Post-Game Talk: Fourteen. Pens/Jets Plus-Minus Thread

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nhindian

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Jul 4, 2009
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The defense should be

Letang
Martin
Niskanen
Murray
Orpik
Despres

I don't care what the pairs are. But those are the best 6 d-men on the team.

You forgot Eaton.

Sorry, but he's been incredibly solid since he's been here.
 

nhindian

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Jul 4, 2009
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Also, may have missed it, but heard Bort was sent down and playing with WBS two nights ago... thought he had to clear waivers?
 

Ogrezilla

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Does anyone else get a comforting feeling that we are arguing over which of Kunitz, Dupuis, Neal, Iggy, Morrow has to play on line 3?
haha it is a nice problem to have
Exactly, he did his best, no grudge against him but it's not enough.
How did he create goal? He was just hanging around the net, draw attention of dmen, but it doesn't require too much effort.

yet no other play on our team can do it.

oh, and you're wrong. Its incredibly difficult. Watch how much abuse he takes in there. There's a reason not many players are good at it.
 

Jag68Sid87

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Oct 1, 2003
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I have to say I share all your concerns, but we won't really know before post-deadline, when the roster limits are off. Which is soon enough. Right now it would be a waste having to waive anyone and therefore Bennett and Despres have to go down as it fits the numbers.

But surely, Despres, BB and Vitale are all part of our best possible game day roster.

Of course they are. I may argue for Jeffrey over Vitale but that's semantics at this point.

But as long as Bylsma's coaching, we know we won't be icing our best game-day roster.

Unless Shero takes away one of his toys...
 

Jag68Sid87

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Also, may have missed it, but heard Bort was sent down and playing with WBS two nights ago... thought he had to clear waivers?

He is on a conditioning assignment. Roster spot remains for him, and he must return to Pittsburgh after the two week stint is up.

He needed to play, it was a good move.
 

UnderratedBrooks44

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Sep 13, 2005
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You forgot Eaton.

Sorry, but he's been incredibly solid since he's been here.

Eaton playing for Despres is far from the worst thing in the world. Hell, a lot of Despres' appeal is his ability to create some offense. Quite frankly we don't need that at all. So you're left with his defensive game which has been pretty good especially for his age, but the playoffs are different. Some people will not take anyone's word for it for some reason, but it is. Every time the puck is dumped into your corner the other team is coming after you. You're getting hit (again, every time) and they're trying to force an error every time you touch the puck. It's not like that in the regular season, where a lot of dumps result in mediocre pressure and the other team isn't always buzzing around the net. In the playoffs all these things happen consistently, every single game. I'd rather have Eaton in there as much as it pains a lot of people who love to cheer for the young guys.
 

Ogrezilla

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Eaton playing for Despres is far from the worst thing in the world. Hell, a lot of Despres' appeal is his ability to create some offense. Quite frankly we don't need that at all. So you're left with his defensive game which has been pretty good especially for his age, but the playoffs are different. Some people will not take anyone's word for it for some reason, but it is. Every time the puck is dumped into your corner the other team is coming after you. You're getting hit (again, every time) and they're trying to force an error every time you touch the puck. It's not like that in the regular season, where a lot of dumps result in mediocre pressure and the other team isn't always buzzing around the net. In the playoffs all these things happen consistently, every single game. I'd rather have Eaton in there as much as it pains a lot of people who love to cheer for the young guys.

If Despres can't keep his play up in the playoffs, I'll be thrilled to have Eaton waiting in the box. As it stands, Despres is the better player this year. He provides transition more than offense. I think that's a worthwhile distinction. And he is very very good at it. He's also big and fast. I like those things in the playoffs.

When we are stuck in our zone, I'd rather have Eaton. But I think we'll get stuck in our zone less often with Despres. Similar to where the forwards should play, this is a good problem to have. And with Engelland in line after them even
 

od71

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Apr 8, 2012
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haha it is a nice problem to have


yet no other play on our team can do it.

oh, and you're wrong. Its incredibly difficult. Watch how much abuse he takes in there. There's a reason not many players are good at it.
May be effort is not a right word here. Better skillset. But it doesn't change the meaning. The 3rd wheel player in a 1st or 2nd line has to take some load of defensive work, not just play in front of the net.
 

UnrealMachine

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Jul 9, 2012
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I disagree. What about the times the defenders followed him to the goal? That happened all night and created space for Geno and Neal that simply wouldn't be there with Dupuis on that wing.

You are erroneously deriving correlation from happenstance on this play. Morrow drew exactly one (1) defender on that goal. The other defender was making a b-line to the puck and happened to be right next to Morrow when the pass was made. He wasn't drawing double coverage.

That withstanding, he did well on that play. However, for every good play he may have made, I counted about 6 that he didn't whether it was getting beat to a loose pucks (footspeed), turnovers, being behind the play defensively (as others noted, him camped on the blueline limits how deep Malkin/Neal can play). I don't dislike the player per se, but he is extremely replaceable on that line and will soon be replaced in my opinion for someone better.
 

Tender Rip

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Feb 12, 2007
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Eaton playing for Despres is far from the worst thing in the world. Hell, a lot of Despres' appeal is his ability to create some offense. Quite frankly we don't need that at all. So you're left with his defensive game which has been pretty good especially for his age, but the playoffs are different. Some people will not take anyone's word for it for some reason, but it is. Every time the puck is dumped into your corner the other team is coming after you. You're getting hit (again, every time) and they're trying to force an error every time you touch the puck. It's not like that in the regular season, where a lot of dumps result in mediocre pressure and the other team isn't always buzzing around the net. In the playoffs all these things happen consistently, every single game. I'd rather have Eaton in there as much as it pains a lot of people who love to cheer for the young guys.

Despres will make a mistake once in a while that Eaton would not. He will also bail out a partner/forwards more through superior skating, win more board battles because of his size/strenght advantage, and do immeasurably more for our transition game. He is just a much superior player.

....but I love to have Eaton as a depth option, and largely he has done a great job.
 

UnderratedBrooks44

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If Despres can't keep his play up in the playoffs, I'll be thrilled to have Eaton waiting in the box. As it stands, Despres is the better player this year. He provides transition more than offense. I think that's a worthwhile distinction. And he is very very good at it. He's also big and fast. I like those things in the playoffs.

When we are stuck in our zone, I'd rather have Eaton. But I think we'll get stuck in our zone less often with Despres. Similar to where the forwards should play, this is a good problem to have. And with Engelland in line after them even

I understand. Honestly I think Eaton does a fine enough job at those things that I'd rather just not take any risk, even a slight one, and play him instead.
 

Ogrezilla

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You are erroneously deriving correlation from happenstance on this play. Morrow drew exactly one (1) defender on that goal. The other defender was making a b-line to the puck and happened to be right next to Morrow when the pass was made. He wasn't drawing double coverage.

That withstanding, he did well on that play. However, for every good play he may have made, I counted about 6 that he didn't whether it was getting beat to a loose pucks (footspeed), turnovers, being behind the play defensively (as others noted, him camped on the blueline limits how deep Malkin/Neal can play). I don't dislike the player per se, but he is extremely replaceable on that line and will soon be replaced in my opinion for someone better.

great. You aren't entirely wrong. But I think if that's his game, that line is the best place for it. Do we want him camping the goal line on our shutdown 3rd line clearing space for Cooke and Sutter?
 

UnderratedBrooks44

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Despres will make a mistake once in a while that Eaton would not. He will also bail out a partner/forwards more throughuch superior skating, win more board battles and do immeasurably more for our transition game. He is just a much superior player.

Much superior? When you factor in his ability to swoop in and help the offense I might agree. It's not necessary here though. We just need to use someone that will keep the puck out of the net. Eaton is the better choice in that regard. Regardless of size if Lucic is bearing down on someone I'd rather have it be Eaton than Despres. Eaton simply knows what he's doing more than Despres does, and I don't know how that can be disputed.

I will say this though: The first round and maybe the second should be, dare I say, easy for this team. If you want to put Despres in and have him learn the ropes against Carolina or someone on the way to playing in a much tougher series that's certainly a valid way to go. At that point though it just sounds like we're making concessions so a certain player we like can get in there.
 

Jag68Sid87

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Despres will make a mistake once in a while that Eaton would not. He will also bail out a partner/forwards more throughuch superior skating, win more board battles and do immeasurably more for our transition game. He is just a much superior player.

Maybe they should both play over Orpik. Not saying bench Orpik but at least we have left-handed and right-handed options on D right now. AND, we have a crease-clearer, a stabilizing influence and a puck mover with offensive upside AND size on the left side.

If Orpik looks anything like last spring, we wouldn't miss a beat if we sat him...and that is a great feeling.
 

Ogrezilla

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I understand. Honestly I think Eaton does a fine enough job at those things that I'd rather just not take any risk, even a slight one, and play him instead.

They both do a fine enough job I think. Not a bad problem to have. I won't be outraged at whatever decision is made. I personally would choose Despres though.
 

Ogrezilla

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Much superior? When you factor in his ability to swoop in and help the offense I might agree. It's not necessary here though. We just need to use someone that will keep the puck out of the net. Eaton is the better choice in that regard. Regardless of size if Lucic is bearing down on someone I'd rather have it be Eaton than Despres. Eaton simply knows what he's doing more than Despres does, and I don't know how that can be disputed.

I will say this though: The first round and maybe the second should be, dare I say, easy for this team. If you want to put Despres in and have him learn the ropes against Carolina or someone on the way to playing in a much tougher series that's certainly a valid way to go.

After a few games of taking those hits, I don't know that Eaton will still be the better option. Despres is a big boy. His decisions are his issue. I worry about Eaton's body in that same scenario.
 

UnderratedBrooks44

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They both do a fine enough job I think. Not a bad problem to have. I won't be outraged at whatever decision is made. I personally would choose Despres though.

Yeah I think that bears mentioning for me too. I wouldn't lose sleep of either of them playing. I guess the tie breaker for me would just be if Despres makes a blatant mistake that costs us an impactful goal against in the playoffs I would likely put in Eaton in after that. If the situation were the opposite I wouldn't worry much and just keep Eaton playing.
 

Terrapin

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Mar 6, 2007
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Since everyone is putting their line opinions, here's mine:

Kunitz-Sid-Iggy
Morrow-Geno-Neal
Cooke-Suter-Dupuis
Glass-Adams-Kennedy
Vitale
DJ

Letang-Despres/Eaton
Orpik-Martin
Murray-Nisky
Eaton/Despres
Engo

Yeah yeah, 'how could you put Glass in there??!!' Well, he sucks. But he's going to be there. He kills penalties and Vitale and Bennett don't. Simple as that. Bennett is going to be great, but he's not going to crack this lineup unless it's on the 4th line, and I'd rather see him playing in WBS than getting 4 minutes a night here.

I also hate Kennedy too, but like Glass, he's going to play as long as he's on the team.

Defensively, I just don't think Eaton is going to hold up. He's old. He was on the street a few weeks ago. And now we have him playing w/ Letang?? Whatever. He's played really well, but I thought looked a little slow and shaky the last few games. He'd probably be great sitting a few games here and there, but apparently DB will play him till he literally drops of a coronary.

Murray looked awesome last night. But he really isn't very quick. May be great against Boston, but how would he handle a speedy team like Montreal or Toronto? If he struggles, Engo can play some games for him, and we'd still keep some of that back end toughness.
 

nhindian

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Jul 4, 2009
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ya, he's our clear number 7. I love Eaton. But he's not as good as any of those 6 guys.

I'd take him over Despres atm.

Going forward, obviously not, but Despres HAS had some glaring turnovers, despite making up for it with some dazzling offensive play.

But in the playoffs I'd rather have Eaton.
 

IcedCapp

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Aug 7, 2009
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I'm going for the reverse jinx. I've thought they were due for a loss for the last 9 games, no way I'm going to stop thinking that now. :laugh:

I would like to see at least one game with Iginla on the 1st line and Dupuis on the 3rd. Dupuis has earned his spot with Sid but I'm hoping DB does a lot of mixing and matching over this last part of the season to see who fits best where. In the end I don't care who ends up on which line as long as it's the best possible combo.

I'm all in on the reverse jinx. Islanders, man, can't beat 'em.
 

UnderratedBrooks44

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Since everyone is putting their line opinions, here's mine:

Kunitz-Sid-Iggy
Morrow-Geno-Neal
Cooke-Suter-Dupuis
Glass-Adams-Kennedy
Vitale
DJ

Letang-Despres/Eaton
Orpik-Martin
Murray-Nisky
Eaton/Despres
Engo

Yeah yeah, 'how could you put Glass in there??!!' Well, he sucks. But he's going to be there. He kills penalties and Vitale and Bennett don't. Simple as that. Bennett is going to be great, but he's not going to crack this lineup unless it's on the 4th line, and I'd rather see him playing in WBS than getting 4 minutes a night here.

I also hate Kennedy too, but like Glass, he's going to play as long as he's on the team.

Defensively, I just don't think Eaton is going to hold up. He's old. He was on the street a few weeks ago. And now we have him playing w/ Letang?? Whatever. He's played really well, but I thought looked a little slow and shaky the last few games. He'd probably be great sitting a few games here and there, but apparently DB will play him till he literally drops of a coronary.

Murray looked awesome last night. But he really isn't very quick. May be great against Boston, but how would he handle a speedy team like Montreal or Toronto? If he struggles, Engo can play some games for him, and we'd still keep some of that back end toughness.

I agree with your lines. Morrow is the key though. If he can keep up with that line consistently (not just against defensively challenged teams like the Jets) then it's all gravy.

Despite everything we've seen I put Iginla in Dupuis' place. You almost have to IMO. Neal/Malkin/Iginla is too many shooters and there isn't any distinction as far as who's doing the dirty work and who's trying to get open.

Here's the other thing: Kunitz and Dupuis are burying every single chance just about and they've been amazing. That being said the best line in hockey is composed of Crosby and two good players, not necessarily these two and only these two. Crosby is so good right now it's extremely possible and maybe even likely that Iginla will outperform Dupuis in that spot.

The last thing is Dupuis makes the third line awesome. Add it all up and this is the way to go IMO
 

spcastlemagic

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Jul 3, 2006
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Has anybody really thought about Cooke - Sutter - Iginla? Iggy's been going against top defense his entire NHL career. Instead of using him to bolster two extremely potent lines, why not try to put him in a position to feast on inferior competition?
 
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