Confirmed with Link: Flyers Sign Christian Folin to one-year contract, $800K

Ghosts Beer

I saw Goody Fletcher with the Devil!
Feb 10, 2014
22,590
16,402
Lol. So we agree that 89 shots in 70 games is not a stat that paints Hagg in a positive light?
I think it’s more positive than negative that a 22 y/o rookie defenseman with his zone starts would have had 100 SOG if he played 82 games & was +5. That’s not to be construed with arguing he’s anything special.
 

FLYguy3911

Sanheim Lover
Oct 19, 2006
52,624
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I think it’s more positive than negative that a 22 y/o rookie defenseman with his zone starts would have had 100 SOG if he played 82 games & was +5. That’s not to be construed with arguing he’s anything special.
1. Shots on goal for defensemen aren't particularly valuable considering they are often low percentage shots. If we are talking about someone on PP1 and/or someone who racks up scoring chances frequently, different story.

2. The Flyers are notorious for playing a low to high game in the OZ. Hagg still ranked towards the bottom league wide in shots per 60.

3. No one on the team had fewer scoring chances per 60 than Hagg. His expected goals per 60 was also the lowest on the team. So we are talking about a guy that is rarely in a position to take dangerous shots.

4. A Player finishing +5 when he was +7 11 games into the season isn't particularly impressive. He rode unsustainable shooting percentages. He had the worst GF% after November for Flyers D (42%).

Unless you are using hits, you just can't use stats to make a case for this player. I don't know why you continue to.
 

Magua

Doer of Hoffific Things
Apr 25, 2016
37,157
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Huron of the Lakes
Magua thinks Hagg has no hockey sense; I think he has almost too much leading to overt conservatism.

giphy.gif


Well, that’s a new one.
 

Ghosts Beer

I saw Goody Fletcher with the Devil!
Feb 10, 2014
22,590
16,402
1. Shots on goal for defensemen aren't particularly valuable considering they are often low percentage shots. If we are talking about someone on PP1 and/or someone who racks up scoring chances frequently, different story.

2. The Flyers are notorious for playing a low to high game in the OZ. Hagg still ranked towards the bottom league wide in shots per 60.

3. No one on the team had fewer scoring chances per 60 than Hagg. His expected goals per 60 was also the lowest on the team. So we are talking about a guy that is rarely in a position to take dangerous shots.

4. A Player finishing +5 when he was +7 11 games into the season isn't particularly impressive. He rode unsustainable shooting percentages. He had the worst GF% after November for Flyers D (42%).

Unless you are using hits, you just can't use stats to make a case for this player. I don't know why you continue to.
Eh, you seem to misconstrue my defense of him as an adequate 3rd pairing caliber defenseman who faced difficult minutes as a 22 y/o rookie & made under a million as more than it is.
 

FLYguy3911

Sanheim Lover
Oct 19, 2006
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Eh, you seem to misconstrue my defense of him as an adequate 3rd pairing caliber defenseman who faced difficult minutes as a 22 y/o rookie & made under a million as more than it is.
No I didn’t. I just provided context to your shitty stats and once again you have nothing. And enough with the 3rd pairing BS.
 

Magua

Doer of Hoffific Things
Apr 25, 2016
37,157
154,045
Huron of the Lakes
Do you think Morin has better “hockey sense” than Hagg?

I certainly do. I don't pretend he has great puck skills, and it does hamper him a bit, but he's a pretty smart player; smart enough at least. It's a physical limitation, not a mental one. He knows how to keep tight gaps, he knows how to pinch correctly, he knows how to move the puck in the cycle game, he knows when to trail rushes, he knows how to position correctly. Despite not having the best puck feel and, yes, looking down a bit too much, I do believe he generally knows what to do with pucks in terms of making reads. More structure in the NHL probably will help.

I didn't mention anything about Morin though. I was more taken aback by the concept of any player -- forget Hagg -- being too smart as an explanation for subpar play and decision making. And yes, Hagg's canyon sized gaps, terrible pinching, inability to make reads, turnovers, tunnel vision, and so on are an indictment of his hockey sense. As I've said before: his "low energy" narrative was just code for not being able to make reads or impact games. Hagg being so smart that he processes everything too quickly and too accurately and can't decide which good option to take so he turns catatonic and takes the worst option.......that's a unique spin, I'll grant you that, Mr. Beer.
 

tymed

Registered User
Jun 11, 2007
2,933
817
British Columbia
Hagg had his mulligan season for me. No point in shitting on a rookie who was thrust into a role much bigger than his ability. I'm fine with writing that off and saving my judgement for this season to see if he's able to make the adjustment and cross a threshold of play into being a reliable bottom guy.
 

deadhead

Registered User
Feb 26, 2014
49,215
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We'll see what Morin can do if he's ever healthy, durability is an important trait.
Hagg did improve as the season progressed, he's never going to be an offensive force, hopefully he'll be solid defensively, that's about as much as any team gets from their 3rd pair defensemen. I'm not sure we'll get more than that from Morin.
We should get that from Folin, and he's a RHD to boot.
 

hatcher

Registered User
Sep 30, 2007
12,377
4,085
Kelowna BC
1. Shots on goal for defensemen aren't particularly valuable considering they are often low percentage shots. If we are talking about someone on PP1 and/or someone who racks up scoring chances frequently, different story.

2. The Flyers are notorious for playing a low to high game in the OZ. Hagg still ranked towards the bottom league wide in shots per 60.

3. No one on the team had fewer scoring chances per 60 than Hagg. His expected goals per 60 was also the lowest on the team. So we are talking about a guy that is rarely in a position to take dangerous shots.

4. A Player finishing +5 when he was +7 11 games into the season isn't particularly impressive. He rode unsustainable shooting percentages. He had the worst GF% after November for Flyers D (42%).

Unless you are using hits, you just can't use stats to make a case for this player. I don't know why you continue to.
All coaches would love him.
 

Ghosts Beer

I saw Goody Fletcher with the Devil!
Feb 10, 2014
22,590
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I certainly do. I don't pretend he has great puck skills, and it does hamper him a bit, but he's a pretty smart player; smart enough at least. It's a physical limitation, not a mental one. He knows how to keep tight gaps, he knows how to pinch correctly, he knows how to move the puck in the cycle game, he knows when to trail rushes, he knows how to position correctly. Despite not having the best puck feel and, yes, looking down a bit too much, I do believe he generally knows what to do with pucks in terms of making reads. More structure in the NHL probably will help.

I didn't mention anything about Morin though. I was more taken aback by the concept of any player -- forget Hagg -- being too smart as an explanation for subpar play and decision making. And yes, Hagg's canyon sized gaps, terrible pinching, inability to make reads, turnovers, tunnel vision, and so on are an indictment of his hockey sense. As I've said before: his "low energy" narrative was just code for not being able to make reads or impact games. Hagg being so smart that he processes everything too quickly and too accurately and can't decide which good option to take so he turns catatonic and takes the worst option.......that's a unique spin, I'll grant you that, Mr. Beer.
Interesting. Because I tend to agree with many of your prospect evaluations. And I usually agree with your evaluations on “hockey sense.” Yet I view Hagg as a pretty smart player with a tendency to get overly conservative out of a fear of mistakes. He has even mentioned before about liking the structure of the pro game.
 

Ghosts Beer

I saw Goody Fletcher with the Devil!
Feb 10, 2014
22,590
16,402
No I didn’t. I just provided context to your ****ty stats and once again you have nothing. And enough with the 3rd pairing BS.
“Enough with the 3rd pairing BS?” What’s the BS part of it? That’s what Hagg is, & what I’ve always said he is. You get pissed about those who offer a defense of him as a cheap depth guy.
 

FLYguy3911

Sanheim Lover
Oct 19, 2006
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“Enough with the 3rd pairing BS?” What’s the BS part of it? That’s what Hagg is, & what I’ve always said he is. You get pissed about those who offer a defense of him as a cheap depth guy.
Saying he is a 3rd pair defenseman is a cop out for his defenders. That's not how he was used. He was mostly a 2nd pair defenseman but on certain nights he was used as a top pair defenseman. Out of his 71 career games, Robert Hagg only has 6 games in which he registered 15 minutes or less of ice time and one of those games he got injured. And this was a player that didn't play on the PP and got removed from the PK due to ineffectiveness and still averaged over 18 minutes a night! That's not a 3rd pair defenseman.

If we are talking about true talent level? Well I would argue he's closer to AHL caliber than he is to NHL 3rd pair caliber.

I don't care if he's cheap. He was not good and he is almost certainly going to be overpaid on his next contract(s).
 

Aurinko

Registered User
Apr 1, 2015
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Finland
Looking at the stats, Hägg is very close to what Folin is. So if you hated Hägg, there is a high chance you won't like Folin either.

I like Folin and that's why I'm here. It's mostly due to his zero ego personality. He's not going to win games for you, but he sure as hell ain't going to lose them either!
 
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deadhead

Registered User
Feb 26, 2014
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Folin's advanced metrics are much better than Hagg, but didn't start playing until he was 23 and didn't play on a steady basis until he was 25.
So he was far more sheltered.

Hagg was 4th in ES TOI at 16:36, Manning was 5th at 16:24, Gudas had 15:10, Sanheim 14:54
2016-17 Gudas played 17:19, [Provorov, Gudas, MDZ and MacDonald all played 17 minutes]
2015-16 Gudas played 16:58, 4th on the team
PO: Gudas played 13:20, 5th on the team (limited ES time, Provorov only played 16:42)

Hagg was the default b/c Gudas lost his coach's confidence (and game 6 suggests the coach wasn't crazy).
 
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FlyTimmo

pit <3
Jul 10, 2013
12,417
10,393
Looking at the stats, Hägg is very close to what Folin is. So if you hated Hägg, there is a high chance you won't like Folin either.

I like Folin and that's why I'm here. It's mostly due to his zero ego personality. He's not going to win games for you, but he sure as hell ain't going to lose them either!

Hagg loses them
 

Ghosts Beer

I saw Goody Fletcher with the Devil!
Feb 10, 2014
22,590
16,402
Saying he is a 3rd pair defenseman is a cop out for his defenders. That's not how he was used. He was mostly a 2nd pair defenseman but on certain nights he was used as a top pair defenseman. Out of his 71 career games, Robert Hagg only has 6 games in which he registered 15 minutes or less of ice time and one of those games he got injured. And this was a player that didn't play on the PP and got removed from the PK due to ineffectiveness and still averaged over 18 minutes a night! That's not a 3rd pair defenseman.

If we are talking about true talent level? Well I would argue he's closer to AHL caliber than he is to NHL 3rd pair caliber.

I don't care if he's cheap. He was not good and he is almost certainly going to be overpaid on his next contract(s).

It’s not a cop out to evaluate Hagg for what he is & say he got overused on a thin D corps.
 
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