Fort Worth's soon to be open Dickies Arena to host hockey?

[Tommy Hawk]

5:00 Pm Eastern time. If at 4:59 I need a player for the game that night, if the minor league player is 30 to 60 minuted from the game, I can get him there to play that night. If he in 8 hours away, I gotta let him now by 10 or 11 am. And that day counts as him being on the roster with NHL pay and NHL per diem. It's in the CBA. So being able to call up someone with short notice is big in the decision making process to use NHL salary that counts towards the cap. 286

 

[Barclay Donaldson]

5:00 Pm Eastern time. If at 4:59 I need a player for the game that night, if the minor league player is 30 to 60 minuted from the game, I can get him there to play that night. If he in 8 hours away, I gotta let him now by 10 or 11 am. And that day counts as him being on the roster with NHL pay and NHL per diem. It's in the CBA. So being able to call up someone with short notice is big in the decision making process to use NHL salary that counts towards the cap. 286

Two things:

1. You do realize that healthy scratches exist, right? There's guys sitting in the press box that don't play every game. There's 23 players on a roster, you do realize that? There is no situation in the present NHL where roster decisions are made at game time and there is the need for an extra player in order to ice a full team. That decision is made well before game time. There's three guys eating popcorn each game in the press box, it doesn't matter how many injuries there are on a team.

2. Even at Fort Worth, which is where you're proposing that they would go, it's near an hour for a call up to get there in metro traffic. From their current location in Cedar Park, it's 3 hours even. That's a difference of two hours. That's almost nothing. 12 hours and above I'm with you. But per diem and pay has absolutely no bearing on this situation. The few affiliations where this would even have any issue remotely is Vancouver-Utica and maybe one or two others. But a three hour call up is extremely quick. Most practices are late morning, players gets hurt at practice and in the current situation, players are there by noon or a little after if there is traffic. Three hour call up is one of the shortest in the league.

Closed book, end of discussion. The difference between a one and a three hour call up is negligible. This mere difference of two hours isn't enough of a time difference to affect per diem, pay, bonuses, or anything else you've asserted.

 

[Tommy Hawk]

Two things:

1. You do realize that healthy scratches exist, right? There's guys sitting in the press box that don't play every game. There's 23 players on a roster, you do realize that? There is no situation in the present NHL where roster decisions are made at game time and there is the need for an extra player in order to ice a full team. That decision is made well before game time. There's three guys eating popcorn each game in the press box, it doesn't matter how many injuries there are on a team.

2. Even at Fort Worth, which is where you're proposing that they would go, it's near an hour for a call up to get there in metro traffic. From their current location in Cedar Park, it's 3 hours even. That's a difference of two hours. That's almost nothing. 12 hours and above I'm with you. But per diem and pay has absolutely no bearing on this situation. The few affiliations where this would even have any issue remotely is Vancouver-Utica and maybe one or two others. But a three hour call up is extremely quick. Most practices are late morning, players gets hurt at practice and in the current situation, players are there by noon or a little after if there is traffic. Three hour call up is one of the shortest in the league.

Closed book, end of discussion. The difference between a one and a three hour call up is negligible. This mere difference of two hours isn't enough of a time difference to affect per diem, pay, bonuses, or anything else you've asserted.

You still do not get it. It's about being able to make the decision at 4:59 and have him available to play. Instead of making a decision at 10 in the morning and then not needing the player. The closer to 5 PM they can wait for the decision means if they do not need to call him up, that 1 day of per diem, of day counting on the roster, of NHL pay can be huge.

Ask Dale Tallon about how much difference an hour or so can make since it cost the Blackhawks millions of dollars when he failed to get the offers done by the deadline in accordance with the CBA.

 

[Barclay Donaldson]

You still do not get it. It's about being able to make the decision at 4:59 and have him available to play. Instead of making a decision at 10 in the morning and then not needing the player. The closer to 5 PM they can wait for the decision means if they do not need to call him up, that 1 day of per diem, of day counting on the roster, of NHL pay can be huge.

Ask Dale Tallon about how much difference an hour or so can make since it cost the Blackhawks millions of dollars when he failed to get the offers done by the deadline in accordance with the CBA.

You still don’t get it. No “AHL roster call up” decision is ever made at game time. It doesn’t happen. If it does, then there’s 3 healthy scratches there to jump into the lineup. You’re suggesting an impossible scenario. Especially since there’s only two or three NHL teams with a call up of under an hour. If this was a regular occurrence, every one would be in the same city? You think NHL teams haven’t realized this? It never happens. It will never happen. There’s extra roster spots for a reason. Get over it. NHL staff would be fired if they waited until the last second on a regular basis. It’s an amateur hour type of thing to do. If this is about that, then your argument is completely irrelevant.

What’s your obsession with per diem? Its $100 something dollars per player per day only when they’re on the road. As long as the player takes less than 24 hours to report, then it doesn't make any difference. You can put any AHL team anywhere and tell him to report anywhere, since it's on the road, and he can get there in less than 24 hours. Vancouver keeps their affiliate in Utica because they have healthy scratches for the purpose of short-term injuries and because if the parent team is traveling then it doesn't matter where the affiliate location is. They only get paid per diem on the road and it's a small amount at that. No organization worries about $100. That’s chump change.

The Dale Tallon thing you’re bringing up doesn’t deal with affiliate location either. He failed to make qualifying offers for players, his own fault, and those players went to arbitration after the deadline passed. That’s has nothing to do with AHL affiliate location. He just flat out didn’t put out offers due to his own incompetence, costing the club a lot of money at the arbitration table, not because Rockford was so far away at almost 2 hours. Get real.

 

[Tommy Hawk]

You still don't get it. Let me put this simply. It's about deadlines and cutoffs impacting the business of hockey and how teams manage their contracts and players.

 

[Barclay Donaldson]

You still don't get it. Let me put this simply. It's about deadlines and cutoffs impacting the business of hockey and how teams manage their contracts and players.

You don’t get it. There exists no deadlines or cutoffs that Ft. Worth wouldn’t face and Austin would when it comes to call ups or roster moves. Everything you’ve asserted has been refuted. Everything from per diem to the Tallon assertion and teams making roster decisions to bonuses. It’s all been shot down and you’ve simply continued to say I don’t understand. Use better examples or state things based in facts or logic, you’ve certainly not accomplished the latter.

There’s a lot organizations that have call up times of over 3 hours. Don’t you think that if what you’re asserting had any merit, or even mattered in the slightest, they would’ve relocated their team to as close as possible? Because Vancouver-Utica, Nashville-Milwaukee, Calgary-Stockton, Edmonton-Bakersfield, St. Louis-San Antonio, Tampa-Syracuse, Florida-Springfield, Minnesota-Des Moines, Vegas-Chicago, and New Jersey-Binghamton are well over or around 3 hours. If what you’re saying has any merit, don’t you think they would’ve done something by now? What you’re asserting isn’t based in facts or logic.

 

[Bluto]

I think that an ECHL team is entirely possible. Allen and Fort Worth are far enough apart for it to work, and it would make sense geographically. People in Fort Worth don't go to the Allen area accept to buy hockey gear. Like legit there is no other reason to go to Allen if you live in Fort Worth unless you want to go to the big hockey store up there. The Allen Americans get most of their crowd from Allen, McKinney, and Plano.
Fort Worth would draw on Keller, Fort Worth, Saginaw, Crowley, and even as far as Granbury. It would probably draw some nice crowds and possibly induce a little 817 vs 214 rivalry.

 

[Tommy Hawk]

You don’t get it. There exists no deadlines or cutoffs that Ft. Worth wouldn’t face and Austin would when it comes to call ups or roster moves. Everything you’ve asserted has been refuted. Everything from per diem to the Tallon assertion and teams making roster decisions to bonuses. It’s all been shot down and you’ve simply continued to say I don’t understand. Use better examples or state things based in facts or logic, you’ve certainly not accomplished the latter.

There’s a lot organizations that have call up times of over 3 hours. Don’t you think that if what you’re asserting had any merit, or even mattered in the slightest, they would’ve relocated their team to as close as possible? Because Vancouver-Utica, Nashville-Milwaukee, Calgary-Stockton, Edmonton-Bakersfield, St. Louis-San Antonio, Tampa-Syracuse, Florida-Springfield, Minnesota-Des Moines, Vegas-Chicago, and New Jersey-Binghamton are well over or around 3 hours. If what you’re saying has any merit, don’t you think they would’ve done something by now? What you’re asserting isn’t based in facts or logic.

So because less than 1/3 of the teams are over 3 hours and i would exclude the Nashville-Milwaukee and Iowa-Minnesota are less than 3 hours. That makes zero sense and it obviously is important to over 2/3 of the teams.

 

[JMCx4]

I think that an ECHL team is entirely possible. Allen and Fort Worth are far enough apart for it to work, and it would make sense geographically. ... Fort Worth would draw on Keller, Fort Worth, Saginaw, Crowley, and even as far as Granbury. It would probably draw some nice crowds and possibly induce a little 817 vs 214 rivalry.

@Bluto : I admire your enthusiasm, but I've gotta ask: What has changed in Ft. Worth that makes you think the hockey community can get beyond the legacy of the CHL Brahmas & make minor pro hockey popular in/around the city?

 

[Barclay Donaldson]

So because less than 1/3 of the teams are over 3 hours and i would exclude the Nashville-Milwaukee and Iowa-Minnesota are less than 3 hours. That makes zero sense and it obviously is important to over 2/3 of the teams.

Nashville to Milwaukee is a 3-4 hour flight or an 8 hour drive and Des Moines to Minneapolis-St Paul is also a 3-4 hour flight or a 3 1/2 hour drive. Be accurate. Most are at the two to three hour range. The only ones that are under an hour call up range are LA-Ontario, Montréal-Laval, Toronto-Toronto, Boston-Providence, San José-San José, and Winnipeg-Manitoba. There's fewer teams in that under one hour call up time than over 3 hours. Two of those teams (SJ-SJ and Peg-MB) play in the same arena, and Winnipeg has actively been searching to move the Moose, sources: True North has ‘preliminary’ plan for AHL team in Thunder Bay, Thunder Bay Still Considering Arena - Arena Digest, and https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/thunder-bay/aging-sports-facilities-1.4327910

Once again, everything you've asserted has been refuted. The per diem, bonuses, call ups, all the other assertions have been refuted. As long as the call up time is less than 24 hours, then they're earning their per diem or bonus. Since they only earn per diem on the road, and they somehow can't make it in under 24 hours, then it's $100 down the drain, that's a token fee. Your Tallon argument was irrelevant since it had to do with sending contract offers in the offseason and dealt with arbitration, not issues with call up times. The other ones were equally irrelevant. Almost a dozen teams have call up times of longer than 3 hours. There's 6 that are an hour or under. Of those 6, 4 are huge markets in hockey crazy areas that lead the AHL in attendance. One is San José, who actively looked for a place to put their team in the ECHL-AHL shuffle and missed out. They were unfortunate enough that none of Fresno, Reno, Sacremento, or the other 5-6 markets they were looking at didn't want them. The last, Winnipeg, has been actively looking to move the team out for 3 years. Those are the facts.

 

[BrettHullsToe]

Another data point: Seattle chose Palm Springs with a 2hr 40min flight over Boise with a 1 hr 35 min flight for their upcoming AHL affiliate.

 

[AdmiralsFan24]

Nashville to Milwaukee is a 3-4 hour flight or an 8 hour drive and Des Moines to Minneapolis-St Paul is also a 3-4 hour flight or a 3 1/2 hour drive. Be accurate.

LMAO. A flight from Milwaukee to Nashville is a little less than an hour and a half. How is a flight from Des Moines to Minneapolis the same amount of time as driving? Be accurate.

 

[Barclay Donaldson]

LMAO. A flight from Milwaukee to Nashville is a little less than an hour and a half. How is a flight from Des Moines to Minneapolis the same amount of time as driving? Be accurate.

Neither offers direct flights, that’s how. Since you’re a big Ads fan, you would know that MKE only offers seasonal, irregular Southwest flights that are 1 1/2 hours to Nashville. No other carrier does direct flights at all. The same situation exists in Des Moines. Hence why the Wild use private car services to to transport players for call ups, source: Call me maybe? The unpredictable life of an NHL call-up, and any of the half dozen humorous stories of Mikey Reilly’s call ups.

 

[Bluto]

@Bluto : I admire your enthusiasm, but I've gotta ask: What has changed in Ft. Worth that makes you think the hockey community can get beyond the legacy of the CHL Brahmas & make minor pro hockey popular in/around the city?

The Brahmas were very successful when they played in the convention center downtown. The problem is that the city of Fort Worth screwed them over when it came to their lease forcing them to move to Nytex. Now NYTEX is great for beer league but not so much a minor league hockey team and it sort of killed the team. I think that a recreation of the Brahmas in a nice arena like Dickeys would draw decent crowds. Not 12000 a game, mind you, but 4-5,000 on weekdays and close to 10,000 on Friday nights. That area of town has come a long way with 5th street and Montgomery plaza. So I could see a minor league team being successful there. I could see them having similar attendance as the Allen Americans.

 

[AdmiralsFan24]

Neither offers direct flights, that’s how. Since you’re a big Ads fan, you would know that MKE only offers seasonal, irregular Southwest flights that are 1 1/2 hours to Nashville.

It's hilarious that you tell others to be accurate yet continue to provide inaccurate information. Milwaukee has two flights everyday nonstop to Nashville. From Southwest's website, not that I need it because I have family in Nashville and know that Southwest added nonstop flights every day around a year ago but I doubt you'd believe me just telling you, so I'll show you.

 

[JMCx4]

... I think that a recreation of the Brahmas in a nice arena like Dickeys would draw decent crowds. Not 12000 a game, mind you, but 4-5,000 on weekdays and close to 10,000 on Friday nights. That area of town has come a long way with 5th street and Montgomery plaza. So I could see a minor league team being successful there. I could see them having similar attendance as the Allen Americans.

Your enthusiasm is boundless. Too bad reality doesn't share it with you. Even 4-5,000 on weekends might get a potential buyer's interest. But it wouldn't be enough to convince the Dickeys management to dedicate prime dates to a AA hockey team.

 

[axecrew]

It's hilarious that you tell others to be accurate yet continue to provide inaccurate information. Milwaukee has two flights everyday nonstop to Nashville. From Southwest's website, not that I need it because I have family in Nashville and know that Southwest added nonstop flights every day around a year ago but I doubt you'd believe me just telling you, so I'll show you.

Looks like Hutch has changed his moniker to barclay...or opened a new account.

 

[JMCx4]

Looks like Hutch has changed his moniker to barclay...or opened a new account.

New keyboard.

 

[PCSPounder]

Des Moines to Minneapolis-St Paul is also a 3-4 hour flight or a 3 1/2 hour drive. Be accurate.

If you add the commute to airport time, the waiting in ticketing time, the waiting in security time, and the "plane waiting for the lost older couple in the Starbucks in the wrong wing of the airport" time, then that flight time is accurate.

And you should, BTW.

(This isn't just a "I think you made a typo" post. This is an "are you sure flights are the final answer here" post.)

 

[Bluto]

Your enthusiasm is boundless. Too bad reality doesn't share it with you. Even 4-5,000 on weekends might get a potential buyer's interest. But it wouldn't be enough to convince the Dickeys management to dedicate prime dates to a AA hockey team.

Yeah 10k might be pushing it. But I do think minor league hockey could be successful there. The Brahmas were, the Cats were, the Flyers even were.
Realistically though I think maybe the best hockey turn out there would be Dallas Stars Preseason games.

 

[93LEAFS]

Saw this arena being built last year when I was in Fort-Worth and wondered what the hell it was for. Thought its primary use was going to be related to rodeos and stuff related to the Forth Worth Stock Show.

 

[JMCx4]

Saw this arena being built last year when I was in Fort-Worth and wondered what the hell it was for. Thought its primary use was going to be related to rodeos and stuff related to the Forth Worth Stock Show.

According to the Arena "About" webpage ...

Dickies Arena, which is adjacent to the Will Rogers Memorial Center campus, will be an exciting, state-of- the-art venue for events of all kinds, including concerts, sports, community events and the Fort Worth Stock Show rodeo performances.

 

[Tommy Hawk]

Nashville to Milwaukee is a 3-4 hour flight or an 8 hour drive and Des Moines to Minneapolis-St Paul is also a 3-4 hour flight or a 3 1/2 hour drive. Be accurate. Most are at the two to three hour range. The only ones that are under an hour call up range are LA-Ontario, Montréal-Laval, Toronto-Toronto, Boston-Providence, San José-San José, and Winnipeg-Manitoba. There's fewer teams in that under one hour call up time than over 3 hours. Two of those teams (SJ-SJ and Peg-MB) play in the same arena, and Winnipeg has actively been searching to move the Moose, sources: True North has ‘preliminary’ plan for AHL team in Thunder Bay, Thunder Bay Still Considering Arena - Arena Digest, and https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/thunder-bay/aging-sports-facilities-1.4327910

Once again, everything you've asserted has been refuted. The per diem, bonuses, call ups, all the other assertions have been refuted. As long as the call up time is less than 24 hours, then they're earning their per diem or bonus. Since they only earn per diem on the road, and they somehow can't make it in under 24 hours, then it's $100 down the drain, that's a token fee. Your Tallon argument was irrelevant since it had to do with sending contract offers in the offseason and dealt with arbitration, not issues with call up times. The other ones were equally irrelevant. Almost a dozen teams have call up times of longer than 3 hours. There's 6 that are an hour or under. Of those 6, 4 are huge markets in hockey crazy areas that lead the AHL in attendance. One is San José, who actively looked for a place to put their team in the ECHL-AHL shuffle and missed out. They were unfortunate enough that none of Fresno, Reno, Sacremento, or the other 5-6 markets they were looking at didn't want them. The last, Winnipeg, has been actively looking to move the team out for 3 years. Those are the facts.

You and Hutch are rivals for inaccurate statements. You have refuted nothing. Tallon situation is extremely relevant as it is about deadlines and their impacts on contracts and how the deadline can have an impact.

The 5 PM deadline is for per diems, days on the roster calculation, salary cap calculation, etc.. Gave you the section. Number of days on the roster goes towards bonuses and other terms.

And you pick an hour call up for what reason? If I make the decision at 4:59 Eastern Time for a call up, they got 3 hours to get to the game. So call it 2 to make sure. Rockford-Chicago actually has a lot of players living in Chicago and they commute to Rockford.

And a dozen teams of over 3 hours is not exactly correct. And it is still not the majority. So why do you think so many teams have times UNDER 3 hours? Because it make business sense.

Des Moines airport is 10 minutes through security. Flight time is actually about 35 minutes. MKE to Chicago scheduled time is an an hour and flight time is 17 minutes.

So the premise of the 5 PM deadline being important in the decision process is there.

I would actually prefer dealing with Hutch because he actually likes hockey.

 

[mk80]

The Brahmas were very successful when they played in the convention center downtown. The problem is that the city of Fort Worth screwed them over when it came to their lease forcing them to move to Nytex. Now NYTEX is great for beer league but not so much a minor league hockey team and it sort of killed the team.

Well it killed the minor pro Brahmas version, but the NAHL juniors version is one of the more successful teams in the league in terms of on ice product, and off ice revenue/ attendance.