Confirmed with Link: Flyers Sign Christian Folin to one-year contract, $800K

[BritainStix]

Saying he is a 3rd pair defenseman is a cop out for his defenders. That's not how he was used. He was mostly a 2nd pair defenseman but on certain nights he was used as a top pair defenseman. Out of his 71 career games, Robert Hagg only has 6 games in which he registered 15 minutes or less of ice time and one of those games he got injured. And this was a player that didn't play on the PP and got removed from the PK due to ineffectiveness and still averaged over 18 minutes a night! That's not a 3rd pair defenseman.

If we are talking about true talent level? Well I would argue he's closer to AHL caliber than he is to NHL 3rd pair caliber.

I don't care if he's cheap. He was not good and he is almost certainly going to be overpaid on his next contract(s).

So people are wrong when they call him a third pairing defenseman because he was overused and pushed into the wrong role by a clueless coach.

Ahh gotcha...........

 

[David St Hubbins]

Hagg is a 6/7. Hakstol is an idiot for playing him like a 3/4. He generates comments like an All Star.

Bottom line, he is a decent but flawed player. And he is eminently replaceable.

 

[deadhead]

So people are wrong when they call him a third pairing defenseman because he was overused and pushed into the wrong role by a clueless coach.

Ahh gotcha...........

Well, given the alternative was Gudas without his mojo, not sure if the coach was that clueless.
Sanheim was competing more with Manning for PT, and Manning was the better player last year until the end of the season when he reverted to "zombie Manning."
When Chicago and Nashville compete for your services, either Lavi is an idiot or the people on this board are the clueless ones.

Reality was we had a 1st pair and 5 3rd pair defensemen last year.
Hopefully Gudas regains his mojo and Sanheim comes to camp stronger and smarter and give us a real 2nd pair.

 

[FLYguy3911]

It’s not a cop out to evaluate Hagg for what he is & say he got overused on a thin D corps.

But what is he? By being overused he got to play ~350 minutes with arguably the best 1st line in the league.

Do you know what Hagg was with the top line? +11 thanks to a 15% on ice shooting% and a 108 PDO!

Do you know what Hagg was with everyone else? -7 with a perfectly normal PDO of 100.

So if he played 200 less minutes with the top line like another rookie 3rd pairing defenseman, what would we be using to argue his effectiveness in the NHL? Hits?

So people are wrong when they call him a third pairing defenseman because he was overused and pushed into the wrong role by a clueless coach.

Ahh gotcha...........

Yes because he hasn't shown that he's even a replacement level player.

 

[Ghosts Beer]

But what is he? By being overused he got to play ~350 minutes with arguably the best 1st line in the league.

Do you know what Hagg was with the top line? +11 thanks to a 15% on ice shooting% and a 108 PDO!

Do you know what Hagg was with everyone else? -7 with a perfectly normal PDO of 100.

So if he played 200 less minutes with the top line like another rookie 3rd pairing defenseman, what would we be using to argue his effectiveness in the NHL? Hits?


Yes because he hasn't shown that he's even a replacement level player.

Fine. Play Folin instead. I don’t care. I just don’t get up in arms about a 22 y/o $950k rookie who I think is 3rd pairing caliber but who played 18:08 & often was paired with AMac because the coach didn’t trust Manning & Gudas more.

 

[JojoTheWhale]

I wanted to say “won’t lose you games” is code for can’t play, but it’s not even hidden in a code. That’s openly defining someone as not being good enough to be a positive.

 

[deadhead]

Reality check, when was the last time the Flyers had 5th and 6th defensemen who were "good" players, not merely guys who "won't lose you games?"

 

[JojoTheWhale]

Reality check, when was the last time the Flyers had 5th and 6th defensemen who were "good" players, not merely guys who "won't lose you games?"

Off the top of my head, it has to be pushing 30 years. But now the talent is arriving. They shouldn’t have to for much longer.

As long as guys like that are deployed as the clear 7/6 D, it’s fine. I prefer they don’t exist at all, but that’s never going to happen in the current league climate. Just don’t tell me they provide intangible value or could play up the lineup, injuries excepted.

 

[Beef Invictus]

Unequivocally better.

Also, holy ****, this forum should feel shame, Christian Folin has a 13 page thread..

We've got nothing else to do, the gunslinging controversial Holmgren offseasons are past.

 

[Flyotes]

 

[deadhead]

Off the top of my head, it has to be pushing 30 years. But now the talent is arriving. They shouldn’t have to for much longer.

As long as guys like that are deployed as the clear 7/6 D, it’s fine. I prefer they don’t exist at all, but that’s never going to happen in the current league climate. Just don’t tell me they provide intangible value or could play up the lineup, injuries excepted.

Just for fun, here are some of the defensemen playing real minutes the last couple decades:
2000-01: Delmore, Sykora
2001-02: Therien, Richardson'
2002-03: Seidenberg (21), Yushkevich/McGillis
2003-04: Therien, Pitkanen (20)
2005-06: Myer/Gauthier/Jones/Seidenberg/Therien (34)
2006-07: Picard, Myer/Kukkonen
2007-08: J Smith, Vandermeer/Kukkonen
2008-09: Alberts, Sbisa (19)/Kukkonen
2009-10: Bartulis/Syyret, Parent/Krajicek
2010-11: Coburn, O'Donnell (39) [until Pronger was injured]
2011-12: Grossman/Kubina/Gustafsson/Bourdon/Lilja
2012-13: Grossman, Gervais/Lauridsen/Foster
2013-14: Gustafsson/Meszaros/McDonald, L Schenn
2014-15: Schultz/Schenn/Grossman/Colajacovo (trading Coburn moved Schultz up)
2015-16: Schultz, Manning/Schenn
2016-17: Gudas, Manning/Schultz
2017-18: Manning, Gudas, Sanheim

 

[LegionOfDoom91]

Hagg is gonna get better every year and and his contract I hope is 6 yrs.

That would god awful & totally unnecessary.

 

[David St Hubbins]

Reality check, when was the last time the Flyers had 5th and 6th defensemen who were "good" players, not merely guys who "won't lose you games?"

Last year when they could have opened with Sanheim and Morin.

 

[deadhead]

Two rookie LH defensemen playing together in the NHL for the first time - that would have been butt ugly!

 

[Tripod]

Two rookie LH defensemen playing together in the NHL for the first time - that would have been butt ugly!

Yeah dressing Hagg, AMac and Manning was so beautiful.

 

[BritainStix]

Merazos and odonnel were the best 3rd pairing we have iced in 20 years. They were great together.

 

[mja]

Merazos and odonnel were the best 3rd pairing we have iced in 20 years. They were great together.

Hell, some people thought that Mez was better than Timonen that year.

Also, there's been like 1 actual post on Folin in the last infinity number of pages in this thread. We're just rehashing Hagg to death, which I'm fine with. I still haven't gotten a proper answer as to anything Hagg does particularly well that makes him even a legitimate NHL player.

 

[BritainStix]

Hes actually a quality defebseman defending odd man rushes, he very good down low behind his own net. Hes difficult to remove from the puck in his own zone. There arent many NHL forwards that beat him physically last year.

He has some major flaws, but lets not pretend ge doesnt have strengths

 

[Ghosts Beer]

Hagg has above average size & strength. Is pretty mobile. Plays with good leverage & doesn’t take many penalties. Tries to follow the team’s “structure,” almost to a fault. He’s not without some redeeming qualities.

 

[Juicy Pop]

He also has a slick wrister from the top of the circle.

 

[Doodootheclown]

He also has a slick wrister from the top of the circle.

Look how he made Hedman back off, and he beat one of the better goalies in the league! Stud.

 

[deadhead]

He was also 22, with little help from his defensive partners or most of his forwards (either talented players who don't back check like Voracek and TK, or the bottom six).

Hagg is probably similar to Folin, except Folin was sheltered as a 6/7 and allowed to adjust to the NHL, Hagg was thrown into the fire.
Until Morin actually gets on the ice and shows he can handle the puck in the D-zone without being stripped on a regular basis, we won't know if he's any better than Hagg. But if you look at that list of 5/6/7 defensemen who have played for the Flyers the last thirty years, Hagg would be far from the bottom.

The problem with Hagg is the other defensemen, that is, if Sanheim/Gudas can cement the second pair, and Myers makes the team, suddenly Hagg is playing 15-17 sheltered minutes, has a chance to learn the game, and will probably look a lot better this year. If Sanheim is still a brainless marshmallow, and Gudas can't recover his mojo, and Myers can't stay healthy or screws up in TC, then Hagg may have to play 2nd pair minutes against tougher matchups and will probably struggle.

No one has yet explained to me why Lavi wanted to sign Manning, if Manning is so bad?

 

[mja]

Hes actually a quality defebseman defending odd man rushes, he very good down low behind his own net. Hes difficult to remove from the puck in his own zone. There arent many NHL forwards that beat him physically last year.

He has some major flaws, but lets not pretend ge doesnt have strengths

Most of this sounds about right - he's good one on one defending on the rush and keeping things to the outside.

But difficult to remove from the puck? He never freaking has the puck. And who cares if he's able to pin a forward to the boards for a few seconds if the other team is playing keep away with the puck in our own end the entire time regardless. He's constantly behind the play.

None of this is good enough in today's NHL. Again, I watch Robert Hagg play and do not see a longterm NHLer. Like, I'll be shocked if he's still in the league in 5 years.

 

[sa cyred]

Comes into thread thinking "oh hey more talk on Folin"

See's we are talking about Robert Hagg AGAIN. I guess it's not enough talking about him in the prospect ranking threads, roster threads, etc.