NoNecksCurse
#164303
- Oct 19, 2011
- 13,236
- 4,958
Forwards Time on Ice
- Thread starter triggrman
- Start date
Until you remember Suter never moves anyone from out in front of the goalie, consistantly gets beat and manhandled down low, in the corners or on the boards or pound your head when another of his "shots" get blocked easily.
NoNecksCurse
#164303
- Oct 19, 2011
- 13,236
- 4,958
they both play different games.. no denying weber has a more rare skill set but that doesn't mean he is more effective. weber just needs to step his game up and lead. jones is making more contributions to the team than weber. what good are weber's skills if he doesn't use them
101st_fan
I taught Yoda
Trotz is gone if the team goes 2-11-0 for October. If the team is 2-3-8, who the hell knows what happens.
The same questions apply to the Rangers right now as well ... what happens to the new guy if they are 2-10-0 for October?
NoNecksCurse
#164303
- Oct 19, 2011
- 13,236
- 4,958
he gone...
just hard to see trotz gone... talk is one thing... we are getting way ahead right now. we start slow but its no excuse. a good effort and win saturday will quiet the noise till tuesday
101st_fan
I taught Yoda
If Trotz loses the room he's gone. If he goes 2-11-0, he's gone. If the players keep responding and the team is sitting around 10 points at the end of the month, he probably remains but on a pretty warm seat. If the team is at 13+ points through the first 13 games, he's probably safe.
glenngineer
Registered User
At one point I remember Gaustad centering Nystrom and Spaling and thinking, that should be our 4th line. Hendricks has shown me nothing so far. Cullen has about one good move a game. Nystrom is the only one of the new signings worth anything and I honestly thought he was the one that was going to be severely overpaid.
Here's my thinking on TOI, you play your best players the most amount of time. Our 6 best forwards should be getting a ton of time, the next 3 should be getting a little less as they won't be getting PP time and our 4th line should be doing the majority of PK time and some shifts here and again. I look at the lines that have been used and honestly I haven't seen a line that wows me offensively, that just clicks but at the same time, I see the guys out there skating hard and not giving up. It would've been easy for them to throw in the towel after the 4th goal last night but even on the last shift the guys were still out there trying so that says something to me. This isn't the same team effort wise as last year. Last year they would've folded and given up. There is fight in these guys.
The problem is still that we don't have guys that can finish. Someone mentioned we play too much of a perimeter game. I have said this for years. We send three guys below the goal line and have no one in front. You can't win without traffic and guys going to the net. You can't win with guys who don't have the ability to beat the goalie with a great shot from time to time. You can't win with grinders playing more minutes than your top offensive players. You can't win with guys who have to ride the bus as opposed to being with the big club because they're waiver eligible. You play the best 12 forwards and 6 best defensemen every night and put them in a position to succeed.
I have not been unhappy with the teams performance just the results. The puck movement on the PP is dramatically improved. It's crisp and definitive for once. We also have two guys in Jones and Forsberg who make it a lot better because they are pretty amazing puck handlers. And as much as I like Fisher, he has no business being on the PP just as Cullen has no business being on the point on the PP.
I think the pieces are there with the forwards we have but we need to have lines that make sense. Great lines usually have a center that is a good playmaker and two way guy, a sniper and a guy that has some size/grit that can go win some battles. It seems like Cullen's line is a bunch of guys who are very similar. Fisher's line doesn't have enough speed to me other than Fisher. Legwand's line has Forsberg but Nystrom has no business being out there with them.
And it's funny that Bourque got sat the other night considering he's usually a high energy player with attention to detail but he hasn't looked the same for whatever reason. He may be gun shy because of his injuries last year. Who knows. Wilson may be feeling the same way to some extent and I wonder if Gaustad is worried about contact as well since I haven't seen him hit anything other than Hendricks.
The fact remains that this team starts slowly every year and many people have a problem with this. If it happens every now and again it's one thing but year after year is a trend and it's not a good one. These guys should be ready to play when the season starts. Instead of having a camp full of guys that have no chance of making it, have the guys that will be on the roster working together from day 1. Yes, it's nice to see what you have in the system but if you have 3 weeks to get in sync for the season, especially with a high roster turnover, practice and get in sync, build some chemistry, figure out who can play with who to maximize each and every game you play. It's mind numbing that we as fans can see this but the staff is doing what they do without making the adjustments.
I think if the teams record goes south, Trotz will be gone quickly. There is no reason to wait this thing out. I think the firing of Horachek and bringing in Housley was a message that was loud and clear to all and if it doesn't turn around before the road trip starting next week, we could see a change. Am I advocating, yes and no but this is more speculation on my part from events by Poile and ownership more than anything. I think the guys are working out there but they aren't following through completely on the game plan or they are following it to a t and that's the problem.
Here's my thinking on TOI, you play your best players the most amount of time. Our 6 best forwards should be getting a ton of time, the next 3 should be getting a little less as they won't be getting PP time and our 4th line should be doing the majority of PK time and some shifts here and again. I look at the lines that have been used and honestly I haven't seen a line that wows me offensively, that just clicks but at the same time, I see the guys out there skating hard and not giving up. It would've been easy for them to throw in the towel after the 4th goal last night but even on the last shift the guys were still out there trying so that says something to me. This isn't the same team effort wise as last year. Last year they would've folded and given up. There is fight in these guys.
The problem is still that we don't have guys that can finish. Someone mentioned we play too much of a perimeter game. I have said this for years. We send three guys below the goal line and have no one in front. You can't win without traffic and guys going to the net. You can't win with guys who don't have the ability to beat the goalie with a great shot from time to time. You can't win with grinders playing more minutes than your top offensive players. You can't win with guys who have to ride the bus as opposed to being with the big club because they're waiver eligible. You play the best 12 forwards and 6 best defensemen every night and put them in a position to succeed.
I have not been unhappy with the teams performance just the results. The puck movement on the PP is dramatically improved. It's crisp and definitive for once. We also have two guys in Jones and Forsberg who make it a lot better because they are pretty amazing puck handlers. And as much as I like Fisher, he has no business being on the PP just as Cullen has no business being on the point on the PP.
I think the pieces are there with the forwards we have but we need to have lines that make sense. Great lines usually have a center that is a good playmaker and two way guy, a sniper and a guy that has some size/grit that can go win some battles. It seems like Cullen's line is a bunch of guys who are very similar. Fisher's line doesn't have enough speed to me other than Fisher. Legwand's line has Forsberg but Nystrom has no business being out there with them.
And it's funny that Bourque got sat the other night considering he's usually a high energy player with attention to detail but he hasn't looked the same for whatever reason. He may be gun shy because of his injuries last year. Who knows. Wilson may be feeling the same way to some extent and I wonder if Gaustad is worried about contact as well since I haven't seen him hit anything other than Hendricks.
The fact remains that this team starts slowly every year and many people have a problem with this. If it happens every now and again it's one thing but year after year is a trend and it's not a good one. These guys should be ready to play when the season starts. Instead of having a camp full of guys that have no chance of making it, have the guys that will be on the roster working together from day 1. Yes, it's nice to see what you have in the system but if you have 3 weeks to get in sync for the season, especially with a high roster turnover, practice and get in sync, build some chemistry, figure out who can play with who to maximize each and every game you play. It's mind numbing that we as fans can see this but the staff is doing what they do without making the adjustments.
I think if the teams record goes south, Trotz will be gone quickly. There is no reason to wait this thing out. I think the firing of Horachek and bringing in Housley was a message that was loud and clear to all and if it doesn't turn around before the road trip starting next week, we could see a change. Am I advocating, yes and no but this is more speculation on my part from events by Poile and ownership more than anything. I think the guys are working out there but they aren't following through completely on the game plan or they are following it to a t and that's the problem.
WartracePred
Registered User
- Sep 29, 2009
- 1,504
- 27
I don't really care how the team starts as long as they finish strong. Look at the body of Trotz's work. How many years have they make the playoffs? There had been a steady progression even in the post season until last year. A few first round exits, then two years of going to the 2nd round. In 2011-2012 they were true contenders for the Cup. Last year was an anomaly because of the shortened season and injuries.
Tell me what their record was in 2011-2012? They began the season 2-3-1. By the end of October they were 5-4-2. In November they were 6-5-2. But they finished 48-26-8.
Since they started slowly in 2011-2012, Trotz should have been fired after the first two weeks. Doesn't mean jack squat that the team finished with 104 points. Nope, forget about the season as a whole. If the Preds don't start fast out of the gate, the coach has to go. I always make important decisions based on 10% of the data.
Tell me what their record was in 2011-2012? They began the season 2-3-1. By the end of October they were 5-4-2. In November they were 6-5-2. But they finished 48-26-8.
Since they started slowly in 2011-2012, Trotz should have been fired after the first two weeks. Doesn't mean jack squat that the team finished with 104 points. Nope, forget about the season as a whole. If the Preds don't start fast out of the gate, the coach has to go. I always make important decisions based on 10% of the data.
glenngineer
Registered User
War, the flip side to that limited data argument is if the slow starts continually happen is that an issue even if we finish strong? How about starting strong and being ready to play from day 1 and playing strong all season long.
I think expectations need to be raised around here. We have owners that are above obviously willing to spend money so with that comes the expectation of winning games with the roster they're paying for. If Trotz and Poile felt the new signings were guys that would help this team achieve wins and they don't then the owners will have two choices, let it ride and see if the team develop or replace the coach and/or GM. If I'm an owner coming off last season and then dropping serious cash on free agents I want to see results. These guys are businessmen and results and money are the bottom line. We will see how this plays out and to be honest if they were just skating around with no purpose I'd be worried but the guys are buying in to what Trotz is selling.
I think expectations need to be raised around here. We have owners that are above obviously willing to spend money so with that comes the expectation of winning games with the roster they're paying for. If Trotz and Poile felt the new signings were guys that would help this team achieve wins and they don't then the owners will have two choices, let it ride and see if the team develop or replace the coach and/or GM. If I'm an owner coming off last season and then dropping serious cash on free agents I want to see results. These guys are businessmen and results and money are the bottom line. We will see how this plays out and to be honest if they were just skating around with no purpose I'd be worried but the guys are buying in to what Trotz is selling.
PFL615
Registered User
Actually he is. I have in person watched him poke check and get the puck away from other players numerous times. I've also watched as he has set several plays up and attempted several as well with no help. Faceoffs are not all about the faceoff center. It takes other people and i have watched over and over the other teams players get to the loose puck first by outworking.
Hockey is deeper than faceoff wins and points.
Do we play apes on skates or monkeys on skates? That's the real question with our line combinations.
Hands-down worst forward group in the NHL. Also, the most expensive 3rd and 4th line in the history of the NHL.
Wilson and Forseberg provide a glimmer of hope for the future, but only a glimmer.
Hands-down worst forward group in the NHL. Also, the most expensive 3rd and 4th line in the history of the NHL.
Wilson and Forseberg provide a glimmer of hope for the future, but only a glimmer.
WartracePred
Registered User
- Sep 29, 2009
- 1,504
- 27
I do think that Trotz and Poile are on a short leash after last season. I woudn't call it a hot seat just yet. But I don't think Ciggarran is going to allow mediocrity for any substantial amount of time. Look at the moves in spending and front office personnel since he took the reigns from Freeman. Firing Horecek (and the trainer??) were signs that something had to change. I believe those moves were message and came from above Poile.
If they don't start winning consistently with this group, I won't be surprised if Trotz is fired. But I don't think starting slow during October is enough to push ownership to that decision. The progression over the last 10 years is still trending up. If the team doesn't buy in to his system, he's done. I think they will buy in. And I think they'll start winning soon.
Forget about last season -- too many injuries, the loss of Suter, no training camp. etc... Would you fire Trotz today if the Preds were coming off of the 2nd round loss to Phoenix?
From what I have seen so far on the ice this year is a better looking team than what started the season two years ago and last season. The Predators typically start slow and with all the new faces learning exactly what Trotz wants along with a very young defense core we are playing really well overall. I really think if the team continues to play the way they have been and they start to gel with each other a bit more we could have a 500%+ team and maybe make the playoffs.
Right now they just have to tread water and win the games against the lower end teams until things come around.
I wish at some point Trotz would just stick to some consistant lines so they can get used to each otehr. Would love to see this...
Wilson/Fisher/Hornqvist
Smith/Legwand/Stalberg
Those are your top 6 forwards right now imo. Forsberg will be eventually but he isn't ready yet. Third line could be...
Nystrom/Cullen/Forsberg (Nystrom is out there to make sure people don't take free runs at FF)
4th line can be a mix of the rest.
Bourque/Gaustad/Spaling
Clune/Hendricks
I really hope we see these line combos and he sticks with them for more than half a game...
Right now they just have to tread water and win the games against the lower end teams until things come around.
I wish at some point Trotz would just stick to some consistant lines so they can get used to each otehr. Would love to see this...
Wilson/Fisher/Hornqvist
Smith/Legwand/Stalberg
Those are your top 6 forwards right now imo. Forsberg will be eventually but he isn't ready yet. Third line could be...
Nystrom/Cullen/Forsberg (Nystrom is out there to make sure people don't take free runs at FF)
4th line can be a mix of the rest.
Bourque/Gaustad/Spaling
Clune/Hendricks
I really hope we see these line combos and he sticks with them for more than half a game...
BigFatCat999
First Fubu and now Pred303. !@#$! you cancer
THANK YOU! Someone else who looks at ES TOI vs TOI.
Fact is you are going to get grinders and PK specialists who will get more time because of things like Hendricks 4:00 high sticking.
there weren't enough PP mins for the Preds.
Cullen has tried alot of backhand passes from behind the opponent's goal alot. You'd have to put a guy like Hornqvist on his line to put some of those in.
Speaking of those passes, it's really funny how much guys like Smith and Wilson are called out for turnovers, but where is the callout for Cullen's? Those have lead to turnovers and lead to one of the Islanders' goals on Saturday. I don't have a problem with it per say, as thats what you want your offensive guy's doing, but its another double standard when you look at the younger guys.
Speaking of those passes, it's really funny how much guys like Smith and Wilson are called out for turnovers, but where is the callout for Cullen's? Those have lead to turnovers and lead to one of the Islanders' goals on Saturday. I don't have a problem with it per say, as thats what you want your offensive guy's doing, but its another double standard when you look at the younger guys.
Now let's look at who's scored goals and show that in a line formation.
Forsberg-Fisher-Hornqvist
Nystrom-Legwand-Wilson
Gaustad
players not on here
Cullen, Smith, Spaling, Bourque, Clune and Hendricks.
Forsberg-Fisher-Hornqvist
Nystrom-Legwand-Wilson
Gaustad
players not on here
Cullen, Smith, Spaling, Bourque, Clune and Hendricks.
token grinder
Facts Get Deleted
We need to layer our attack better to do that. Can't have 3 guys below the goal line/on the halfboards. Need to have more action in the slot, not necessarily right in the goalies lap though. Too many pucks have come fishing through there not to have a player there. Even the weak side dman could flash in the slot on occasion. Granted, a 2 v 1 the other way could happen, but sometimes you gotta risk it.
No truer words have ever been spoken. Our system limits those risk but also limits scoring chances.
StarvinArvyn33
Registered User
NSH615
...
- Feb 13, 2013
- 11,119
- 981
I have not noticed very much of Hornqvist in his usual "In Front of the Net" spot this season. He seems to be going to the boards when he is out there.
Enoch
This is my boomstick
Not only are we simply rolling four lines at this point. We are playing the grinders more than our offensive players. It's .... Baffling.
101st_fan
I taught Yoda
The grinder line is cycling better and generating more chances than our alleged 2nd and 3rd lines. Gaustad and Hendricks with as many shots as Legwand and more shots per game than Forsberg, Bourque, or Spaling.
Enoch
This is my boomstick
So you are inferring that Gaustad and Hendricks should continue to get more ice time than our scoring forwards?
Hendricks had more TOI than Hornqvist, Wilson, Stalberg, Forsberg, Bourque, and Cullen.
He had 4 less seconds than Legwand. This is mind-numbingly against the grain.
Nystrom lead our forwards in TOI by over 2 minutes. Asinine.
101st_fan
I taught Yoda
Ice time is earned and right now Gaustad's line is getting as many quality chances as the alleged 2nd and 3rd lines while winning more faceoffs to earn the defensive zone starts. Last night was really the first time we had multiple lines really click on the same night. Still, we ended up needing defense which drove ice time.
Looking at Forsberg's ice time ... his shift total was good. Two of his shifts were ten and twelve seconds because of saves by Pekka resulting in defensive end draws. The Panthers put Goc on the ice, Trotz countered with Gaustad. It's an easy choice in that situation ... go with the hot hand or leave Legwand out there against a guy who is kicking his butt at the dot .... hmmmm.
I'm sure as the season shakes out and our middle lines form some chemistry that the ice time will shift more towards our preconceived notions of what it should look like. for now, I'm not worried about it. Lines that are working well together are getting their shifts and earning their minutes. The line combos somehow put four goals on the board last night.
Enoch
This is my boomstick
What about Hendricks? Justify nearly 16 minutes a night for a 4th liner. Or 19 minutes for nystrom? This is inane.
