Forbes report on NHL team valuations - December 2023

[tucker3434]

Did we have two sales recently that were over the previous Forbes valuation? Nashville and Ottawa? Any others? Guess everybody got a nice bump out of those.

 

[StreetHawk]

Did we have two sales recently that were over the previous Forbes valuation? Nashville and Ottawa? Any others? Guess everybody got a nice bump out of those.

TB was at $1.4 billion.

In the end, a team is worth what someone will pay for it. So, don't really care if Forbes or other publications are off by $200 mill on the final sale price.

I just find it interesting on who ranks ahead of whom and compare that to the NBA, MLB, NFL and the same markets.

Red Wings still way higher than the Tigers and Pistons, who are in the 20's, while Wings are outside the top 10 and behind the Kraken is interesting. And how the Sharks are so behind the SF teams in the other leagues. How much the brand plays, vs the market they are in.

 

[awfulwaffle]

TB was at $1.4 billion.

In the end, a team is worth what someone will pay for it. So, don't really care if Forbes or other publications are off by $200 mill on the final sale price.

I just find it interesting on who ranks ahead of whom and compare that to the NBA, MLB, NFL and the same markets.

Red Wings still way higher than the Tigers and Pistons, who are in the 20's, while Wings are outside the top 10 and behind the Kraken is interesting. And how the Sharks are so behind the SF teams in the other leagues. How much the brand plays, vs the market they are in.

I mean, don't the Sharks have a horrible local tv deal and that would impact their valuation?

 

[StreetHawk]

I mean, don't the Sharks have a horrible local tv deal and that would impact their valuation?

I’m amazed that others say it was signed like 19 years ago. Canucks whom I follow are doing only like 5-7 year terms for tv from what I can remember. Amazing that SJ tied themselves that long to a tv deal. Figured most would be 6-10 years depending on the market.

Be interesting to see SJ once their deal expires. But will it catapult them up like 12-14 spots in valuation into the top 10.

 

[KevFu]

I feel like you're looking for controversy here.

Forbes does in fact say that.

But here's a list of north american metro areas by population:

List of North American metropolitan areas by population - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

The top three of Toronto, New York and LA are clearly a lot more "major". Where one could quibble is that Boston (pop 4.7 mil) is not really that much bigger than Montreal (pop 4.2 mil).

I've always contended that what makes the difference between "major markets" is TV rights, and therefore using JUST the metro area limits the point of view.

For example, no one really considers JUST City Limit. We all universally recognize that if you're from Brookline or Quincy, that's "basically Boston." (aka Metro Area).

Foxborough, is outside the Boston Metro Area, but that's the Boston market, home of the Patriots. You're still talking like 90% of the population is Boston Sports fans. That's the Boston "Combined Statistical Area" still.


By CSA, Boston is 8.3 million people.

Using CSA's, Montreal isn't just a smidge behind Boston... it's a smidge behind 14th US city Seattle, putting them 16th in our two countries.

And what makes Boston behave like a "major market" team is that their RSNs go from Providence to Maine.


(I also feel this way because I grew up SEVEN HOURS from New York City, and I'm a fan of New York teams because that's who I got on TV). Buffalo, Toronto, Cleveland, Pittsburgh, Philadelphia and Baltimore are CLOSER DRIVES to me than the New York Mets or New York Islanders. But SportsChannel New York made me fans of the Mets/Islanders.)

 

[JianYang]

I mean, it's not wrong. Montreal is not a small place, but it's not a mega city either like new York or LA.

It hasn't even been the largest Canadian city since the 70s, I believe.

It's accurate to say that the habs fanbase is far reaching but the 'home' market is not a major one.

 

[Golden_Jet]

I mean, it's not wrong. Montreal is not a small place, but it's not a mega city either like new York or LA.

It hasn't even been the largest Canadian city since the 70s, I believe.

Montreal and Ottawa fans are lucky, they agreed to share their TV markets, so fans get regional games from both cities. Win win.

Ottawa tried same thing with leafs, but leafs weren’t interested.

 

[ps241]

Historically Spotrac was publishing the same identical numbers as Forbes, implying both outfits were using the same original author(s). Not sure if that's still the case as their numbers seem to be slightly different this year. Could still be the same author(s), but number snapshots taken at different points in time.

The level of accuracy or validity of these speculated reports is interesting to me. Friedman on 32 thoughts recently was discussing the Sportico article and rankings and Elliott was saying the writer of the article is plugged in and very respected, but he also said that one (or more than one) NHL executive was saying the Coyotes stated operating income was total bunk (not a direct quote but the spirit of his words). If I was to rate my personal confidence index I think the team valuations is a bit easier to get a handle on with the recent sale of the Sens adding to the information stack. Once we move to team by team revenue I get a little more suspect (although a connected person might do fine here on some teams). The per team operating income is the area I have the least confidence in.

That being said I am comfortable living in a semi fictional world on this.

 

[rojac]

I've always contended that what makes the difference between "major markets" is TV rights, and therefore using JUST the metro area limits the point of view.

For example, no one really considers JUST City Limit. We all universally recognize that if you're from Brookline or Quincy, that's "basically Boston." (aka Metro Area).

Foxborough, is outside the Boston Metro Area, but that's the Boston market, home of the Patriots. You're still talking like 90% of the population is Boston Sports fans. That's the Boston "Combined Statistical Area" still.


By CSA, Boston is 8.3 million people.

Using CSA's, Montreal isn't just a smidge behind Boston... it's a smidge behind 14th US city Seattle, putting them 16th in our two countries.

And what makes Boston behave like a "major market" team is that their RSNs go from Providence to Maine.


(I also feel this way because I grew up SEVEN HOURS from New York City, and I'm a fan of New York teams because that's who I got on TV). Buffalo, Toronto, Cleveland, Pittsburgh, Philadelphia and Baltimore are CLOSER DRIVES to me than the New York Mets or New York Islanders. But SportsChannel New York made me fans of the Mets/Islanders.)

And Montreal's regional TV market includes Eastern Ontario plus all of Quebec, Newfoundland & Labrador, New Brunswick, Nova Scotia, and Prince Edward Island. That's roughly 13 million people.

 

[Fatass]

And Montreal's regional TV market includes Eastern Ontario plus all of Quebec, Newfoundland & Labrador, New Brunswick, Nova Scotia, and Prince Edward Island. That's roughly 13 million people.

This and in Canada the percentage of people who are hockey fans is way higher than in the States.

 

[Golden_Jet]

And Montreal's regional TV market includes Eastern Ontario plus all of Quebec, Newfoundland & Labrador, New Brunswick, Nova Scotia, and Prince Edward Island. That's roughly 13 million people.

That region is also shared with the Senators.

 

[rojac]

That region is also shared with the Senators.

Yes, but Ottawa wasn't relevant to the due comparison of the Montreal and Boston markets so I saw no need to mention them.

 

[Golden_Jet]

Yes, but Ottawa wasn't relevant to the due comparison of the Montreal and Boston markets so I saw no need to mention them.

Yep, just providing context to the regional deal.

 

[KevFu]

And Montreal's regional TV market includes Eastern Ontario plus all of Quebec, Newfoundland & Labrador, New Brunswick, Nova Scotia, and Prince Edward Island. That's roughly 13 million people.

I will totally admit that I'm far less knowledgeable about estimating Montreal's TV market simply because I gleaned most of this from being a baseball fan. During the revolution of baseball stats nerds posting a crazy amount of data on everything in the early 2000s... the Expos moved. So every MLB TV map shows how the US divided and just all of Canada is Blue Jays.


Finance wise, I'd consider the Habs to be one of the cornerstone franchises and heavy-hitters. I wasn't trying to imply that Montreal is like "the 16th richest/strongest NHL team." The fact that they're like 16th in population but like definitely Top 6 or 8 in financial strength is a combo of why just using metro areas isn't enough, as well as "fans sports dollars competition among multiple sports teams."