Franchise Greatest Players

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Feb 27, 2002
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Ogopogo said:
Because of era, #of games scheduled games and other systemic differences, raw point totals cannot be compared. Players pre 1970 will always rank behind 1970-1995 players in raw numbers. That is just the difference in the eras. Looking beyond the numbers gives us a better idea of what they mean. Bathgate spent a lot more time near the top of the NHL scoring race than Gilbert, Leetch, Ratelle and Messier. Bathgate just played 70 game seasons during a more defensive era.

Spin it how you want but the numbers and the hardware don't back you up.
 

Ogopogo*

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SingnBluesOnBroadway said:
Spin it how you want but the numbers and the hardware don't back you up.

I am glad we can agree to disagree.
 

Buffalo Stylee

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I would agree with your idea that Hasek is the greatest Sabre in Buffalo's history but I would also give Perreault some recognition as well. It's a toss-up between those two players; Perreault is a legend here.
 

Luigi Lemieux

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Sep 26, 2003
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Ogopogo said:
I agree, Leetch was an excellent player - one of the greatest players ever. But, his Norris trophy index of 29 puts him a little behind Bathgate's scoring index of 41.5.

They are both phenomenal but, Bathgate dominated his era more than Leetch dominated his.
You should really put an IMO after these kinds of statements because they're not fact. Especially since you yourself picked out the weights for different accomplishments for your index scoring system.
 

Hobey Baker

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Gilbert Perreault would give Hasek a run for his money in the eyes of Sabres fans. He never won a Hart, but he's the gold standard in Sabreland if you ask me. You can't discount Hasek's greatness, but Perreault just had "it" and I think many will agree. The two are like #1 and #1a. It depends who you ask.
 

Hockey Outsider

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Ogopogo said:
Because of era, #of games scheduled games and other systemic differences, raw point totals cannot be compared. Players pre 1970 will always rank behind 1970-1995 players in raw numbers. That is just the difference in the eras. Looking beyond the numbers gives us a better idea of what they mean. Bathgate spent a lot more time near the top of the NHL scoring race than Gilbert, Leetch, Ratelle and Messier. Bathgate just played 70 game seasons during a more defensive era.

Accidentally erased my other post so I'll keep this short...

First of all, it's important to distinguish between "best" and "most famous/recognizable". Gil Perreault always has, and always will, be associated with the Sabres for getting the franchise going in its first decade. He is the face of the franchise, and for good reason. However, objectively, Hasek was the better player, relative to his peers and to his era. Same with Montreal. Maurice Richard is the epitome of hockey in Montreal, but Beliveau (and probably Harvey and Morenz) were better players.

Second, I agree with this point. You can't compare stats across eras without some sort of adjustment. Here are my adjusted Ranger stats:

Name GP G A Pts
1 Frank Boucher 928 260 769 1,030
2 Rod Gilbert 1,156 411 589 1,000
3 Brian Leetch 1,111 245 717 962
4 Jean Ratelle 928 334 453 788
5 Bill Cook 845 396 391 787
6 Andy Bathgate 777 301 464 765
7 Mark Messier 729 274 452 726
8 Fred Cook 774 268 428 696
9 Walt Tkaczuk 985 216 408 625
10 Vic Hadfield 930 271 305 576

- Boucher is the all-time adjusted scoring leader for the Rangers. According to all sources, he was a Selke-calibre defender as well.
- Bill Cook was a true power forward before the term was even coined. Perhaps the term became associated with Cam Neely and others, but Cook, Howe, Lindsay, Conacher and Stewart played the same style, even better, decades in the past.

In terms of Bathgate vs Leetch... Leetch has the edge in all-star awards and has a Conn Smythe and two Norris trophies. He also has more points as a Ranger. Bathagate was a more dominant scorer and has a Hart, and was runner-up once. Seems pretty even. Many franchises would be envious to debate between who's better.
 

pnep

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Franchise's TOP-3 Greatest Players (by "HHOF Monitor Points")

Franchise -- Player -- "HHOF Monitor" Points
==================================
ANA

Kariya Paul -- 1112,08
Selanne Teemu -- 1059,4
Giguere Jean Sebastien -- 264,9

ATL

Kovalchuk Ilya -- 350,9
Heatley Dany -- 215,62
Stefan Patrik -- 78,03

BOS
Bourque Ray -- 4295,4
Orr Bobby -- 4033,26
Esposito Phil -- 3653,99

BUF

Hasek Dominik -- 3011,94
Perreault Gil -- 1096,92
Martin Rick -- 848,24

CAR

Francis Ron -- 722,98
Dineen Kevin -- 294,27
O'Neill Jeff -- 282,21

CGY

Macinnis Al -- 1626,46
Iginla Jarome -- 1053,31
Fleury Theo -- 748,59

CHI

Hull Bobby -- 3665,28
Mikita Stan -- 3583,61
Pilote Pierre -- 2397,58

CLB

Nash Rick -- 152,84
Sanderson Geoff -- 88,79
Whitney Ray -- 86,93

CLE

Hampson Ted -- 173,34
Vadnais Carol -- 164,32
Johnston Joey -- 111,51

COL

Sakic Joe -- 2277,52
Forsberg Peter -- 1540,91
Roy Patrick -- 925,4

DAL

Modano Mike -- 1052,95
Broten Neal -- 508,2
Bellows Brian -- 474,85

DET

Howe Gordie -- 6143,65
Lidstrom Nicklas -- 2473,01
Sawchuk Terry -- 2469,48

EDM

Gretzky Wayne -- 6084,39
Messier Mark -- 1900,97
Kurri Jari -- 1721,82

FLA

Bure Pavel -- 511,37
Vanbiesbrouck John -- 307,78
Mellanby Scott -- 225,46

HAM

Burch Billy -- 308,8
Malone Joe -- 300,33
Prodgers Goldie -- 225,59

LA

Gretzky Wayne -- 2159,44
Dionne Marcel -- 2004,77
Robitaille Luc -- 1356,82

MIN

Gaborik Marian -- 136,7
Brunette Andrew -- 103,27
Kuba Filip -- 85,99

MTL

Beliveau Jean -- 4253,44
Richard Maurice -- 3829,98
Lafleur Guy -- 3006,97

MTM

Stewart Nels -- 1190,11
Smith Hooley -- 757,26
Northcott Baldy -- 553,32

MTW

Ritchie Dave -- 28,03
Hyland Harry -- 11,28
Mcdonald Jack -- 9,2

NJ

Brodeur Martin -- 1986,83
Stevens Scott -- 1378,04
Niedermayer Scott -- 883,54

NSH

Walker Scott -- 120,7
Johnson Greg -- 115,89
Ronning Cliff -- 114,76

NYA

Schriner Sweeney -- 735,88
Worters Roy -- 556,72
Chapman Art -- 446,29

NYI

Potvin Denis -- 2618,39
Bossy Mike -- 2391,58
Trottier Bryan -- 2266,61

NYR

Boucher Frank -- 2308,19
Leetch Brian -- 1722,02
Cook Bill -- 1574,74

OTT

Yashin Alexei -- 540,55
Alfredsson Daniel -- 510,56
Chara Zdeno -- 338,54

OTT1

Denneny Cy -- 1464,41
Nighbor Frank -- 1333,54
Darragh Jack -- 793,21

PHI

Clarke Bobby -- 2207,41
Parent Bernie -- 1490,61
Howe Mark -- 1046,64

PHO

Hawerchuk Dale -- 744,28
Tkachuk Keith -- 589,31
Selanne Teemu -- 405,61

PIT

Lemieux Mario -- 4586,35
Jagr Jaromir -- 3053,82
Francis Ron -- 990,28

PTP

Darragh Harry -- 194,21
Milks Hib -- 194,06
Worters Roy -- 171,16

SJ

Nolan Owen -- 355,32
Nabokov Evgeni -- 263,7
Marleau Patrick -- 223,2

STL

Hull Brett -- 1634,31
Pronger Chris -- 960,98
Macinnis Al -- 864,67

TB

St.Louis Martin -- 817,09
Richards Brad -- 482,69
Lecavalier Vincent -- 267,71

TOR

Apps C.J. Syl -- 1991,12
Broda Turk -- 1974,75
Kennedy Ted -- 1780,31

VAN

Naslund Markus -- 1002,19
Bure Pavel -- 635,98
Linden Trevor -- 470,25

WAS

Langway Rod -- 934,96
Bondra Peter -- 735,75
Stevens Scott -- 493,22
 

Crosbyfan

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Nov 27, 2003
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Hockey Outsider said:
Same with Montreal. Maurice Richard is the epitome of hockey in Montreal, but Beliveau (and probably Harvey and Morenz) were better players.

.
Agree except for Morenz although his greatness certainly is up there.
 

Ogopogo*

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Leaf Lander said:
clancy for the leafs :D


Apps/ Kennedy/ Sittler / Bower /keon /Sundin


plus a few more could easily make that claime clancy played af ew seasons at the end of his career with the leafs

My gaffe. Clancy did play the majority of his career with Ottawa.

I would go with Kennedy or Mahovlich.
 

arrbez

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Jun 2, 2004
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It's weird how Toronto is historically the second most successful franchise, and yet doesn't really seem to have the starpower of a Boston or Detroit, and seemingly not even close to Montreal
 

JimEIV

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Feb 19, 2003
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pnep said:
Franchise's TOP-3 Greatest Players (by "HHOF Monitor Points")

Franchise -- Player -- "HHOF Monitor" Points
==================================
ANA

Kariya Paul -- 1112,08
Selanne Teemu -- 1059,4
Giguere Jean Sebastien -- 264,9

ATL

Kovalchuk Ilya -- 350,9
Heatley Dany -- 215,62
Stefan Patrik -- 78,03

BOS
Bourque Ray -- 4295,4
Orr Bobby -- 4033,26
Esposito Phil -- 3653,99

BUF

Hasek Dominik -- 3011,94
Perreault Gil -- 1096,92
Martin Rick -- 848,24

CAR

Francis Ron -- 722,98
Dineen Kevin -- 294,27
O'Neill Jeff -- 282,21

CGY

Macinnis Al -- 1626,46
Iginla Jarome -- 1053,31
Fleury Theo -- 748,59

CHI

Hull Bobby -- 3665,28
Mikita Stan -- 3583,61
Pilote Pierre -- 2397,58

CLB

Nash Rick -- 152,84
Sanderson Geoff -- 88,79
Whitney Ray -- 86,93

CLE

Hampson Ted -- 173,34
Vadnais Carol -- 164,32
Johnston Joey -- 111,51

COL

Sakic Joe -- 2277,52
Forsberg Peter -- 1540,91
Roy Patrick -- 925,4

DAL

Modano Mike -- 1052,95
Broten Neal -- 508,2
Bellows Brian -- 474,85

DET

Howe Gordie -- 6143,65
Lidstrom Nicklas -- 2473,01
Sawchuk Terry -- 2469,48

EDM

Gretzky Wayne -- 6084,39
Messier Mark -- 1900,97
Kurri Jari -- 1721,82

FLA

Bure Pavel -- 511,37
Vanbiesbrouck John -- 307,78
Mellanby Scott -- 225,46

HAM

Burch Billy -- 308,8
Malone Joe -- 300,33
Prodgers Goldie -- 225,59

LA

Gretzky Wayne -- 2159,44
Dionne Marcel -- 2004,77
Robitaille Luc -- 1356,82

MIN

Gaborik Marian -- 136,7
Brunette Andrew -- 103,27
Kuba Filip -- 85,99

MTL

Beliveau Jean -- 4253,44
Richard Maurice -- 3829,98
Lafleur Guy -- 3006,97

MTM

Stewart Nels -- 1190,11
Smith Hooley -- 757,26
Northcott Baldy -- 553,32

MTW

Ritchie Dave -- 28,03
Hyland Harry -- 11,28
Mcdonald Jack -- 9,2

NJ

Brodeur Martin -- 1986,83
Stevens Scott -- 1378,04
Niedermayer Scott -- 883,54

NSH

Walker Scott -- 120,7
Johnson Greg -- 115,89
Ronning Cliff -- 114,76

NYA

Schriner Sweeney -- 735,88
Worters Roy -- 556,72
Chapman Art -- 446,29

NYI

Potvin Denis -- 2618,39
Bossy Mike -- 2391,58
Trottier Bryan -- 2266,61

NYR

Boucher Frank -- 2308,19
Leetch Brian -- 1722,02
Cook Bill -- 1574,74

OTT

Yashin Alexei -- 540,55
Alfredsson Daniel -- 510,56
Chara Zdeno -- 338,54

OTT1

Denneny Cy -- 1464,41
Nighbor Frank -- 1333,54
Darragh Jack -- 793,21

PHI

Clarke Bobby -- 2207,41
Parent Bernie -- 1490,61
Howe Mark -- 1046,64

PHO

Hawerchuk Dale -- 744,28
Tkachuk Keith -- 589,31
Selanne Teemu -- 405,61

PIT

Lemieux Mario -- 4586,35
Jagr Jaromir -- 3053,82
Francis Ron -- 990,28

PTP

Darragh Harry -- 194,21
Milks Hib -- 194,06
Worters Roy -- 171,16

SJ

Nolan Owen -- 355,32
Nabokov Evgeni -- 263,7
Marleau Patrick -- 223,2

STL

Hull Brett -- 1634,31
Pronger Chris -- 960,98
Macinnis Al -- 864,67

TB

St.Louis Martin -- 817,09
Richards Brad -- 482,69
Lecavalier Vincent -- 267,71

TOR

Apps C.J. Syl -- 1991,12
Broda Turk -- 1974,75
Kennedy Ted -- 1780,31

VAN

Naslund Markus -- 1002,19
Bure Pavel -- 635,98
Linden Trevor -- 470,25

WAS

Langway Rod -- 934,96
Bondra Peter -- 735,75
Stevens Scott -- 493,22


Are these Votes??


Calgary is very surprising that there is no Joey Mullen (54 All Time in scoring) or Joe Nieuwendyk (56th All Time in scoring), or even Gary Suter who is currently 95th All time in scoring. No offense to Jerome, but no way should he be considered one of Calgary's greatest ever players over these guys (currently, maybe 10 years from that will change)


Washington No Dale Hunter??? (Good enough to be 62nd All time in scoring) 1000+ points and 3000+ PIMs
 

Psycho Papa Joe

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I'll base my list on players I've seen at their peak and more than 50% of their careers:

New Jersey Devils - Martin Brodeur
New York Islanders - Denis Potvin
New York Rangers - Mark Messier
Philadelphia Flyers - Bobby Clarke
Pittsburgh Penguins - Mario Lemieux

Boston Bruins - Ray Bourque
Buffalo Sabres - Dominik Hasek
Montreal Canadiens - Guy Lafleur
Ottawa Senators - Daniel Alfredsson
Toronto Maple Leafs - Daryl Sittler

Atlanta Thrashers - Ilya Kovalchuk
Carolina Hurricanes/Hartford - Ron Francis
Florida Panthers - Pavel Bure
Tampa Bay Lightning - Martin St. Louis
Washington Capitals - Rod Langway

Chicago Blackhawks - Chris Chelios
Columbus Blue Jackets - Rick Nash
Detroit Red Wings - Steve Yzerman
Nashville Predators - Tomas Vokoun
St. Louis Blues - Chris Pronger

Calgary Flames - Al MacInnis
Colorado Avalanche - Joe Sakic
Edmonton Oilers - Wayne Gretzky
Minnesota Wild - Marian Gaborik
Vancouver Canucks - Markus Naslund

Anaheim Ducks - Paul Kariya
Dallas Stars - Mike Modano
Los Angeles Kings - Marcel Dionne
Phoenix Coyotes - Dale Hawerchuk
San Jose Sharks - Owen Nolan
 

Evil Sather

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Brian Leetch was easily the best Ranger player of my lifetime and likely ever, for the '94 season alone. He could have retired in 1995 and he'd stay that way. A great regular season, PPG as a defensemen, but a dominant playoffs, 34 points in 23 games as a DEFENSEMEN, a level not equaled since Bobby Orr, and just 100% dominance of games, playing 30+ minutes, scoring, throwing hip checks, for that run alone he deserved it. He raised his play to a level I haven't seen since..

Yeah, I'm a Rangers fan, but watch a few of those playoff games and tell me every 2-3 minutes you don't go "wow #2 made a great play".
 

silver_made*

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New Jersey Devils - Martin Brodeur
New York Islanders - Mike Bossy
New York Rangers - Mark Messier
Philadelphia Flyers - Bobby Clarke
Pittsburgh Penguins - Mario Lemieux

Boston Bruins - Ray Bourque
Buffalo Sabres - Dominik Hasek
Montreal Canadiens - Maurice Richard
Ottawa Senators - Daniel Alfredsson
Toronto Maple Leafs - Daryl Sittler

Atlanta Thrashers - Ilya Kovalchuk
Carolina Hurricanes/Hartford - Ron Francis
Florida Panthers - John Vanbiesbrouck
Tampa Bay Lightning - Brad Richards
Washington Capitals - Peter Bondra

Chicago Blackhawks - Bobby Hull
Columbus Blue Jackets - Rick Nash
Detroit Red Wings - Steve Yzerman
Nashville Predators - Tomas Vokoun
St. Louis Blues - Brett Hull

Calgary Flames - Al MacInnis
Colorado Avalanche - Joe Sakic
Edmonton Oilers - Wayne Gretzky
Minnesota Wild - Marian Gaborik
Vancouver Canucks - Trevor Linden

Anaheim Ducks - Paul Kariya
Dallas Stars - Mike Modano
Los Angeles Kings - Luc Robitaille
Phoenix Coyotes - Dale Hawerchuk
San Jose Sharks - Owen Nolan
 

tom_servo

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Sep 27, 2002
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Ogopogo said:
Roloson has been in the top 7 vote getters for the Vezina trophy two years in a row. That is a great accomplishment. Granted, that does not put him in the top 50 goalies of all time but, it is a modest amount of greatness.

Why are you trying to apply some arbitrary standard of greatness? Vokoun is the best-ever Predator. What more are you looking for?
 

Tawnos

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Sep 10, 2004
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Charlotte, NC
Leetch has had a better career as a Ranger than Mark Messier.

The only guy, IMO, that can even be put on the same level as Leetch as a Rangers is Gilbert. Course, Boucher could be up there as well.
 

crump

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Feb 26, 2004
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Nice list...I would change a few based on personal preference (more like "face of the franchise")

see ..Gretzky....Edmonton
Dionne - Los Angeles
Mike Bossy - NYI
Alfredsson - Ottawa

I guess you could give Bure to the Panthers...he probably should be with Vancouver though...I think Panther fans would pick Scott Mellanby or Robert Svehla

Give the Preds at least Vokoun or Sullivan
 

reckoning

Registered User
Jan 4, 2005
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pnep said:
BOS
Bourque Ray -- 4295,4
Orr Bobby -- 4033,26
Esposito Phil -- 3653,99

Bobby Orr played less than half the number of years that Bourque did, yet almost beats him here; that tells you who the best Bruin really was.



EDM

Gretzky Wayne -- 6084,39
Messier Mark -- 1900,97
Kurri Jari -- 1721,82

Very accurate portrayal of how much better Gretzky was than his Oiler teammates.

OTT

Yashin Alexei -- 540,55
Alfredsson Daniel -- 510,56
Chara Zdeno -- 338,54

No Ottawa fan will ever admit it, but it`s the truth.

PHI

Clarke Bobby -- 2207,41
Parent Bernie -- 1490,61
Howe Mark -- 1046,64

How about that? Mark Howe, apparently not good enough for the Hall, finishes higher than the "Hall of Famer" Bill Barber.

TOR

Apps C.J. Syl -- 1991,12
Broda Turk -- 1974,75
Kennedy Ted -- 1780,31

Apps would`ve been my choice as well, but there`s literally at least a dozen guys you could make an argument for in this case.
 

Chileiceman

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Toronto
These are my picks based not so much on who was better, but more based on who best represents the franchise

New Jersey Devils - Martin Brodeur
New York Islanders - Mike Bossy
New York Rangers - Rod Gilbert/Brian Leetch
Philadelphia Flyers - Bobby Clarke
Pittsburgh Penguins - Mario Lemieux

Boston Bruins - Bobby Orr
Buffalo Sabres - Dominik Hasek
Montreal Canadiens - Maurice Richard
Ottawa Senators - Daniel Alfredsson
Toronto Maple Leafs - Darryl Sittler

Atlanta Thrashers - Ilya Kovalchuk
Carolina Hurricanes - Ron Francis
Florida Panthers - John Vanbisbruck (sp?)
Tampa Bay Lightning - Brad Richards
Washington Capitals - Peter Bondra

Chicago Blackhawks - Bobby Hull
Columbus Blue Jackets - Rick Nash
Detroit Red Wings - Gordie Howe
Nashville Predators - Tomas Vokoun
St. Louis Blues - Brett Hull

Calgary Flames - Theo Fleury
Colorado Avalanche - Joe Sakic
Edmonton Oilers - Wayne Gretzky
Minnesota Wild - Marian Gaborik
Vancouver Canucks - Pavel Bure

Anaheim Ducks - Paul Kariya
Dallas Stars - Mike Modano
Los Angeles Kings - Marcel Dionne
Phoenix Coyotes - Dale Hawerchuk
San Jose Sharks - Owen Nolan
 
Last edited:

Ogopogo*

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tom_servo said:
Why are you trying to apply some arbitrary standard of greatness? Vokoun is the best-ever Predator. What more are you looking for?

I am looking for a player that establishes himself as superior league wide. That would include serious consideration for a Hart or Vezina trophy or a Conn Smythe.

Vokoun, although very good, has never had serious consideration. That means he has never dominated in the league.
 

Stephen

Moderator
Feb 28, 2002
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Ogopogo said:
Because of era, #of games scheduled games and other systemic differences, raw point totals cannot be compared. Players pre 1970 will always rank behind 1970-1995 players in raw numbers. That is just the difference in the eras. Looking beyond the numbers gives us a better idea of what they mean. Bathgate spent a lot more time near the top of the NHL scoring race than Gilbert, Leetch, Ratelle and Messier. Bathgate just played 70 game seasons during a more defensive era.

Andy Bathgate's top 7 finishes in NHL scoring shouldn't really be considered when it comes to the measure of greatness. Those things just don't compare to what Messier and Leetch have done for the New York Rangers. Leetch has awards galore, Messier captained the team to a cup, win a Hart Trophy, was an all-star many times and both were iconic Rangers for years.
 

Frightened Inmate #2

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Ogopogo said:
I am looking for a player that establishes himself as superior league wide. That would include serious consideration for a Hart or Vezina trophy or a Conn Smythe.

Vokoun, although very good, has never had serious consideration. That means he has never dominated in the league.

I guess your system doesn't count the team that the players play with, I mean you put Vokoun with the Wild and do you know what you will find, he would put up great numbers and he would get all the recognition as being a great goaltender that you seem to give Roloson. I mean I am not saying that Roloson isn't a good goaltender, but what I guess I am saying is that to say he had a top 7 voting and thus he dominated would be faulty logic. No there are other reasons - he plays behind a very defensive team - his stats become a bit inflated as a result - he gets more votes than the better goaltender in Vokoun.
 

Stephen

Moderator
Feb 28, 2002
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Ogopogo said:
I am looking for a player that establishes himself as superior league wide. That would include serious consideration for a Hart or Vezina trophy or a Conn Smythe.

Vokoun, although very good, has never had serious consideration. That means he has never dominated in the league.

If Vokoun doesn't make your list, Dwayne Roloson doesn't either. It doesn't matter that he finished somewhere in Vezina voting. He was nowhere close to winning, and never deserved to. He has been a career backup who managed to find a job with Minnesota where he's had decent success. Unlike Vokoun, Roloson isn't even a clear cut number one goalie in the NHL.
 
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