For Hockey, a Landscape That Now Includes Palm Trees

Discussion in 'Fugu's Business of Hockey Forum' started by ebox99, Feb 18, 2011.

  1. ebox99

    ebox99 Registered User

    Joined:
    May 8, 2009
    Messages:
    271
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    0
    Maybe Bettman is right about hockey in the south....it needs time to grow...



    From NY Times:

    http://www.nytimes.com/2011/02/18/sports/hockey/18hockey.html?ref=hockey

     
  2. Fugu

    Fugu Guest

    Interesting the Minnesota surpassed Michigan during the time period cited, which had the highest rate in the country in 1998-99. I always thought Mass and MN might be ahead in total numbers. I wonder what the net change in population for Michigan during the same period is, as that's probably one factor. Economic issues may be another one.
     
  3. tarheelhockey

    tarheelhockey Highest Boss

    Joined:
    Feb 12, 2010
    Messages:
    57,961
    Likes Received:
    34,000
    Trophy Points:
    190
    Location:
    The Triangle
    I guarantee that the population change in Michigan has a lot to do with the rate of registration in the south. Directly connected.
     
  4. Fugu

    Fugu Guest

    You think a lot of them are transplants?
     
  5. Alan Jackson

    Alan Jackson Registered User

    Joined:
    Nov 3, 2005
    Messages:
    5,184
    Likes Received:
    32
    Trophy Points:
    101
    Location:
    Langley, BC
    Wake me when it translates to people attending NHL games, or heck, even flipping on the TV to watch hockey.

    Youth soccer is massively popular, too. How has that translated to the success of soccer as a spectator sport in the States?
     
  6. Fugu

    Fugu Guest

    Well, it's not exactly a negative sign that registrations are increasing, and that hockey is the second fastest growing sport. If registrations were dropping all over the place, would that be a concern?
     
  7. MoreOrr

    MoreOrr B4

    Joined:
    Jun 20, 2006
    Messages:
    24,035
    Likes Received:
    42
    Trophy Points:
    131
    Location:
    Mexico
    It's just the beginning, and especially in soccer's case you just need to give it time. As for hockey, I agree... I'll wait to see the real revenues coming in for the NHL in its southernmost cities.
     
  8. throatguzzler

    throatguzzler Registered User

    Joined:
    May 18, 2010
    Messages:
    107
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    0
    Location:
    Philly'ish
    I think it's simply people whom have relocated from NY, MI, WI, MN, MA etc to the southern states and simply registered there. There's not significant increase accross the board to draw conclusions that this sport's truly growing at the pace the article claims it is. Like if I were to see a 200% increase in a state like Oregon, then I'd be surprised. Since people aren't really relocating there from the NE and midwest states in mass drones per say.

    I bet if you were to go to a Phoenix game and poll the audience, 90% of them would be from a Northern state.
     
    Last edited: Feb 18, 2011
  9. Alan Jackson

    Alan Jackson Registered User

    Joined:
    Nov 3, 2005
    Messages:
    5,184
    Likes Received:
    32
    Trophy Points:
    101
    Location:
    Langley, BC
    I think it's fantastic that more kids are playing hockey in areas where they haven't before. Until it translates to more NHL fans, though, I don't know that the NHL's "Sunbelt Experiment", or whatever else you may wish to call it, can be considered a success as far as the League is concerned.

    I think I've seen some numbers that show hockey registration is falling in Canada, but the NHL here is more popular than it's ever been.

    All that said, if more kids are playing and enjoying hockey, that's great.
     
  10. Fugu

    Fugu Guest


    I think there are a couple themes here, which may or may not be connected. More people are playing hockey. That's good. Is that the result of the migrations from the northern states, or due to NHL teams being place in the locale, and then to what extent? Causation and correlation may be a bit more difficult to link to several variables in play.
     
  11. MAROONSRoad

    MAROONSRoad f/k/a Ghost

    Joined:
    Feb 24, 2007
    Messages:
    4,067
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    0
    Location:
    Maroons Rd.
    Somethings sure grow fast when they start from nothing. For example, 2 people is a 100% increase over 1. :sarcasm:

    GHOST
     
  12. Brodie

    Brodie Marxist-Harbaughist

    Joined:
    Mar 19, 2009
    Messages:
    15,098
    Likes Received:
    36
    Trophy Points:
    156
    Location:
    Michigan
    I think loss of income is just as responsible for the losses in Michigan as population loss... we're still the eighth largest state and (I believe) still have 10 million people, so there's more to it than just Michiganders moving south or west.

    I also find it interesting that Michigan and New York have seen surges in the number of NHL players produced while actually losing youth registrations.
     
  13. Dado

    Dado Guest

    For comparison, Florida also has over 100,000 registered soccer players.

    So I guess after another 50 years of youth player growth, the NHL down there can look forward to MLS level of support.
     
  14. throatguzzler

    throatguzzler Registered User

    Joined:
    May 18, 2010
    Messages:
    107
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    0
    Location:
    Philly'ish
    Obviously it's relative but it had been mentioned some states were at 5-10 thousand ten years ago and had since doubled.
     
  15. tarheelhockey

    tarheelhockey Highest Boss

    Joined:
    Feb 12, 2010
    Messages:
    57,961
    Likes Received:
    34,000
    Trophy Points:
    190
    Location:
    The Triangle
    I know for sure that they are, based on hanging around the local rinks. Most of the actual players are transplants, or kids whose parents are transplants.

    Oddly enough, that doesn't really translate to the NHL fanbase. Of course there are a lot of transplants at Canes games, but there are a lot of locals too. Many many many more locals watch hockey than play it, especially adults.

    To me these numbers are encouraging in and of themselves, but what they really point to is a big boost of hockey interest ahead within a generation. With an NHL team in town, and a lot of hockey-playing adults moving here, I expect to see the kids who are currently <10 growing up with hockey as a significant part of the sports scene. As opposed to those who were that age a decade ago, when people were still very conscious of its newness.
     
  16. Webersmashpuck

    Webersmashpuck Registered User

    Joined:
    Mar 17, 2009
    Messages:
    1,132
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    0
    Location:
    Spring Hill
    One minor detail, the Kentucky border is only 30 minutes away from Nashville so it is nearby to a team and I would find it more likely in someone in Bowling Green, KY is a Predators fan over someone in Knoxville.


    As for the personal experience, I work around a rink here in Tennessee and it is packed every day of the week. There needs to be several more sheets of ice here to satisfy the demand right now.
     
  17. Kritter471

    Kritter471 Registered User

    Joined:
    Feb 17, 2005
    Messages:
    7,714
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    0
    Occupation:
    Staff Writer
    Location:
    Dallas
    From a Dallas perspective, the first group of kids who grew up playing (in the youth system from, say 93-00) were the kids of transplants or direct transplants themselves with a smaller group of long-time Texans slowly picking up the sport.

    The past 10 years or so it's become a fairly popular sport among the upper-middle-class family who's been in Dallas forever. The Stars (and the rinks) being established institutions has certainly helped that.

    But really, does it matter if the first group is transplants or natives, particularly when we're talking youth sports? Transplants are just as much a part of the local sports culture as natives, and many will continue to live in that metro area for the rest of their lives (and their kids will consider that area their hometown - I know my hometown is somewhere I didn't move until I was 9 or so).
     
  18. tarheelhockey

    tarheelhockey Highest Boss

    Joined:
    Feb 12, 2010
    Messages:
    57,961
    Likes Received:
    34,000
    Trophy Points:
    190
    Location:
    The Triangle
    No, in the first group it doesn't matter so much. I think the important thing is what happens in the second and third generations.
     
  19. Brodie

    Brodie Marxist-Harbaughist

    Joined:
    Mar 19, 2009
    Messages:
    15,098
    Likes Received:
    36
    Trophy Points:
    156
    Location:
    Michigan
    MLS is not the equivalent of the NHL in this scenario. You cannot deny the massive growth in the popularity of European, South American and international soccer over the past 20 years concurrently with the growth of youth soccer.
     
  20. ebox99

    ebox99 Registered User

    Joined:
    May 8, 2009
    Messages:
    271
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    0
    I think people are missing the point.

    Transplant or not the number of total registered players have increased:

    "Participation throughout the United States has increased from 195,000 male and female players of all ages registered with USA Hockey in 1990-91 to 475,000 in 2009-10. Earlier this year, it registered its 100,000th player at the 8-and-younger level."

    Also, there seems to be more exposure/coverage of hockey:

    http://today.msnbc.msn.com/id/26184891/#41663924

    People are so critical of the Southern teams but there was a time when people thought that most the Canadian wouldn't survive. You can count on one hand how many teams have not at one point or another been in trouble. If the naysayers were running the league we'd have 5 teams...
     
  21. cbcwpg

    cbcwpg Registered User

    Joined:
    May 18, 2010
    Messages:
    12,065
    Likes Received:
    2,005
    Trophy Points:
    156
    Location:
    Between the Pipes
    Not to get off topic, but to respond to you.

    I agree with this because generations of fans is how you build a solid base, but here is what I see the issue being. Money / costs.

    This is all JMO.

    There is so much money in professional sports today ( on both the amount you can make, but more importantly the costs to run the teams ) that a lot of owners are not going to hang around for generations of fans to grow up and buy tickets.

    If there was a way to go back in time to say 1960 and put a team with a good owner in a debate-able market ( for lack of a better term ), because that team would have gone through 40 years of relatively stable costs, that market today would be one of those stable markets we all talk about. With costs not rising all that much, this owner could have hung in for the long hall.

    But today, with costs being so astronomically higher even with a cap, the risk of an owner losing money is so much higher and IMO owners today want a return sooner, and won't wait for 40 years to get it.

    But back to the reason for the thread. It will be debated forever if having more kids playing hockey relates to more ticket buyers in the NHL.
     
    Last edited: Feb 18, 2011
  22. throatguzzler

    throatguzzler Registered User

    Joined:
    May 18, 2010
    Messages:
    107
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    0
    Location:
    Philly'ish
    So has the country's population.
     
  23. objectiveposter

    objectiveposter Registered User

    Joined:
    Jan 29, 2011
    Messages:
    1,215
    Likes Received:
    431
    Trophy Points:
    94
    keep in mind this article mentions growth in percentages, not absolute numbers...its kinda like tv ratings..they will say ratings are up 50%..but what they wont mention is that the actual increase was 5000 viewers to 7500.
     
  24. bacon25

    bacon25 Unenthusiastic User

    Joined:
    Nov 29, 2010
    Messages:
    3,389
    Likes Received:
    14
    Trophy Points:
    66
    Location:
    Group Study Room F
    I believe with Canadian teams, the problems stem from having a low dollar, not from having enough participation and support. This thread will eventually turn into a pissing match between Americans and Canadians so I want to propose a solution, everyone instead of bashing each other just write a letter to Bettman letting him know that if hockey is to grow than the NHL needs to expand. He can keep his Southern teams and add a few more Canadian teams and everyone is happy. Except for those who will then feel the NHL is too watered down with talent and then the circle continues.
     
  25. Kritter471

    Kritter471 Registered User

    Joined:
    Feb 17, 2005
    Messages:
    7,714
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    0
    Occupation:
    Staff Writer
    Location:
    Dallas
    The US had 252 million people in 1991 and approximately now 310 million. So it grew by about 60 million people, or about 23 percent.

    195,000 registered hockey players in 1991 to 475,000 in 2010 is a growth of 144 percent (280,000 players).

    The overall population growth explains some but not nearly all of the increase in registration.
     

Share This Page

monitoring_string = "358c248ada348a047a4b9bb27a146148"