Franchise in the most Trouble?

[Jaded-Fan]

I think he was talking about William "Boots" Del Biaggio, who tried to buy the Pens in Summer '05, but the deal fell through - he became a minority investor in the current ownership group instead.

No, there is a supermarket chain guy who has had a large stake in the Pens with Mario. His name escapes me as well.

 

[MLH]

Anyone is on crack if they think that the NHL will allow the Pens to move from a hockey town that gets them the 2nd best FOX local television ratings in the entire NHL, and has done so for the last 30 years, over under $3 m. per year. And Fox local television ratings = number 2 on the NHL like Pittsburgh does?

What does that even mean? Does that just not count any teams that aren't on Fox? Buffalo is the NHL's best TV market in the United States, but Sabres games are on MSG locally. Who exactly is Pittsburgh beating?

Larry Quinn, the Sabres' managing partner, said the board of governors was told at a meeting last month in Chicago that Buffalo's playoff viewership was driving OLN's ratings.
A Buffalo-Carolina playoff game carried on OLN last season had a 31.8 rating in Western New York, three times what it received in Raleigh and 31 times the national average. A Stanley Cup finals game between Carolina and Edmonton on OLN had a 2.6 rating in Buffalo, making it the highest-rated market outside of Carolina and only .4 behind Charlotte.

http://www.buffalonews.com/editorial/20061004/2033998.asp

Buffalo is regularly the highest rated market aside from the teams that are playing and Sabres games always get higher local ratings than any other cable show and draw ten times the ratings as MSG's other teams. If Buffalo ever gets a Stanley Cup Finals game on NBC it will easily be rated in the 40's.

Aren't all three of the "NY" teams on MSG? And the Flyers on Comcast? And the Canadian teams on their own affiliates? Who's on Fox?

 

[OnMyOwn]

What does that even mean? Does that just not count any teams that aren't on Fox? Buffalo is the NHL's best TV market in the United States, but Sabres games are on MSG locally. Who exactly is Pittsburgh beating?



http://www.buffalonews.com/editorial/20061004/2033998.asp

Buffalo is regularly the highest rated market aside from the teams that are playing and Sabres games always get higher local ratings than any other cable show and draw ten times the ratings as MSG's other teams. If Buffalo ever gets a Stanley Cup Finals game on NBC it will easily be rated in the 40's.

Aren't all three of the "NY" teams on MSG? And the Flyers on Comcast? And the Canadian teams on their own affiliates? Who's on Fox?

Pens, Ducks, Hurricane, Blue Jackets, Stars, Panthers, Kings, Wild, Predators, Coyotes, and Blues.....i may have missed some, but they are all on FOX

 

[kdb209]

What does that even mean? Does that just not count any teams that aren't on Fox? Buffalo is the NHL's best TV market in the United States, but Sabres games are on MSG locally. Who exactly is Pittsburgh beating?



http://www.buffalonews.com/editorial/20061004/2033998.asp

Buffalo is regularly the highest rated market aside from the teams that are playing and Sabres games always get higher local ratings than any other cable show and draw ten times the ratings as MSG's other teams. If Buffalo ever gets a Stanley Cup Finals game on NBC it will easily be rated in the 40's.

Aren't all three of the "NY" teams on MSG? And the Flyers on Comcast? And the Canadian teams on their own affiliates? Who's on Fox?

Fox Sports Arizona - Coyotes
Fox Sports Detroit - Red Wings
Fox Sports Midwest - Blues
Fox Sports North - Wild
Fox Sports Pittsburgh - Penguins
Fox Sports South - Hurricanes, Predators
Fox Sports Southwest - Stars
Fox Sports West / Prime Ticket- Kings, Ducks
Fox Sports Bay Area - Sharks
Fox Sports Florida - Panthers
Fox Sports New York - Islanders, Devils
Fox Sports Ohio - Blue Jackets

Other Fox Sports Net/Newscorp owned RSNs:

Sun Sports - Lightning
Turner South - Thrashers

Other related RSNs:

MSG - Rangers, Sabres (MSG/Cablevision owns Fox Sports New York)

Fox Sports Net stations carry 15 out of the 24 US based teams. If you include the other FSN/Newscorp owned networks that is 17 out of 24. If you include MSG, it is 19 out of 24.

The only Non FSN affiliated RSNs are Altitude (Denver), NESN (Boston), and the Comcast SportsNets (Philly, Chicago, and DC).

For completeness, the RSNs for all US teams:

Anaheim - Fox Sports West / Prime Ticket
Atlanta - Turner South (soon to become SportSouth)
Boston - NESN
Buffalo - MSG
Carolina - Fox Sports South
Chicago - Comcsat Sportsnet Chicago
Columbus - Fox Sports Ohio
Colorado - Altitude
Dallas - Fox Sports Southwest
Detroit - Fox Sports Detroit
Florida - Fox Sports Florida
Los Angeles - Fox Sports West / Prime Ticket
Minnesota - Fox Sports North
Nashville - Fox Sports South
New Jersey - Fox Sports New York & MSG
NY Islanders - Fox Sports New York
NY Rangers - MSG
Philadelphia - Comcast Sportsnet Philadelphia
Phoenix - Fox Sports Arizona
Pittsburgh - Fox Sports Pittsburgh
San Jose - Fox Sports Bay Area
St Louis - Fox Sports Mid West
Tampa Bay - Sun Sports
Washington - Comcast Sportsnet Mid Atlantic

 

[Pens75]

Buffalo is the NHL's best TV market in the United States

Actually...

If my memory serves correctly, Detroit is #1 and Pittsburgh is #2 in NHL TV ratings in USA.

 

[Metallian*]

The Pens will get a new arena (likely in Pittsburgh, almost 100% sure given the minimal required contribution from them to the arena in Pittsburgh in even the worst case scenerio, but somewhere anyways) no matter what and now have one of the richest owners in the NHL. The Pens are no longer a distressed franchise. Within a year their situation will be one of the more stable ones in hockey.

means nothing. fans arent going out to the games and the owner might have interest in making more money somewhere else.

that said, i pray the pens dont move. that'd be like minni moving or winnipeg. i love pittsburgh and would hate to see them move. im just being realistic - they are in serious trouble at the moment

 

[skullman80]

means nothing. fans arent going out to the games and the owner might have interest in making more money somewhere else.

that said, i pray the pens dont move. that'd be like minni moving or winnipeg. i love pittsburgh and would hate to see them move. im just being realistic - they are in serious trouble at the moment

Fans aren't going to the games? Since when? Other than the exception to the rule (03-04) the Pens have always had good attendance.

That being said this was never about attendance, and never will be. It makes no difference if the Pens draw 10,000 or 18,000. It's about the buildling and the lease.

Pittsburgh has been proven to be a good hockey market over the past 40 years.

 

[Metallian*]

So, what are you basing this on besides your own bias?
.

Common sense and attendance numbers.

How about you?

 

[Metallian*]

Fans aren't going to the games? Since when?

Since the home opener against the freakin' Flyers didnt even draw 17k (like 600 short of sell out but still, its the home opener!) and then the next against Detroit (a great team to draw fans) barely 15k


i'll be watching what saturdays game draws, since thats a good day to see a game and its againt the cup champs

 

[Pens75]

fans arent going out to the games... attendance numbers.

You might want to do your homework...

Pittsburgh has a good hockey attendance record dating back to 1902.

 

[Pens75]

Since the home opener against the freakin' Flyers didnt even draw 17k (like 600 short of sell out but still

That's it folks! Pack it up! Pens only pulling 17k people! Move em!

 

[pensfan101*]

Which Franchise is going to be the next one to be relocated? Which city will they go to? I'm hoping that not everyone picks the Islanders.

another thread to bring up the pens moving and all that ********.


you get a 0 for quality.

 

[skullman80]

Since the home opener against the freakin' Flyers didnt even draw 17k (like 600 short of sell out but still, its the home opener!) and then the next against Detroit (a great team to draw fans) barely 15k


i'll be watching what saturdays game draws, since thats a good day to see a game and its againt the cup champs

Actually 16,957 is a sellout. 17,108(I think) is a SRO sellout.

Anyhow like I said this was never ever about attendance. Ever. It never will be either. People like to harp on this for some reason. The Pens have had some of the better attendance in the league over the past 20 years.

It's about the arena, it always has and it always will be. If there is a new arena in place, Pittsbrugh is a viable hockey market, just like it always has been.

We might as well move Anaheim too, since they only drew 13,000 the other night for a game at home against the Blues, and they are coming off of a playoff year etc...

You can look at the attendance numbers all you want, they mean absolutley nothing in the grand scheme of things in regards to if the Pens stay here or not. If there is a new arena, they stay, if there isn't they don't. Show me a team that has been as horrible as the Pens have been for the past 5 years that would draw a sellout every single night in the US besides maybe Det/Philly. It's not gonna happen.

 

[MLH]

Fox Sports Arizona - Coyotes
Fox Sports Detroit - Red Wings
Fox Sports Midwest - Blues
Fox Sports North - Wild
Fox Sports Pittsburgh - Penguins
Fox Sports South - Hurricanes, Predators
Fox Sports Southwest - Stars
Fox Sports West / Prime Ticket- Kings, Ducks
Fox Sports Bay Area - Sharks
Fox Sports Florida - Panthers
Fox Sports New York - Islanders, Devils
Fox Sports Ohio - Blue Jackets

Other Fox Sports Net/Newscorp owned RSNs:

Sun Sports - Lightning
Turner South - Thrashers

Other related RSNs:

MSG - Rangers, Sabres (MSG/Cablevision owns Fox Sports New York)

While it is a lot of teams, many of the teams you would expect to get good ratings (Toronto, Montreal, Calgary, Vancouver, Ottawa, Edmonton, Buffalo, NY Rangers, Philly, and even Colorado) aren't on the list.

The only teams on Fox that I'd expect to get good ratings are Detroit, Pittsburgh, and Minnesota (perhaps St. Louis and Dallas as well). Being number two on Fox may very well be middle of the pack in the NHL.

Actually...

If my memory serves correctly, Detroit is #1 and Pittsburgh is #2 in NHL TV ratings in USA.

You may be citing the Fox numbers that have been mentioned. Seems Pittsburgh is #2 there. You might be thinking of figures you heard before Buffalo became a "Nielsen rated city" which was somewhat recently. Either way, Buffalo is the best television market in the US for the NHL.

Sabre playoff games were consistently in the upper 20's and into the 30's for the first two rounds and were in the 30's for the ECF despite being on a channel that was added a few days before the Carolina/Buffalo series started. The only two markets that beat Buffalo in the Cup Finals were Raleigh and Charlotte and they obviously had a vested interest. Keep in mind that many Buffalonians, including myself, watch the games on CBC which don't count towards ratings making it even more impressive. I'm not positive, but I've heard that MSG's ratings for regular season Sabre games are the highest of any local broadcasts in America. I know that MSG gets ten times the ratings for Sabre regular season games than Ranger regular season games (though the population difference makes it up).

Despite it being one of the smallest TV markets in America (probably the smallest) the Sabres have eight nationally televised games. It's not just because they're good and exciting.

 

[td_ice]

No, there is a supermarket chain guy who has had a large stake in the Pens with Mario. His name escapes me as well.

Ron Burkle

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ronald_Burkle

 

[Sotnos]

Common sense and attendance numbers.

How about you?

How do you figure? You obviously didn't look at Tampa's attendance numbers.

 

[jBuds]

What's the situation in Florida like? I can't understand how there's two teams in Florida. That's not a bash on the state, just a theory of placing one of the two in a more hockey friendly environment.

Anyone that disagrees, please feel free to lemme have it I'm more curious than knowledgable in this particular situation?

 

[Whalerfan11]

I always found it strange that there are 2 hockey teams in Florida and only 1 in New England. I think that needs to change. Bring back the Whalers!

 

[Sotnos]

Phil Esposito is a smooth talker and convinced the NHL Board of Governors that he had the expansion fees. Gil Stein was more interested in the "status" of the owners for the next expansion, so Disney and Wayne Huizenga (I think he owns/owned blockbuster) got awarded teams. He talks about it a bit in his book Power Plays.

Voila. That is why there are two teams in Florida.

 

[doc5hole]

To much emphasis on attendance. It is revenue that counts, i.e. the price of the ticket, luxury boxes, corporate sponsorship etc. Heck at $20.00 a ticket the Leafs could draw 60,000 a night to the Rogers Centre (Skydome). Attendance unless associated with a high ticket price means squat. Quebec and Winnipeg did not lose there franchises because of attendance.

You're right, they didn't, I'd add Hartford there ... But, if a team in a non-hockey-cultured market only gets decent attendance when it has an extraordinary season and there are 30 teams in the league, then what does it indicate about that franchise's long-term viability? IMO the cap will reveal the truth about hockey in the south (i.e. winning has proven to sell, hockey hasn't proven to sell).

It so happens my parents live 90 miles south of Tampa, and at the rec. center there is a beautiful roller hockey rink with NHL-quality nets. The whole thing is practically regulation size for ice hockey. Hard to believe, but the gulf coast is latching onto the Lightning. Carolina seemed to be headed in the same direction in 2002 with Hurricane flags on fenders of cars, but 02-03 revealed the interest being about 90 percent bandwagon and about 10 percent hockey. Their next plummet will be very interesting, and no doubt the Canes' marketing will be working closely with the league to ensure it never looks like it did in 02-03 (i.e. wall of empty seats during the national anthem) should the fans opt out.

As it has been since the new-arena/expansion-migration era began with Bettman in the early 90's, my concern is not only hockey fans losing their hockey to fans that don't care unless their team wins, but, even more importantly, the good of the game. Selling it in non-hockey-cultured markets is driven by gimmickery, and while this greedy group of owners insists it will never put the shootout in the playoffs, all we know right now is that they haven't yet been given the right amount of financial incentive (i.e. U.S. national network TV). Taking the money and robbing hockey fans of Stanley Cup overtime would be the sport's abomination of desolation. People think I'm way ahead of myself here, but with every Southern-market team that wins the Cup, the day gets closer. Everything else this league has done in the last 15 years has been dictated by the dollar. What, are they all of a sudden going to care about the fans they've been selling out since 1991?

 

[Sotnos]

It so happens my parents live 90 miles south of Tampa, and at the rec. center there is a beautiful roller hockey rink with NHL-quality nets. The whole thing is practically regulation size for ice hockey. Hard to believe, but the gulf coast is latching onto the Lightning.

Nice! Up where my parents live (north of Tampa), I think they still use tennis courts for roller hockey.

As it has been since the new-arena/expansion-migration era began with Bettman in the early 90's, my concern is not only hockey fans losing their hockey to fans that don't care unless their team wins, but, even more importantly, the good of the game.

Common misconception, the 90s expansions did NOT start under Bettman, franchises were already awarded when he came on board. I hope you consider the fans from the 90s expansion teams under your definition of "hockey fans", but I must say it doesn't sound like you do!

 

[OnMyOwn]

Common sense and attendance numbers.

How about you?

they had 94% average attendance for the second worst team in the league....look at other teams that are way at the bottom towards the end of the season and watch a game on tv....their stadium is only half full, while ours still looks like the beginning of the year where there are only a one or two bare patches in the entire building.

 

[timmy12]

."The Wild had the third highest NHL ratings average (1.73) among FSN regional sports networks, trailing only Detroit (4.1) and Pittsburgh (2.5) and had the fifth highest NHL ratings average among all regional sports networks, trailing Detroit, Pittsburgh, Philadelphia (2.6), and Boston (2.1)."http://www.wild.com/team/Press.asp?story_id=4784

 

[MLH]

."The Wild had the third highest NHL ratings average (1.73) among FSN regional sports networks, trailing only Detroit (4.1) and Pittsburgh (2.5) and had the fifth highest NHL ratings average among all regional sports networks, trailing Detroit, Pittsburgh, Philadelphia (2.6), and Boston (2.1)."http://www.wild.com/team/Press.asp?story_id=4784

Last season Sabre games on MSG averaged more than a 5.0 and it's expected to be closer to 7.0 this year. The opener on Versus had a 9.5 in Buffalo.

The 74 Sabres games not carried on the league's national channels will be carried on MSG, which averaged more than a 5.0 regular-season rating last season.

http://www.buffalonews.com/editorial/20061004/2033998.asp

Considering Buffalo has the highest ratings for its own games and is also the highest rated market for other national games (save the team(s) that are playing) it's pretty clear that it's the best NHL TV market in the United States.

 

[ColoradoHockeyFan]

Show me a team that has been as horrible as the Pens have been for the past 5 years that would draw a sellout every single night in the US besides maybe Det/Philly. It's not gonna happen.

Why even mention Detroit/Philly here as exceptions? Given five years of last-place, horrible hockey, there's no chance that they would have sellouts every night either.

There is no exception among US markets. In fact, the only exception in the entire league might be in Toronto.