News Article: Forbes NHL Valuations - Sens ranked 26th at $445 mil

[Golden_Jet]

They are know to be money pits after 30 years, the cost of a new roof, new heating systems, refrigeration units, sprinkler systems,electrical wiring , any repairs and anything attached have to be brought up to new code. The cost is crazy so they decide value wise to go new.

That’s the reason every year there is always 5-10 million in repairs, you don’t do everything in one year, each year you tackle something new, for the long term. All teams upgrade arenas each year. Arena is probably half way thru at best it’s lifespan.

 

[coladin]

That Duchene trade didn't add much more salary, if any, considering the money we sent out in that trade. And a big reason that trade was made was because Melnyk didn't want to pay Turris, which turned out to be a good decision but not a hockey decision (which is the problem).

The Sens are not spending 75 million. That's cap. We were trying to shed salary even when we were at the cap floor.

They did not think Turris was worth what he wanted for what he brings. Sounds like a hockey decision to me. The lengths people go to discredit the organization is pathetic

 

[Gil Gunderson]

They did not think Turris was worth what he wanted for what he brings. Sounds like a hockey decision to me. The lengths people go to discredit the organization is pathetic

That's fine, but the owner shouldn't be the one who decides that in a well-run organization.

How often do we hear players say they don't think the owner wanted them after getting traded?

 

[coladin]

That's fine, but the owner shouldn't be the one who decides that in a well-run organization.

How often do we hear players say they don't think the owner wanted them after getting traded?

Players like Kyle Turris? Gee, I don’t know, but he burns bridges wherever he goes it seems.

Let’s face it, there are easier things to get on the organization’s case about than Turris

 

[Masked]

"How about" before tax and after tax lol? I'll give you the benefit of the doubt that you just can't read french.

I gave you the entire data set and summarized the most important part.

And really? You think there's significantly more Sens fans than Habs+Leafs fans in the Ottawa area? Not talking about just the Ottawa city here. Just the Gatineau area, I think there's significantly more Habs fans there but anyway, I'd be very surprised. Or maybe there's a ton more Sens fans who prefer keeping it low profile???

I've posted surveys that have been conducted previously showing that the Senators are overwhelming the most popular team in Ottawa. Unless you go to Gatineau or a federal government office, you don't see many Hab fans. Leaf fans are easy to spot because they tend to be obnoxious about it. There's not that many of them.

Finally, "Ottawa does not need a new arena downtown"? I mean... it's basically free to go to games and still can't fill the arena, not even close actually. But yes you're right, everything is totally fine in Ottawa! What am I even saying?

Changing the ownership will do more for attendance than changing the arena.

Quebec was 800 000 in 2016 but it doesn't matter, like I said it's a market that would be like Winnipeg where they would get constant and heavy fan support, no matter how good the team is. People from everywhere in the province would go see games there (even non fans) and buy food/merchandise, watch games on TV, etc. It's very easy to drive and access Quebec City (central in the province) unless there's a big snowstorm. Personally, I would go far more often than in Ottawa, or even Bell Center, and I am 15 minutes away from the BC lol. The thing is even Habs fans would go see games in Quebec city, even if the Habs were not playing.

Nice bit of fiction. Quebec City was far from selling out when they had an NHL team and that was in a tiny rink.

Ever heard of Les Remparts de Quebec? In 2015-16 they had an assistance average of 13 835 average per game. This is just a QMJHL junior team... This is comfortably more than Ottawa in the NHL this year... Let that sink in. Sure they don't get that much support every year (2nd link) but it gives you an idea how hockey craved QC province people are as of right now, there are just the Habs and it's far, expensive and complicated to go see a game.

UN RECORD D’ASSISTANCE INÉGALÉ POUR LES REMPARTS – Remparts de Québec
Quebec Remparts [QMJHL, 1997-2020] yearly attendance at hockeydb.com

That's one heck of an outlier season for the Ramparts. But regardless you can't compare minor leagues to big leagues. The 67's once held the CHL record for attendance - both for season and single game.

But if you're counting single seasons. The Senators were third in NHL attendance in 2007-8. But, yeah, Ottawa is a lousy market.

Ottawa CMA was 1,323,783 in 2016 and the fact that they can't come close to fill their arena through good and bad times is actually very telling of the size of the fanbase. Everybody knows it's a micro fanbase compared to Habs/Leafs for example. It's not the size of the population, it's the size of the people who would support your team financially, aka the fanbase. The Ottawa Senators are just not a popular team, they are almost in the middle of Montreal, Toronto and New York, the 3 biggest hockey markets (and very big markets in general). Let's be real, it's a struggling market and don't see it change anytime soon because of factors like that. Seriously I didn't really want to engage in a long discussion and I think you missed the point where I said "I have no idea what will happen and I'm not giving my opinion on that"

The Senators have filled the rink in good times. The CTC is also one of the biggest rinks in the league. It's not a struggling market. It's market with a struggling ownership.

So not sure why you are quoting me and saying you don't see a canadian team moving to a worse market? I have not talked about that at all. My only opinion was that I would like to see a NHL team in both cities.

Very disingenuous of you. If you're just talking about Quebec City having an NHL team, why are you doing that in the Ottawa Senators forum? Go do it in the Business of Hockey or NHL Talk forums.

 

[The Lewler]

From some light reading I can’t say I’m thrilled with how tight Desmarais (Andre in particular) is with the Chinese govt .

I know most fans won’t care about that as it’s viewed as just business and will take anyone who isn’t Melnyk with deeper pockets , but the older I get the more I find pesky ethical questions clouding my previously simplistic views.

 

[Gil Gunderson]

From some light reading I can’t say I’m thrilled with how tight Desmarais (Andre in particular) is with the Chinese govt .

I know most fans won’t care about that as it’s viewed as just business and will take anyone who isn’t Melnyk with deeper pockets , but the older I get the more I find pesky ethical questions clouding my previously simplistic views.

Yup. I’d be lying if I said I hadn’t thought about the ethics of the next owner.

Billionaires are pretty terrible people in general.

 

[GCK]

From some light reading I can’t say I’m thrilled with how tight Desmarais (Andre in particular) is with the Chinese govt .

I know most fans won’t care about that as it’s viewed as just business and will take anyone who isn’t Melnyk with deeper pockets , but the older I get the more I find pesky ethical questions clouding my previously simplistic views.

If you are looking for an ethical multi-billionaire well, I’ll give you some time to think.

 

[SENATOR]

If you are looking for an ethical multi-billionaire well, I’ll give you some time to think.

It is a shame that NHL ignores its own roots of the NHL birthplace and does not support Senators brand as it should be. NHA NHL Birthplace Museum Renfrew . It is also a shame ,that a transit corridor from Québec city to Niagara Falls through Ottawa, does not have a high speed train. Chinese would build it in three years.

 

[SENATOR]

The birth place of Les Canadiens is also in Renfrew Ontario, as the Blue shorts, future Toronto Maple Leafs. Only Ottawa Sens were born in Ottawa.

 

[supsens]

That Duchene trade didn't add much more salary, if any, considering the money we sent out in that trade. And a big reason that trade was made was because Melnyk didn't want to pay Turris, which turned out to be a good decision but not a hockey decision (which is the problem).

The Sens are not spending 75 million. That's cap. We were trying to shed salary even when we were at the cap floor.

Do you honestly think they are sending out Turris and a first rounder with no intention of resigning him? It’s kind of obvious it was a last ditch effort to turn into a good team again and justify being able to pay everyone
If you don’t think Melnyk wants a winning team with a full barn I would say you are mistaken.
Their is no way to run a larger payroll without the extra playoff revenue,lots of fans and extra advertising revenue.
One year on one year off and a bored fan base results in losing too much money

 

[supsens]

That’s the reason every year there is always 5-10 million in repairs, you don’t do everything in one year, each year you tackle something new, for the long term. All teams upgrade arenas each year. Arena is probably half way thru at best it’s lifespan.

The big things start costing a lot more than 5-10 million that’s just general upkeep that isn’t overhaul and replacement, a new roof is going to be expensive. Things become outdated sure they can drag it on but then your spending more on repairs than the building is worth. I have no idea why everyone is so determined these buildings are used forever.
And let’s just say you find a way to keep it going, this isn’t like most arena’s where the city going to help cover repair costs nor are the going to come haul it away and clean up the land after your done,they are also not going to build you a new one. So all that sunken cost for a pile of rubble in the end is a hard sell.

 

[Xspyrit]

I gave you the entire data set and summarized the most important part.

OK? But did you come to me and said "How about actual Statistics" when I was quoting an article with revenues before tax and your source had revenues after tax? You like apples or oranges?

I've posted surveys that have been conducted previously showing that the Senators are overwhelming the most popular team in Ottawa. Unless you go to Gatineau or a federal government office, you don't see many Hab fans. Leaf fans are easy to spot because they tend to be obnoxious about it. There's not that many of them.

Ok good but I was not talking about Ottawa (God I hope it is by far the most popular team in the city lol)... but more the surroundings, like Gatineau for example, a sea of Habs fans. I'd bet that Ontario cities 30-45 mins away from Ottawa are mainly Leafs fans, probably those closer too

Changing the ownership will do more for attendance than changing the arena.

Yes because Melnyk is special but seriously, if you want any long-term viability you will need an arena much closer to downtown where people can "live" and not have to be stuck 45 mins to get out of the parking, pretty much ruins the experience. You need to raise your ticket prices (significantly), so you will need to be able to justify it with some enthusiasm around the team and arena (in real estate, location is everything). The arena out there in Kanata doesn't justify it. I have been plenty of times and It's "ok" but seriously, have you? Heck, go see an Alouettes game for example and you'll see the difference in terms of location and game experience.

Nice bit of fiction. Quebec City was far from selling out when they had an NHL team and that was in a tiny rink.

You realize the Nordiques left Quebec in 1995? Yeah, I think our conversation will stop soon lol

That's one heck of an outlier season for the Ramparts. But regardless you can't compare minor leagues to big leagues. The 67's once held the CHL record for attendance - both for season and single game.

But if you're counting single seasons. The Senators were third in NHL attendance in 2007-8. But, yeah, Ottawa is a lousy market.

Yes but Remparts had consistent fan support in other seasons too and it's just a junior team. Don't want to believe me when I say that the Quebec province (because again, not talking about just Quebec city there) is a good market for hockey? Yeah I won't be forcing, do as you want

And if you want to believe Ottawa with his current arena situation, owner, team, marketing, etc is a great market, go ahead, whatever makes you feel good at night lol

The Senators have filled the rink in good times. The CTC is also one of the biggest rinks in the league. It's not a struggling market. It's market with a struggling ownership.

Yeah it's such a good market that it's why so many people are ready to overpay to get it from the hands of a struggling owner.

So everybody outside of Ottawa talk about Ottawa as a small market but not the great Tranquilo Naito! And I am disingenuous...

Very disingenuous of you. If you're just talking about Quebec City having an NHL team, why are you doing that in the Ottawa Senators forum? Go do it in the Business of Hockey or NHL Talk forums.

Dude, was I discussing with you? It's not you that is going tell me what I can or not talk. Who the heck are you lol? Not my fault if it hurts your feelings

I have started quoting somebody else who was talking about QUEBEC and said about the move to QC "I have no idea what will happen and I'm not giving my opinion on that" so please mind your own business

 

[Masked]

OK? But did you come to me and said "How about actual Statistics" when I was quoting an article with revenues before tax and your source had revenues after tax? You like apples or oranges?

I quoted the information first hand that included the entire data set, not some second hand article, Did you even click on the link I provided?

Ok good but I was not talking about Ottawa (God I hope it is by far the most popular team in the city lol)... but more the surroundings, like Gatineau for example, a sea of Habs fans. I'd bet that Ontario cities 30-45 mins away from Ottawa are mainly Leafs fans, probably those closer too

You'd be wrong there too.

Yes because Melnyk is special but seriously, if you want any long-term viability you will need an arena much closer to downtown where people can "live" and not have to be stuck 45 mins to get out of the parking, pretty much ruins the experience. You need to raise your ticket prices (significantly), so you will need to be able to justify it with some enthusiasm around the team and arena (in real estate, location is everything). The arena out there in Kanata doesn't justify it. I have been plenty of times and It's "ok" but seriously, have you? Heck, go see an Alouettes game for example and you'll see the difference in terms of location and game experience.

It is easier to fix the parking issues at CTC than building a new rink. I've been far more games at the CTC than you've been and when I've gone to sold out games I've usually been able to quickly get out of the parking lot.

You realize the Nordiques left Quebec in 1995? Yeah, I think our conversation will stop soon lol

You realize that it's the only evidence of what NHL attendance in Quebec City will be like?

Yes but Remparts had consistent fan support in other seasons too and it's just a junior team. Don't want to believe me when I say that the Quebec province (because again, not talking about just Quebec city there) is a good market for hockey? Yeah I won't be forcing, do as you want

So has the 67's. And that's at times with an NHL team.

And if you want to believe Ottawa with his current arena situation, owner, team, marketing, etc is a great market, go ahead, whatever makes you feel good at night lol

I've already said ownership was crap. It was two paragraphs above what you quoted. Try to keep up here please.

Yeah it's such a good market that it's why so many people are ready to overpay to get it from the hands of a struggling owner.

Yes, because rich people love to overpay for things when it's clear Melnyk is going to be out sooner or later. If Quebec City is such a great market why didn't it bid on an expansion franchise?

So everybody outside of Ottawa talk about Ottawa as a small market but not the great Tranquilo Naito! And I am disingenuous...

When did I ever say Ottawa wasn't a small market? Please improve your reading comprehension skills so that I don't have to correct your false statements.

Dude, was I discussing with you? It's not you that is going tell me what I can or not talk. Who the heck are you lol? Not my fault if it hurts your feelings

I have started quoting somebody else who was talking about QUEBEC and said about the move to QC "I have no idea what will happen and I'm not giving my opinion on that" so please mind your own business

Mind my business on a discussion forum? Maybe get a clue on what this place is for.

 

[Xspyrit]

I quoted the information first hand that included the entire data set, not some second hand article, Did you even click on the link I provided?

Wait, who cares about the "entire data set"? My "2nd hand article" was already giving us a good idea that the familial income in Ottawa was slightly better than in the Quebec area. The source was Statistiques Canada so reliable enough.

So what does your "entire data set" reveals more? Does it add anything to what was said? You realize you were the one who suddenly quoted me saying "How about actual Statistics Canada data?"; even though I was already saying the same thing?

You'd be wrong there too.

Like I already said, I would hope so! But it's not the sentiment I have from talking with people from Ontario or simply reading on the internet. Even some people here (Sens fans) talked about it before.

Just an example (and of course there's s a sample size), this survey just after the ECF run in 2017 :

Infographic: Canada's favourite NHL team by region, generation, sex - Sportsnet.ca

And you see later down in that article, in Ontario it's 60% Leafs, 11% Habs and 7% Sens

So you're basically saying to everyone here that can read you, that there is more Sens fans in Cornwall, for example, than Habs + Leafs fans? Because I was saying the opposite and you said "I'd be wrong there too"

I'd be curious to hear people about that. lol

Note : I remember in 2008-09 (so not long after the Cup Finals), I went on a road trip with 2 friends who are not much of hockey fans and brought them to the CTC. In the middle of the game, they were asking/laughing "why is the other team (it was the Lightning) getting more cheers than the Sens?"

Also, not 100% related, but if you're too sensible, don't read that :

You hate Sens fans too? Here’s why

It is easier to fix the parking issues at CTC than building a new rink. I've been far more games at the CTC than you've been and when I've gone to sold out games I've usually been able to quickly get out of the parking lot.

I'm from Europe and went to a few European stadiums, so you have to understand that the CTC game experience, location, logistic, marketing, vibe, etc doesn't impress me much. But you seem to think it's ideal so all is well! I'm sure the CTC is going to be great in 10-15 years!

You realize that it's the only evidence of what NHL attendance in Quebec City will be like

25 years ago? Evidence? lol I don't know if Ottawa is the same as it was back then but let me tell you that Montreal and Quebec have evolved a lot since. Also, by the way, there's 2 more million people in GTA now

They haven't build an arena in Quebec just for fun, studies were made, the QC region (plus all the whole Province like I said several times already) would easily support a team there. No way the QC province would let Quebec City lose their team again. They just can't get a franchise there as the NHL has bigger markets to prioritize and they don't really want to move teams (heck just look at Arizona, they still have a team).

I've already said ownership was crap. It was two paragraphs above what you quoted. Try to keep up here please.

Sorry, you seem so smart that it's very hard to keep up indeed

Ok so you're saying ownership is the only problem and I was saying there's more problems than that? I didn't know that not agreeing with you (or just partially) meant not being able to "keep up"

Yes, because rich people love to overpay for things when it's clear Melnyk is going to be out sooner or later. If Quebec City is such a great market why didn't it bid on an expansion franchise?

But that's it, it's harder for smaller markets and believe it or not, Ottawa is one of them. It's not as simple as the "population" and "the annual family income". It's your potential customer base who will spend money on your product vs the competition. There's a LIMITATION for this business and potential buyers know that... I never said Quebec would be a "great" market, I said it would be similar to Winnipeg

An arena downtown Ottawa could really change the outcome but maybe you're right, that business is better in downtown Kanata!

Please improve your reading comprehension skills so that I don't have to correct your false statements.
Mind my business on a discussion forum? Maybe get a clue on what this place is for

lol nothing is more ironic than someone throwing insults when he's not even "getting it"

In my first post on this subject (moving Ottawa to Quebec), I said :

"I have no idea what will happen and I'm not giving my opinion on that"

I was more interested in giving insight about the Quebec market. Then the same poster I was already discussing with replies and then I tell him :

"So not sure why you are quoting me and saying you don't see a canadian team moving to a worse market? I have not talked about that at all. My only opinion was that I would like to see a NHL team in both cities."

So I already said twice that I was not talking about that move and then you accuse me of being "disingenuous"? Here's what you said to that :

Very disingenuous of you. If you're just talking about Quebec City having an NHL team, why are you doing that in the Ottawa Senators forum? Go do it in the Business of Hockey or NHL Talk forums.

Are you for real? I was already talking about the Quebec/Montreal markets with other people earlier in this thread so yes I can tell you to mind your own business. Thank you and have a nice day