Former Canucks Thread (Dan Hamhuis retires)

[Nazzlind]

so apparently gillis (and others) talked to pierre lebrun about the horvat/cory trade — LeBrun: 7 years later, the Schneider-Horvat trade looks pretty good for Canucks

anyone with a subscription wanna give a synopsis and/or share whatever new info is coming to light here? lebrun did say on the radio that gillis said (for the first time) that the trade was contingent on horvat still being available at #9, which contradicts what i think we've all repeated for years.

which was what?

 

[Dissonance Jr]

so apparently gillis (and others) talked to pierre lebrun about the horvat/cory trade — LeBrun: 7 years later, the Schneider-Horvat trade looks pretty good for Canucks

anyone with a subscription wanna give a synopsis and/or share whatever new info is coming to light here? lebrun did say on the radio that gillis said (for the first time) that the trade was contingent on horvat still being available at #9, which contradicts what i think we've all repeated for years.

Yeah, Gillis said the deal was contingent on Horvat being available. They made a concrete offer to the Oilers and were planning to take Horvat at #7 overall, but nothing came of it. Then Bo dropped to #9 and they went to New Jersey:

“Leading up to the draft, there were two teams that were very interested, Edmonton and New Jersey,” Gillis said. “We made an offer to Edmonton that if they gave up their first pick (seventh overall), their second pick and a prospect defenceman, that we would trade Cory to them. They didn’t respond. Prior to the draft, we had a deal on the table with Lou that was predicated basically on Bo Horvat being there. We were going to take Bo with the seventh pick if we had that pick (from Edmonton).’’

He also mentions that teams weren't interested in Luongo because they were scared of the recapture penalties (which was pretty obvious). Plus there's this from Eric Crawford, who talks about how the team was looking to start rebuilding in 2013:

“We were kind of moving out of that contending phase after 2011, we felt we could still be competitive but we were moving out of the contending phase,’’ Crawford, now director of pro scouting for the Canadiens, said. “Mike’s plan along with the other members of senior management was that we had to start building from underneath through the draft. That was really our first draft where we were looking to rebuild this group.’’

 

[vadim sharifijanov]

which was what?

for years people have said that the trade was agreed on whether or not horvat was still there at #9. no idea what this was based on, but the lost-both-goalies crowd used it to dunk on gillis for risking losing schneider and only ending up with nichushkin or domi or whomever else.

which is ironic because in the moment i feel like 70% of this board wanted nichushkin and probably just as many of the rest wanted domi as wanted bo.

Yeah, Gillis said the deal was contingent on Horvat being available. They made a concrete offer to the Oilers and were planning to take Horvat at #7 overall, but nothing came of it. Then Bo dropped to #9 and they went to New Jersey:


He also mentions that teams weren't interested in Luongo because they were scared of the recapture penalties (which was pretty obvious). Plus there's this from Eric Crawford, who talks about how the team was looking to start rebuilding in 2013:

 

[LuckyDay]

Do you have any idea of how many back to back road games Keenan made Lou play? And the "crazy new coach" who "alienated" him by doing the "opposite" suggests that Lou wanted to pick and choose his every start which is, like I say, selfish. I'll say it again, he's possibly the most overrated goalie in history...

He wanted to play every game. He often played too many and management were blind to the obvious consequences.

 

[LuckyDay]

Yeah, Gillis said the deal was contingent on Horvat being available. They made a concrete offer to the Oilers and were planning to take Horvat at #7 overall, but nothing came of it. Then Bo dropped to #9 and they went to New Jersey:


He also mentions that teams weren't interested in Luongo because they were scared of the recapture penalties (which was pretty obvious). Plus there's this from Eric Crawford, who talks about how the team was looking to start rebuilding in 2013:

This is confusing. Why does Edmonton insist that they had a better offer on the table for Cory and they didn't understand by the NJ trade?

Not trading to a division rival makes sense, especially when it fills their biggest hole with a future star, but the Canucks weren't doing so great either.

 

[vadim sharifijanov]

This is confusing. Why does Edmonton insist that they had a better offer on the table for Cory and they didn't understand by the NJ trade?

Not trading to a division rival makes sense, especially when it fills their biggest hole with a future star, but the Canucks weren't doing so great either.

my guess is the truth is probably somewhere in between.

that oilers trade they talk about—the nurse pick (horvat), the second (LA later traded up to get this pick and took valentin zykov, giving up a later 2nd, 3rd, and 4th), and a prospect d—probably was tabled but never formally agreed upon by either side. i'm sure edmonton was hemming and hawing about giving up three pieces, maybe trying to talk down the two that weren't the #7, while vancouver was negotiating with nj at the same time. it probably got down to the eleventh hour and they were in a shit or get off the pot moment with edmonton about to pick and edmonton probably never offered all three pieces so they had to pick their guy, at which point the trade was gone because they didn't take horvat.

from edmonton's pov, the nurse pick itself was technically a better offer than nj offered, because 7 is better than 9, as was the nurse pick and any combination of pieces 2 and/or 3, no matter who that d prospect was, which i'm guessing was never determined. so edmonton gets to still complain and save face to their fanbase, and maybe also dunk on gillis a little because why not, but of course what everyone knows is unless you get the deal you want probably a better idea to trade the all-star goalie out of the division for less.

 

[RandV]

my guess is the truth is probably somewhere in between.

that oilers trade they talk about—the nurse pick (horvat), the second (LA later traded up to get this pick and took valentin zykov, giving up a later 2nd, 3rd, and 4th), and a prospect d—probably was tabled but never formally agreed upon by either side. i'm sure edmonton was hemming and hawing about giving up three pieces, maybe trying to talk down the two that weren't the #7, while vancouver was negotiating with nj at the same time. it probably got down to the eleventh hour and they were in a shit or get off the pot moment with edmonton about to pick and edmonton probably never offered all three pieces so they had to pick their guy, at which point the trade was gone because they didn't take horvat.

from edmonton's pov, the nurse pick itself was technically a better offer than nj offered, because 7 is better than 9, as was the nurse pick and any combination of pieces 2 and/or 3, no matter who that d prospect was, which i'm guessing was never determined. so edmonton gets to still complain and save face to their fanbase, and maybe also dunk on gillis a little because why not, but of course what everyone knows is unless you get the deal you want probably a better idea to trade the all-star goalie out of the division for less.

I always assumed it was some sort of negotiating ploy. Remember with Nonis and Brad Richards deal Tampa was demanding something crazy from us like Kesler, Edler, and Schneider, but ended up settling with Dallas for Mike Smith, Jussi Jokinen, and Jeff Halpern? They could have lowered their asking price from Vancouver and gotten a better deal, but it actually almost worked if Nonis had followed orders from ownership.

Basically if you're negotiating a trade with various teams there's no need to keep your asking price fair and balanced with every team. Pinpoint a team that may be more desperate and demand more from them without backing down. Either you hit the jackpot and get it, or you fall back to another team with a more even deal you're good with. So I've always assumed that what Tampa did to us in 2008 Gillis was doing to Edmonton in 2013. Especially helps that they were a division rival.

With the new stuff Gillis is saying I believe the deal was it had never been verified before if he made the deal contingent on Horvat being available or if he just did the trade and picked who was there. So you could have people spin it either way without being able to confirm it for sure.

 

[StreetHawk]

Yeah, Gillis said the deal was contingent on Horvat being available. They made a concrete offer to the Oilers and were planning to take Horvat at #7 overall, but nothing came of it. Then Bo dropped to #9 and they went to New Jersey:


He also mentions that teams weren't interested in Luongo because they were scared of the recapture penalties (which was pretty obvious). Plus there's this from Eric Crawford, who talks about how the team was looking to start rebuilding in 2013:

For Crawford’s comments about the change in how they viewed the roster, 2013 would make sense as that was the second consecutive first round exit losing Games 8-1 over the 2 years

issue I always had with the pro Gillis and the rebuild notion was that likely was not his position in 2012 while he was negotiating his contract extension with Aquaman. Then the following year with extension in pocket the decision is to turn over the club. Right decision but I understand where the rift would be as it would seem to the owner that he said what was needed to secure his extension before revealing his true assessment of the team a year later.

 

[F A N]

for years people have said that the trade was agreed on whether or not horvat was still there at #9. no idea what this was based on, but the lost-both-goalies crowd used it to dunk on gillis for risking losing schneider and only ending up with nichushkin or domi or whomever else.

This is confusing. Why does Edmonton insist that they had a better offer on the table for Cory and they didn't understand by the NJ trade?

Not trading to a division rival makes sense, especially when it fills their biggest hole with a future star, but the Canucks weren't doing so great either.

I cancelled my Athletic subscription during the pandemic so I don't have access to the article, but facts do matter. IIRC it was WIDELY reported that Edmonton made an offer for Schneider that involved their #7 overall pick. It was speculated that they threw in a 2nd but by virtue of #7 overall pick is #9 overall pick, maybe #7 was all they offered and Edmonton would still be right in saying they made a better offer.

And here is Lebrun himself reporting about this deal at the time:

"All weekend long, the talk was that the Edmonton Oilers were zeroing in on Schneider, and indeed sources told ESPN.com that the Oilers and Canucks met at Vancouver’s hotel on Friday night to discuss the parameters of a possible deal. But the asking price was always too high for Edmonton’s liking: the Oilers’ first-round pick (the seventh overall) plus a prospect and a player to be named.

But when Edmonton did not respond by Saturday night, Gillis went to NJ:

"The deal was actually consumed between the clubs Saturday night, but Lamoriello was adamant that not a word of it leak, and the Canucks of course complied."

As the Horvat condition was never reported, this is where many of us got the idea that the trade was made without ensuring Horvat would be available at 9. So it is possible that the Canucks had a deal in place with NJ contingent on Horvat being there when Edmonton didn't respond by Saturday night.

With that said, the question is whether Gillis should have went back to Edmonton and lowered his offer a bit. #7 + 2nd round pick to trade within the division and take out virtually any risk of Horvat not being there. If not, they get one of the guys drafted in the top 6 which, quite frankly, would have been considered a much better deal at the time.

I think what this illustrates is that there are a lot of things that go on behind the scenes that we don't know about.

 

[F A N]

issue I always had with the pro Gillis and the rebuild notion was that likely was not his position in 2012 while he was negotiating his contract extension with Aquaman. Then the following year with extension in pocket the decision is to turn over the club. Right decision but I understand where the rift would be as it would seem to the owner that he said what was needed to secure his extension before revealing his true assessment of the team a year later.

It was reported that the negotiations for his extension was very contentious. Most interpreted that involved AV given another chance. Many of us didn't think much about Aquilini not approving a rebuild.

 

[StreetHawk]

It was reported that the negotiations for his extension was very contentious. Most interpreted that involved AV given another chance. Many of us didn't think much about Aquilini not approving a rebuild.

Aquaman after firing Gillis still wanted the team to compete so if Gillis was selling a rebuild in the 2012 negotiations I don’t see how Aquaman would hand him a 5 year extension. Either the owner and gm see eye to eye or the owner should find another gm. Why basically throw away $8 mill.

 

[StreetHawk]

I cancelled my Athletic subscription during the pandemic so I don't have access to the article, but facts do matter. IIRC it was WIDELY reported that Edmonton made an offer for Schneider that involved their #7 overall pick. It was speculated that they threw in a 2nd but by virtue of #7 overall pick is #9 overall pick, maybe #7 was all they offered and Edmonton would still be right in saying they made a better offer.

And here is Lebrun himself reporting about this deal at the time:

"All weekend long, the talk was that the Edmonton Oilers were zeroing in on Schneider, and indeed sources told ESPN.com that the Oilers and Canucks met at Vancouver’s hotel on Friday night to discuss the parameters of a possible deal. But the asking price was always too high for Edmonton’s liking: the Oilers’ first-round pick (the seventh overall) plus a prospect and a player to be named.

But when Edmonton did not respond by Saturday night, Gillis went to NJ:

"The deal was actually consumed between the clubs Saturday night, but Lamoriello was adamant that not a word of it leak, and the Canucks of course complied."

As the Horvat condition was never reported, this is where many of us got the idea that the trade was made without ensuring Horvat would be available at 9. So it is possible that the Canucks had a deal in place with NJ contingent on Horvat being there when Edmonton didn't respond by Saturday night.

With that said, the question is whether Gillis should have went back to Edmonton and lowered his offer a bit. #7 + 2nd round pick to trade within the division and take out virtually any risk of Horvat not being there. If not, they get one of the guys drafted in the top 6 which, quite frankly, would have been considered a much better deal at the time.

I think what this illustrates is that there are a lot of things that go on behind the scenes that we don't know about.

Unless with the second rounder, the Canucks took Bertuzzi, who went 20 spots after the Oiler's 2nd rounder in the high 30's, there isn't much that was drafted in that 2nd round in the late 30's to 50's that would change the Canuck's franchise until you get to Bertuzzi. The 3rd round had Pesce and Guentzal. But, again, we are talking about the Gillis era drafting record here, so I don't know if we should think that they would have grabbed the BPA available at that spot.

Remember, aside from Horvat, this draft was remembered for Shink, Cassels and Subban. Didn't amount to much for the Canucks.

 

[F A N]

Aquaman after firing Gillis still wanted the team to compete so if Gillis was selling a rebuild in the 2012 negotiations I don’t see how Aquaman would hand him a 5 year extension. Either the owner and gm see eye to eye or the owner should find another gm. Why basically throw away $8 mill.

Well it was one season after the Cup run. Did Aquilini have much of a choice but to extend Gillis? It's going to be terrible PR. With that said, I think Gillis clearly didn't rebuild. Even in the summer 0f 2013 the big changes he promised was pretty much just a coaching change.

 

[StreetHawk]

Well it was one season after the Cup run. Did Aquilini have much of a choice but to extend Gillis? It's going to be terrible PR. With that said, I think Gillis clearly didn't rebuild. Even in the summer 0f 2013 the big changes he promised was pretty much just a coaching change.

2012, 1 year left on his contract. But, as Burke says, lame duck GM. Issue is if Gillis did truly talk rebuild in 2012 and Aquaman still wanted to compete, then why give Gillis a 5 year extension? Would make more sense for Aquaman to push for a shorter term extension like 3 years, moving the expiration of Gillis's contract to 2016 instead of 2018.

Think the off-season in 2013 spoke volumes of the disagreement in terms of direction of the club. Bring in Torts, who is likely a win now guy, but they trade Schneider their top trade chip for a draft pick and at 18, Bo isn't coming in to help out and the window for the twins is closing. So, no real change in the roster to freshen it up to try 1 more run before the twins contracts expired in 2014.

In the end, maybe that was the compromise that should have occurred in 2013. Gillis says, no rebuild now, but I'll change up the core by moving out 2 players like a Burrows, Edler, Hamhuis, Bieksa, Kesler or whomever. If it doesn't work in 13-14, then we let the twins go and start over. But do something, rather than just change the coach.

 

[racerjoe]

I think after back to back president trophy wins people including Gillis thought they would have a bit more of a runway to land on. They didn’t and Gillis recognized this before aqua man

 

[StreetHawk]

I think after back to back president trophy wins people including Gillis thought they would have a bit more of a runway to land on. They didn’t and Gillis recognized this before aqua man

In the end that's also on Gillis because he's the GM, calling the shots on the draft (either making the decision or hiring the people who make the decisions). What was coming up in Kassian (Hodgson trade), Schroeder, Jensen, Gaunce, Sauve, Mallet, etc. down the line that was going to allow the Canuck's runway to extend? Pitt doesn't win their last 2 Cups without guys like Guentzal, Rust, and others coming up and giving some secondary help to Sid and Malkin. Also won 1 of their cups without Letang in the lineup.

I agree with the assessment that the window pretty much closed after 2013. No real secondary help was coming up the ranks at the time and the core is getting older. Were going to be decent for another 2 years maybe, but then the time to rebuild was coming.

Who knows, how that conversation between GM and Owner goes and whether the GM takes responsiblity for that runway closing faster than expected because he wasn't able to restock the cupboards or that he also misjudged what the core could still do as they aged.

Like I said, Crawford's retelling that 2013 was the year that their management group thought that a rebuild was necessary, makes sense timing wise given the moves that were made prior to then.

 

[racerjoe]

In the end that's also on Gillis because he's the GM, calling the shots on the draft (either making the decision or hiring the people who make the decisions). What was coming up in Kassian (Hodgson trade), Schroeder, Jensen, Gaunce, Sauve, Mallet, etc. down the line that was going to allow the Canuck's runway to extend? Pitt doesn't win their last 2 Cups without guys like Guentzal, Rust, and others coming up and giving some secondary help to Sid and Malkin. Also won 1 of their cups without Letang in the lineup.

I agree with the assessment that the window pretty much closed after 2013. No real secondary help was coming up the ranks at the time and the core is getting older. Were going to be decent for another 2 years maybe, but then the time to rebuild was coming.

Who knows, how that conversation between GM and Owner goes and whether the GM takes responsiblity for that runway closing faster than expected because he wasn't able to restock the cupboards or that he also misjudged what the core could still do as they aged.

Like I said, Crawford's retelling that 2013 was the year that their management group thought that a rebuild was necessary, makes sense timing wise given the moves that were made prior to then.

i generally agree, but we had just revamped the scouting department. We knew the drafting had been bad, so we knew we didn’t have that push to extend.

 

[vadim sharifijanov]

I think after back to back president trophy wins people including Gillis thought they would have a bit more of a runway to land on. They didn’t and Gillis recognized this before aqua man

this is where the tragedy of bourdon and edler not taking the next step really hurt us. that core desperately needed the 1d that people thought one of those two could be.

without that homegrown guy coming up to take over as the main guy, you’re really just trying to stretch out the primes of hamhuis, salo, bieksa, which wasn’t tenable with the sedins coming down from their peaks. with edler being good but less than imagined, it really changed the window from 2015 and beyond to 2012 being the last real shot.

 

[racerjoe]

this is where the tragedy of bourdon and edler not taking the next step really hurt us. that core desperately needed the 1d that people thought one of those two could be.

without that homegrown guy coming up to take over as the main guy, you’re really just trying to stretch out the primes of hamhuis, salo, bieksa, which wasn’t tenable with the sedins coming down from their peaks. with edler being good but less than imagined, it really changed the window from 2015 and beyond to 2012 being the last real shot.

Agreed, but any number of things could have gone differently for us to extend our window.

 

[Angry Little Elf]

Happy for Rick Bowness

 

[RussianRacket]

Happy for Rick Bowness

 

[Angry Little Elf]

I like Jim Hughson but he’s lost a step. He’s not the same when he’s not calling Canucks games.

 

[RussianRacket]

this is where the tragedy of bourdon and edler not taking the next step really hurt us. that core desperately needed the 1d that people thought one of those two could be.

and Hodgson being a baby. I imagine the transition from cup contenders (actually if Bourdon is around and lives up to the hype, Cup champions) through a short rebuild back to Cup contenders is a lot smoother with two #1 defensemen and a 1/2 centerman in Hodgson.

 

[SeawaterOnIce]

I like Jim Hughson but he’s lost a step. He’s not the same when he’s not calling Canucks games.

Agree but hardly surprising as he's turning 64 and relies on his energetic voice and catch phrases.

Really makes you appreciate Bob Cole. He was good until his early 70s but saw a dramatic drop off as well and could barely keep up with what was happening on the ice.

 

[F A N]

2012, 1 year left on his contract. But, as Burke says, lame duck GM. Issue is if Gillis did truly talk rebuild in 2012 and Aquaman still wanted to compete, then why give Gillis a 5 year extension? Would make more sense for Aquaman to push for a shorter term extension like 3 years, moving the expiration of Gillis's contract to 2016 instead of 2018.

Well Gillis is a very good negotiator. Like you said, it is pretty standard not to have your GM enter the last year of his contract. With the Canucks having made the Cup Finals a year ago, I think Gillis had quite a bit of leverage. He came in with a 5 year contract and Gillis likely felt he deserved another 5 year contract. B

Think the off-season in 2013 spoke volumes of the disagreement in terms of direction of the club. Bring in Torts, who is likely a win now guy, but they trade Schneider their top trade chip for a draft pick and at 18, Bo isn't coming in to help out and the window for the twins is closing. So, no real change in the roster to freshen it up to try 1 more run before the twins contracts expired in 2014.

I agree. I think Aquilini started getting more involved in 2013 and took away some of Gillis' autonomy. It was heavily rumored that Torts was not Gillis' choice. Gillis is all about being professional so a coach known for his outburts didn't seem to be a good fit.

In the end, maybe that was the compromise that should have occurred in 2013. Gillis says, no rebuild now, but I'll change up the core by moving out 2 players like a Burrows, Edler, Hamhuis, Bieksa, Kesler or whomever. If it doesn't work in 13-14, then we let the twins go and start over. But do something, rather than just change the coach.

I think Gillis just grew frustrated long the way and felt that the only way to be successful was to do things his way.