Flyers lack toughness

Tripod

I hate this team
Aug 12, 2008
78,751
86,033
Nova Scotia
Given everyone is @Striiker, I just wanted to humble him a bit
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BobbyClarkeFan16

Registered User
Nov 29, 2005
10,777
3,877
Goderich, Ontario
The team that has the puck and dictates pace is always going to look faster.

Throwing the puck to the other team when they're ready and waiting for that is a good way to make them look like speed racers.

Good old dump and chase. Yes, let's effectively kill puck carrying and skating with the puck because GRRRRR FOOOOOOORECHECKING!!!! So now we've got something new to go with ARGH SIIIIIIIIIIIIIZE. This club is so backwards. The offensive scheme has to be Therrien because I can't believe Vigneault would be so obtuse and ignorant to use that kind of system.
 
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Larry44

#FireTortsNOW
Mar 1, 2002
11,872
7,165
Good old dump and chase. Yes, let's effectively kill puck carrying and skating with the puck because GRRRRR FOOOOOOORECHECKING!!!! So now we've got something new to go with ARGH SIIIIIIIIIIIIIZE. This club is so backwards. The offensive scheme has to be Therrien because I can't believe Vigneault would be so obtuse and ignorant to use that kind of system.
He probably isn't paying attention. He's going through the motions at $5M per year. Doesn't watch video. Doesn't see what the kids have to offer before they get called up. Doesn't have a clue why the team fell apart except 'Well, the Ontario kids couldn't work out.'
 

deadhead

Registered User
Feb 26, 2014
49,215
21,617
Every team "dumps and chases," especially when the opposing team challenges the puck carrier at the blue line, get stripped trying to enter the O-zone and it's often an odd man rush the other direction.

To make the dump and chase work, you have to have guys willing and able to chase, which means you need guys with speed and physicality, who can get to the puck, retrieve it and make things happen. Flyers don't have enough of those guys.

A good forechecking line can do that, keep the puck in the O-zone, create pressure, then allow a scoring line to have a O-zone faceoff or start against a worn out defense that can't get off the ice. In the playoffs, the Isles 4th line and the TB Gourde line have done that repeatedly.
 

Lindberg

Bennyflyers16 get a life
Oct 5, 2013
7,151
7,850
Every team "dumps and chases," especially when the opposing team challenges the puck carrier at the blue line, get stripped trying to enter the O-zone and it's often an odd man rush the other direction.

To make the dump and chase work, you have to have guys willing and able to chase, which means you need guys with speed and physicality, who can get to the puck, retrieve it and make things happen. Flyers don't have enough of those guys.

A good forechecking line can do that, keep the puck in the O-zone, create pressure, then allow a scoring line to have a O-zone faceoff or start against a worn out defense that can't get off the ice. In the playoffs, the Isles 4th line and the TB Gourde line have done that repeatedly.

Dump and chase should be a reactionary scheme to an opposing team, not a structure/idea that you're building your team around.
 

kudymen

Hakstok was a fascist clique hiver lickballs.gif
Jun 18, 2011
22,796
44,200
Atlanta (Decatur)
To make the dump and chase work, you have to have guys willing and able to chase, which means you need guys with speed and physicality, who can get to the puck, retrieve it and make things happen. Flyers don't have enough of those guys.

I'm not going to contest the idea of dump and chase being usual and normal in the league. However, if "Flyers don't have those guys" maybe the first thing (when not moving away from our guys) to do could be adjusting the system closer to something the Flyers actually do have.
 
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deadhead

Registered User
Feb 26, 2014
49,215
21,617
I'm not going to contest the idea of dump and chase being usual and normal in the league. However, if "Flyers don't have those guys" maybe the first thing (when not moving away from our guys) to do could be adjusting the system closer to something the Flyers actually do have.

Abject surrender?

Flyers do dump and chase more than average, but it's not some incredible divergence:

"In Sznajder’s 2018-19 manually tracked data set, teams on average dumped the puck into the offensive zone on 51.57 percent of their successful entries, gaining the zone with control 48.43 percent of the time. The 2019-20 Flyers, on the other hand, skewed more dramatically toward the dump-in strategy. Based on my tracking work this season, before undertaking this project, I found the Flyers dumped the puck in on 57.58 percent of their entries, more than 6 percentage points higher than the league average in Sznajder’s tracking the previous year."

However, the real problem last year:

"A more eye-opening year-over-year discrepancy comes in their ability to create shots off high-danger passes — passes that either crossed through the slot or originated from below the goal line. In 2019-20, a whopping 12.1 percent of the Flyers’ five-on-five shots came off high-danger passes, trailing only the New York Rangers (12.2 percent) for tops in the league in Sznajder’s dataset. This season? That dropped to 7.3 percent, ranking them 18th in the league (the Rangers were still first)."
 

deadhead

Registered User
Feb 26, 2014
49,215
21,617
Though any critique of last season needs to take this into account:

"Fletcher revealed that out of the 29-ish players who were on the roster or regulars on the taxi squad, 20 were hit with COVID-19 at some point over the past 5-6 months."

Now a lot of teams had issues, but I think the Flyers have to be among the league leaders, along with NJ and Vancouver.

And that could go a long way in explaining why the team looked flat if a number of players were just mild "long-haulers," they'd still be less than 100% for most of the season (fatigue is a common symptom).
 

Captain Dave Poulin

Imaginary Cat
Apr 30, 2015
68,015
199,721
Tokyo, JP
Though any critique of last season needs to take this into account:

"Fletcher revealed that out of the 29-ish players who were on the roster or regulars on the taxi squad, 20 were hit with COVID-19 at some point over the past 5-6 months."

Now a lot of teams had issues, but I think the Flyers have to be among the league leaders, along with NJ and Vancouver.

And that could go a long way in explaining why the team looked flat if a number of players were just mild "long-haulers," they'd still be less than 100% for most of the season (fatigue is a common symptom).

lol
 
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Magua

Doer of Hoffific Things
Apr 25, 2016
37,169
154,077
Huron of the Lakes
Flyers do dump and chase more than average, but it's not some incredible divergence:

"In Sznajder’s 2018-19 manually tracked data set, teams on average dumped the puck into the offensive zone on 51.57 percent of their successful entries, gaining the zone with control 48.43 percent of the time. The 2019-20 Flyers, on the other hand, skewed more dramatically toward the dump-in strategy. Based on my tracking work this season, before undertaking this project, I found the Flyers dumped the puck in on 57.58 percent of their entries, more than 6 percentage points higher than the league average in Sznajder’s tracking the previous year."

However, the real problem last year:

"A more eye-opening year-over-year discrepancy comes in their ability to create shots off high-danger passes — passes that either crossed through the slot or originated from below the goal line. In 2019-20, a whopping 12.1 percent of the Flyers’ five-on-five shots came off high-danger passes, trailing only the New York Rangers (12.2 percent) for tops in the league in Sznajder’s dataset. This season? That dropped to 7.3 percent, ranking them 18th in the league (the Rangers were still first)."

Those zone entry stats are for 19-20, not 20-21. I don't have those on hand. It's a fact the Flyers dump the puck in quite a lot. The first 2 months of Vigneault's tenure, it was preposterous 60+% dump-in rates. It stabilized, but it was definitely still on the high end. But the Flyers entire scheme revolved around forechecking. It was a consistent thing that when they could not forecheck well, their entire game went to shit.

Teams can excel at dump and chasing. The Flyers breakouts bother me a lot more than the entries. Skilled players still get their individual entries, but exits are very difficult with poor scheme and those can alter the entries thereafter. How many times do all 3 forwards purposefully fly the zone, center included? Resulting in no options for the defense when they get forechecked, or a desperate fling out, or at best and by design, a long stretch into a re-direct entry? It's scheme. I differentiate this from having speed/control prior to a carefully placed chip, when the defense isn't waiting for it but must pivot.
 

deadhead

Registered User
Feb 26, 2014
49,215
21,617
Those zone entry stats are for 19-20, not 20-21. I don't have those on hand. It's a fact the Flyers dump the puck in quite a lot. The first 2 months of Vigneault's tenure, it was preposterous 60+% dump-in rates. It stabilized, but it was definitely still on the high end. But the Flyers entire scheme revolved around forechecking. It was a consistent thing that when they could not forecheck well, their entire game went to shit.

Teams can excel at dump and chasing. The Flyers breakouts bother me a lot more than the entries. Skilled players still get their individual entries, but exits are very difficult with poor scheme and those can alter the entries thereafter. How many times do all 3 forwards purposefully fly the zone, center included? Resulting in no options for the defense when they get forechecked, or a desperate fling out, or at best and by design, a long stretch into a re-direct entry? It's scheme. I differentiate this from having speed/control prior to a carefully placed chip, when the defense isn't waiting for it but must pivot.

Well, I don't know how much is coaching v personnel.

I do think they need to make some personnel changes, get younger and faster down the lineup (i.e. I can live with G and Couts on the 1st line, but JVR and Voracek as bigger, slower forwards that aren't great forecheckers on the 3rd line?). I'd be happy to struggle a bit with a younger faster team going through growing pains than highly paid veterans entering the down slope of their careers.

And they need young players to find a balance, TK went from overaggressive to too careful in the same season, but some of that is experience, when to gamble and when to play it safe. You can inflate individual stats by gambling, the current Blackhawks (and Isles under Wright), at the cost of team defense and puck control. It's the same with the cycle, you have to be aware of your D-men and rotate back - when the forwards don't do so, the D-man can't aggressively attack in the O-zone. So D-men look passive when it's really the fault of the forwards.

I think we'll get some clues about COVID by Fletcher's decisions with younger players, I think those that seemed to be slowed by COVID will get a mulligan, those who were healthy and played slow may get a new address.
 

deadhead

Registered User
Feb 26, 2014
49,215
21,617
He's not fast anymore, he's not 22 anymore. And Jake ain't exactly a "balls to the wall" player.
JVR ain't no speedster, but he skated harder this season after going MIA in the bubble.

Though fast isn't enough, a year ago NAK used his speed to make plays, this season he was on "the road to nowhere."
What this team needs is one or two young forwards who play like NAK last season with a bit more skill.
Fast, physical with an edge, separating D-men from the puck and making plays.

You can't dump and chase if you can't chase.
But if you are good at dump and chase, defensemen will start to cheat back and zone entries are easier.
 

Beef Invictus

Revolutionary Positivity
Dec 21, 2009
127,494
164,354
Armored Train
Well, I don't know how much is coaching v personnel.

I do think they need to make some personnel changes, get younger and faster down the lineup (i.e. I can live with G and Couts on the 1st line, but JVR and Voracek as bigger, slower forwards that aren't great forecheckers on the 3rd line?). I'd be happy to struggle a bit with a younger faster team going through growing pains than highly paid veterans entering the down slope of their careers.

And they need young players to find a balance, TK went from overaggressive to too careful in the same season, but some of that is experience, when to gamble and when to play it safe. You can inflate individual stats by gambling, the current Blackhawks (and Isles under Wright), at the cost of team defense and puck control. It's the same with the cycle, you have to be aware of your D-men and rotate back - when the forwards don't do so, the D-man can't aggressively attack in the O-zone. So D-men look passive when it's really the fault of the forwards.

I think we'll get some clues about COVID by Fletcher's decisions with younger players, I think those that seemed to be slowed by COVID will get a mulligan, those who were healthy and played slow may get a new address.

It's entirely coaching. With nearly the same roster they did lots of controlled entry and transition under Hakstol instead of the AV YOLO
 

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