	_	_	_	_	_
2013.1	5	2	6	1.20	X	_	_	_	_	_	_	_	_	_
2013.2	5	2	4	0.80	JS	3	0	1	0.33	_	_	_	_	_

[TBODY] [/TBODY]

 

[Stylizer1]

I have a lot of data on my PC and it looks like you guys are talking about how our former star forwards did in the playoffs...

Here's how they did per playoff series playing for Ottawa (PPG):

Plyr	>1.20	1.00-1.19	.67-.86	.40-.60	<0.40	Total	>1.00	<0.60
AY	0	0	2	1	2	5	0%	60%
JS	3	1	4	1	3	12	33%	33%
MH	1	1	2	4	1	9	22%	56%
DH	3	0	1	1	2	7	43%	43%
AYJSMHDH	7	2	9	7	8	33	27%	45%
DA	6	5	6	3	3	23	48%	26%

[TBODY] [/TBODY]

Here's how they did in every playoff series for their entire careers (PPG):

Plyr	>1.20	1.00-1.19	.67-.86	.40-.60	<0.40	Total	>1.00	<0.60
DA11	6	5	6	3	4	24	46%	29%
DH15	4	1	3	2	4	15	33%	40%
JS19	4	1	4	3	4	16	31%	44%
MH18	5	6	10	10	6	37	30%	43%
AY19	0	1	3	1	4	9	11%	56%

[TBODY] [/TBODY]

Here's the full list of how they produced in every single series between 1997-2013:
Yashin & Spezza are on the same line because they were traded for eachother. Ditto for Hossa & Heatley.

DA	GP	G	Pts	PPG	Plyr	GP	G	Pts	PPG	Plyr	GP	G	Pts	PPG
1997.1	7	5	7	1.00	AY	7	1	6	0.86	_	_	_	_	_
1998.1	6	3	4	0.67	AY	6	3	5	0.83	_	_	_	_	_
1998.2	5	4	5	1.00	AY	5	2	3	0.60	_	_	_	_	_
1999.1	4	1	3	0.75	AY	4	0	0	0.00	MH	4	0	2	0.50
2000.1	6	1	4	0.67	_	_	_	_	_	MH	6	0	0	0.00
2001.1	4	1	1	0.25	AY	4	0	1	0.25	MH	4	1	2	0.50
2002.1	5	3	6	1.20	_	_	_	_	_	MH	5	2	5	1.00
2002.2	7	4	7	1.00	_	_	_	_	_	MH	7	2	5	0.71
2003.1	5	0	3	0.60	_	_	_	_	_	MH	5	3	4	0.80
2003.2	6	4	4	0.67	_	_	_	_	_	MH	6	2	8	1.33
2003.3	7	0	1	0.14	JS	3	1	2	0.67	MH	7	0	4	0.57
2004.1	7	1	3	0.43	JS	3	0	0	0.00	MH	7	3	4	0.57
2006.1	5	1	4	0.80	JS	5	2	10	2.00	DH	5	2	10	2.00
2006.2	5	1	6	1.20	JS	5	3	4	0.80	DH	5	1	2	0.40
2007.1	5	3	6	1.20	JS	5	2	4	0.80	DH	5	2	4	0.80
2007.2	5	3	5	1.00	JS	5	3	8	1.60	DH	5	3	10	2.00
2007.3	5	4	6	1.20	JS	5	2	8	1.60	DH	5	1	7	1.40
2007.4	5	4	5	1.00	JS	5	0	2	0.40	DH	5	0	1	0.20
2008.1	2	0	0	0.00	JS	4	0	1	0.25	DH	4	0	1	0.25
2010.1	6	2	8	1.33	JS	6	1	7	1.17	_	_	_	_	_
2012.1	4	2	2	0.50	JS	7	3	5	0.71	_	_	_	_	_
2013.1	5	2	6	1.20	X	_	_	_	_	_	_	_	_	_
2013.2	5	2	4	0.80	JS	3	0	1	0.33	_	_	_	_	_

[TBODY] [/TBODY]

Never go full xspirit.

 

[Chabot84]

Karlsson would have been held up as franchise player like Alfie if he wasn’t traded. Doesn’t feel the same now... even though he may be the most talented to ever wear the jersey.