Fleury lives the hype

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Les Zarbites

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People who wants the pens to give Fleury a try out are asking this question : why not give him 5-10 games ?

To which I'll reply : what is there to gain for the pens to play him on what is in most people opinion the worst team in the NHL ?

Even Brodeur would be hard pressed to bring this team into the playoffs. What about a 19 years old kid who has no experience in the NHL ?

Fleury could possibly be ready but you guys should ask yourselves these questions :

1. Can Fleury's development be stunted if he goes back to the Q even if he's almost NHL ready ?

2. How much is there to gain by playing him 10 games or more compared to the risk there is to play him against the best players in the world on a bottom 5 team in the NHL ?

Is there even a goalie coach in Pittsburgh ?

Send the kid back to his junior team. Let him build his confidence. There's not enough to gain compared to the risk.
 

Steve Latin*

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IGM said:
I say that even if he does great that you need to send him down for a couple of years. What would it hurt to let the kid dominate in the AHL for a few years? I don't think it would do anything except build his confidence. That is the most valuable asset a young goalie can have isn't it?

I agree that he should be in the Q this year. Even if we keep him for 10 games, or whatever the limit is, I think we'd still need to put Aubin on waivers (right?). In that case, he could be picked up and we'd need a back-up onc Fleury went back to the Q.

I'm impressed by Fleury's performance, but the only reason I see for keeping him is to sell tickets. Sadly, I think that may be the determining factor.

S L
 

Steve Latin*

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IGM said:
I am sorry to have tried to use actual logic with you. I won't let it happen again. The FACT is that Storr and Stauber were also both hailed as great goalies but I forgot that Fluery is better than Roy and that the usual time needed for developement and timing doesn't apply to him. Sorry about forgetting that there has never been his equal nor will their ever be. I should have remembered that he is the best goalie of all time and then realized that he won't need any time to develope. After reading your stunning report on him I have changed my mind. I say, let him be your starter, heck, it will give him tons of experience and with him in net you simply can't lose!

Amazing.


Great post, but it would've been better if you
a.) compared Fleury to Barasso
b.) pointed out that Fleury > Brodeur
c.) argued that he was a much better prospect than Lehtonen because of his showing at the WJC, and also because Lehtonen plays on one of the best teams in his league.

Just some tips for next time...

S L
 

Jacob

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First question, why is everybody crapping on MacIsaac?!!

Nobody's 'crapping' on him (I don't think), some folks are just disagreeing with him. He didn't really state his opinion very well and skipped out on some questions folks had for him.

Even if he does play well he will only play at most 40 games. In Cape Breton he wll play 50-60 games.

Well first of all, I'd say that 40 games isn't bad at all. It'll be first-hand experience against the best players in the world. But that's only IF he can compete, if he is showing that he can regularly perform to the standards of a normal NHL starter. But that's 40 games minimum, any less and I think he'd be better served in Cape Breton. That'll be 40 games that he can build on for the next year, and maybe up the total to 50. But we're getting way ahead of ourselves here, that's all best case scenario. I just don't see how you can state the things you did as a fact.

But it's not etched in stone that he will play NO MORE than 40 games. Caron can be sent to the minors if he's not getting playing time.

Again, best case scenario.

To which I'll reply : what is there to gain for the pens to play him on what is in most people opinion the worst team in the NHL ?

Even Brodeur would be hard pressed to bring this team into the playoffs. What about a 19 years old kid who has no experience in the NHL ?

Who's talking about the playoffs? Or Brodeur for that matter? It's only ten games.

Is there even a goalie coach in Pittsburgh ?

There are two.

Send the kid back to his junior team. Let him build his confidence. There's not enough to gain compared to the risk.

Let's say he does earn a job on the starting roster (which is exactly what he's doing), he starts a game and gets shelled. 5 goals against and gets yanked in the second. He gets another start a week later, gives up 4 goals and gets the loss. The Penguins decide he's not ready, and send him back to Cape Breton. Where's the harm? This kid probably had a number of 4-5 goal games last season in the Q, I don't see how a couple against the best players in the world are going to all of a sudden kill his confidence. Experience is experience. He got a taste of the NHL and now he knows that it isn't as easy as it looks. That's motivation to work harder, train smarter, and be ready for next season.
 

Les Zarbites

Registered User
Jacobv2 said:
Who's talking about the playoffs? Or Brodeur for that matter? It's only ten games.

Try reading between the lines :

How can you expect a 19 year old kid with no NHL experience not to get shelled with the pens next season when even the best goalie in the league right now would be hard pressed to look good with the Pens this season (speculation but still a more than fair assumption).

Brodeur has nothing to do in this debate I merely used him as a way to explain what I clumsily wanted to say. I know I'm not Shakespeare but was it so damn hard to understand ?

Jacobv2 said:
There are two.

I wasn't trying to be a smart ass I was just asking a question. Beside someone had already answered that question with more details.

Jacobv2 said:
Let's say he does earn a job on the starting roster (which is exactly what he's doing), he starts a game and gets shelled. 5 goals against and gets yanked in the second. He gets another start a week later, gives up 4 goals and gets the loss. The Penguins decide he's not ready, and send him back to Cape Breton. Where's the harm? This kid probably had a number of 4-5 goal games last season in the Q, I don't see how a couple against the best players in the world are going to all of a sudden kill his confidence. Experience is experience. He got a taste of the NHL and now he knows that it isn't as easy as it looks. That's motivation to work harder, train smarter, and be ready for next season.

The rangers and islanders coaching staff probably said that too when they decided to put their 18 year old rookie goaltenders in the net. Eh where's the harm ? His confidence shouldn't be hurt. After all he'll be playing against the best players in the world. And those two teens had much better teams in front of them.

I'm not saying Fleury's developement would automatically be stunted if he was to play in the NHL this year but history is against you on this one.

Another question : is some "experience" and the knowledge that the NHL isn't as easy as it looks worth the risk of seeing history repeating itself ? Those 4-5 goals in one game is far from the worst case scenario. What about 4-5 goals in 1 period and a half and the kid being pulled out of the 2-3 games he played ? He's 19 years old and he's had a lot of hype and media exposure. There's a lot of pressure on this kid as 1st draft pick overall. Why add even more by giving him the keys to the town after a few pre-season games ?

So you say he has earned his spots after 2-3 good AHL caliber pre-season games ? Send him back to the Q, let him do some damage, let him come back for one more training camp, one year older, more confident and experienced. If he dominates those pre-season games again then he'll have earned it.

My opinion is that it is asking too much of a teenager to play as a starter in the NHL while his development would go just as fast in the Q.

Jacobv2 said:
He(JasonMcIsaac) didn't really state his opinion very well and skipped out on some questions folks had for him.

Talking about not answering questions ...

You chose to ignore some questions and parts of my post too.
 

Evilo

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We don't EXPECT him to not get shelled.
So far he doesn't.
He has amazing numbers.
It's only preseason, yes, buyt when you face Boston's first line and you don't get shelled, why would he get shelled in his first NHL games either?
Until he gets beaten badly, why would we make the assumption he's going to get burnt?
He has to prove he's not up to the task before we make that conclusion for him.
And he'll know that he was send back for hockey purposes and work on his game, not for "age" purposes.
 

IGM

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"Shelled" refers to the amount of shots that he will face over the course of the season. So yes, to date he has been in two whole games and of course you can tell what the entire season will be like based on what happens in the preseason.

And isn't it obvious that it is an issue of experience with his game and his mental ability to handle the NHL game as the reason that he needs to spend time in the minors. He will sit the majority of the season in the NHL. Why not let him actually play in a pro league where he will be your starting goalie and get allot of ice time instea

never mind. why bother, you are right, he is a god and is going to be the first 18 year old goalie to lead his hapless team to the cup. Sorry for trying.
 

Les Zarbites

Registered User
Evilo said:
We don't EXPECT him to not get shelled.
So far he doesn't.
He has amazing numbers.
It's only preseason, yes, buyt when you face Boston's first line and you don't get shelled, why would he get shelled in his first NHL games either?Until he gets beaten badly, why would we make the assumption he's going to get burnt?

Yes it is only pre-season and the few saves he made against Big Joe's line doesn't matter all that much. Most teams are still not fully used to the NHL game speed, not giving full effort, keeping their energy for the real thing, etc.

Why would he get shelled in his first NHL games ? Because the games will be significantly different come october. You just can't have those expectations that he won't get shelled just because he faced Big Joe's line in a pre-season game and did well can you ?

Evilo said:
He has to prove he's not up to the task before we make that conclusion for him. And he'll know that he was send back for hockey purposes and work on his game, not for "age" purposes.

You see I view it the other way around. He has to prove he's up to the task first. Especially since he's a goalie. And 2 pre-season games just doesn't do it for me (even one against Thornton-Murray). That's not enough. 5 wouldn't be enough neither. There's no way in my mind Fleury can earn a spot this pre-season. Let him go back to the Q, dominate, come back , get another solid training camp and pre-season after another long summer of hard work. Now that's earning your spot. Not playing 4-5 AHL caliber games and doing well in each of thos and being spoon fed the goaltender starting spot just under the nose of Caron.

Money purposes ? Now you're making it sound like the Pens would be screwing him of a roster spot that he has rightfully earned. Please. That's not what I call earning.
 

Jacob

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How can you expect a 19 year old kid with no NHL experience not to get shelled with the pens next season when even the best goalie in the league right now would be hard pressed to look good with the Pens this season (speculation but still a more than fair assumption).
I do expect it quite frankly. But that's what I keep saying, if he gets shelled in his first couple games, you send him down. Is it really that hard to understand?

The rangers and islanders coaching staff probably said that too when they decided to put their 18 year old rookie goaltenders in the net. Eh where's the harm ? His confidence shouldn't be hurt. After all he'll be playing against the best players in the world. And those two teens had much better teams in front of them.
There WAS harm in those situations because they didn't send the goalies back when they clearly showed they weren't ready. Do you get it? I feel like I'm conversing with a brick wall here. If Fleury faulters, which you and I both seem to think is very likely, we simply send him to Cape Breton with a pat on the back and tell him we'll see him in a year.

Another question : is some "experience" and the knowledge that the NHL isn't as easy as it looks worth the risk of seeing history repeating itself ? Those 4-5 goals in one game is far from the worst case scenario. What about 4-5 goals in 1 period and a half and the kid being pulled out of the 2-3 games he played ? He's 19 years old and he's had a lot of hype and media exposure. There's a lot of pressure on this kid as 1st draft pick overall. Why add even more by giving him the keys to the town after a few pre-season games ?

Are you referring to Blackburn and DiPietro? They werent ruined by playing 2-3 games when they weren't ready, they were ruined by playing 20-30 games when they weren't ready, and the rest of the season on the bench. There is a HUGE difference in the scenarios I've proposed and the ones you're referring to, huge.

So you say he has earned his spots after 2-3 good AHL caliber pre-season games ? Send him back to the Q, let him do some damage, let him come back for one more training camp, one year older, more confident and experienced. If he dominates those pre-season games again then he'll have earned it.

My opinion is that it is asking too much of a teenager to play as a starter in the NHL while his development would go just as fast in the Q.

But why? He's played great thus far, in camp, in practice, and in preseason games. What if he can win us some games? Like I said, with a brief tryout, there is absolutely no harm in seeing just how ready he really is. He could do pretty well, it's unlikely, but he has shown NOTHING thus far to say he won't do well. You're just comparing him to other goaltenders to get the point across. Fleury is not Dipietro. I'm not saying he's better, or worse, he's just different.

Talking about not answering questions ...

You chose to ignore some questions and parts of my post too.

Did I answer them all now? I feel like I'm simply repeating myself.

"Shelled" refers to the amount of shots that he will face over the course of the season. So yes, to date he has been in two whole games and of course you can tell what the entire season will be like based on what happens in the preseason.

But we WON'T let his 2-3 games thus far dictate the entire season. That's the whole point.

:dunno:
 

Evilo

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IGM said:
"Shelled" refers to the amount of shots that he will face over the course of the season. So yes, to date he has been in two whole games and of course you can tell what the entire season will be like based on what happens in the preseason.

And isn't it obvious that it is an issue of experience with his game and his mental ability to handle the NHL game as the reason that he needs to spend time in the minors. He will sit the majority of the season in the NHL. Why not let him actually play in a pro league where he will be your starting goalie and get allot of ice time instea

never mind. why bother, you are right, he is a god and is going to be the first 18 year old goalie to lead his hapless team to the cup. Sorry for trying.
OK will you please stop your BS??????
I never said he was god. I said he deserved the right to try out for ten games.
Could you please ****ing read????
 

Evilo

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Habsolution said:
Yes it is only pre-season and the few saves he made against Big Joe's line doesn't matter all that much. Most teams are still not fully used to the NHL game speed, not giving full effort, keeping their energy for the real thing, etc.

Why would he get shelled in his first NHL games ? Because the games will be significantly different come october. You just can't have those expectations that he won't get shelled just because he faced Big Joe's line in a pre-season game and did well can you ?



You see I view it the other way around. He has to prove he's up to the task first. Especially since he's a goalie. And 2 pre-season games just doesn't do it for me (even one against Thornton-Murray). That's not enough. 5 wouldn't be enough neither. There's no way in my mind Fleury can earn a spot this pre-season. Let him go back to the Q, dominate, come back , get another solid training camp and pre-season after another long summer of hard work. Now that's earning your spot. Not playing 4-5 AHL caliber games and doing well in each of thos and being spoon fed the goaltender starting spot just under the nose of Caron.

Money purposes ? Now you're making it sound like the Pens would be screwing him of a roster spot that he has rightfully earned. Please. That's not what I call earning.
The logic is VERY simple :
Until he does bad, keep him.
See the logic? Quite simply, huh?
So far he's been up to the task. So why send him back simply by presuming he'll get burnt, while he's shown NO sign of getting burtn at all so far?
 

Evilo

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Habsolution said:
Yes it is only pre-season and the few saves he made against Big Joe's line doesn't matter all that much. Most teams are still not fully used to the NHL game speed, not giving full effort, keeping their energy for the real thing, etc.

Why would he get shelled in his first NHL games ? Because the games will be significantly different come october. You just can't have those expectations that he won't get shelled just because he faced Big Joe's line in a pre-season game and did well can you ?



You see I view it the other way around. He has to prove he's up to the task first. Especially since he's a goalie. And 2 pre-season games just doesn't do it for me (even one against Thornton-Murray). That's not enough. 5 wouldn't be enough neither. There's no way in my mind Fleury can earn a spot this pre-season. Let him go back to the Q, dominate, come back , get another solid training camp and pre-season after another long summer of hard work. Now that's earning your spot. Not playing 4-5 AHL caliber games and doing well in each of thos and being spoon fed the goaltender starting spot just under the nose of Caron.

Money purposes ? Now you're making it sound like the Pens would be screwing him of a roster spot that he has rightfully earned. Please. That's not what I call earning.
"He has to prove he's up to the task first"

Is that what you're saying, right? So tell me, how can he prove at all? If preseason means nothing, if junior means nothing, HOW CAN HE PROVE????

Flawed logic.
 

Les Zarbites

Registered User
He might make the team. And he might be great. Or he might suck and be sent down. His confidence also could get hurt by being rushed in the NHL(even for only 5-10 games). You guys have no idea what is and what would be going on in his head if he was to play for the pens this season.

All I am saying is that there's not much to gain by playing him this season as 19 year old starter behind what is most likely one of the 3 worst team in the NHL. There's absolutely no need or urgency for the pens to play Fleury in the NHL this year and since bringing a goalie in the league slowly and patiently has proven to be a good method thus far I just don't see why the pens should do it differently.

If you guys can't understand that some people hold an opinion that is different than yours then there's no point discussing it and let's agree to disagre.
 

PecaFan

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IGM said:
Stauber won the hobie baker and set many records while in the NCAA. The Kings were offered the number one pick in the draft for him the year he turned pro.

You sure you're thinking of the right goalie? Robb Stauber was a *sixth* round pick. He turned pro in 1989, or 1990 depending on how you count, which would mean the Sundin draft, or the Nolan/Jagr draft. If LA had ever been offered the #1 pick for Stauber, they would have taken it in a millisecond.

As for Stauber himself, any comparison to Fleury couldn't be further off. There was no "rushing" of Stauber. He didn't play an NHL game until two years after he won the Hobey Baker. And that was it for that season, 83 minutes. And that was at the age of *23*. He didn't play another minute of NHL hockey until he was *26*.
http://hockeydb.com/ihdb/stats/usage.php3?pid=5158
 

Jacob

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Habsolution said:
He might make the team. And he might be great. Or he might suck and be sent down. His confidence also could get hurt by being rushed in the NHL(even for only 5-10 games). You guys have no idea what is and what would be going on in his head if he was to play for the pens this season.

All I am saying is that there's not much to gain by playing him this season as 19 year old starter behind what is most likely one of the 3 worst team in the NHL. There's absolutely no need or urgency for the pens to play Fleury in the NHL this year and since bringing a goalie in the league slowly and patiently has proven to be a good method thus far I just don't see why the pens should do it differently.

If you guys can't understand that some people hold an opinion that is different than yours then there's no point discussing it and let's agree to disagre.

So you think that he can learn more by playing in the Q than he can playing in the NHL?
 

Evilo

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Habsolution said:
He might make the team. And he might be great. Or he might suck and be sent down. His confidence also could get hurt by being rushed in the NHL(even for only 5-10 games). You guys have no idea what is and what would be going on in his head if he was to play for the pens this season.

All I am saying is that there's not much to gain by playing him this season as 19 year old starter behind what is most likely one of the 3 worst team in the NHL. There's absolutely no need or urgency for the pens to play Fleury in the NHL this year and since bringing a goalie in the league slowly and patiently has proven to be a good method thus far I just don't see why the pens should do it differently.

If you guys can't understand that some people hold an opinion that is different than yours then there's no point discussing it and let's agree to disagre.

Because of course YOU know what would happen in his head :rolleyes:

And may I remind you you're the one trying to change our opinions. Not us.
You won't convince us because you keep on missing the questions asked about your flawed logic.
Sorry.
Once again can you tell me how Fleury can EARN the spot? Since nothing counts according to you. No preseason games count. No practice counts. Nothing. So how can he earn his spot???
You can't send someone back to juniors only for "age" reasons. Especially if he's proved to be up to the task.
So far he's proved that he's not rididcule.
No harm in letting him play a few games and see from there.
 

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How much would it cost the Pens to keep him up for 10 games? Like it or not, money is a huge issue for them.

If he is their best option in goal, and he might be, then why not keep him up. Yes the team stinks, but they have a bunch of young kids up anyway. Could be a great bonding experience for that young crew, plus if it is Mario's last year I am sure Fleury would love to experience that with him.

It is not like anyone is expecting anything out of Pitt this year. And I do not buy the "one tough season will ruin a goaltender" logic.
 

JasonMacIsaac

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Sorry didn't mean to skip out on some questions :)

Jacobv2 , I can only go on assumption but you would expect Caron as thew starter to start around 50 to 60 games giving Fleury 20 to 30 to keep sharp and improve his skills which I don't think is enough. He would get around 70 games with Cape Breton including playoffs.
 

Les Zarbites

Registered User
Evilo said:
Because of course YOU know what would happen in his head :rolleyes:

Have I ever said Fleury was sure to bust and lose confidence if he was to play with the pens ? HAVE I EVER SAID THAT ? What I said is that he couldn't possibly be able to look good with a team like the pens. And that there were a risk that he'd lose confidence and that this risk wasn't worth those 5-10 games at the NHL level.

Evilo said:
No harm in letting him play a few games and see from there.

I don't know if there could be harm to his confindence if he played at the NHL level. I don't even think Fleury knows what's good for him right now. So how could you possibly know what would happen in his head ?


Evilo said:
And may I remind you you're the one trying to change our opinions. Not us.

No I'm not ... I'm accepting your opinion. But I hold a different one.

Evilo said:
You won't convince us because you keep on missing the questions asked about your flawed logic.
Sorry.

Are you trying to say only your opinion is right ? Yes ? I thought so

Evilo said:
Once again can you tell me how Fleury can EARN the spot? Since nothing counts according to you. No preseason games count. No practice counts. Nothing. So how can he earn his spot???
You can't send someone back to juniors only for "age" reasons. Especially if he's proved to be up to the task.
So far he's proved that he's not rididcule.

Oh now common stop putting words in my mouth. I never said junior means nothing. What I say is that he can't win a starting spot on the pens team with one pre-season. I already said what I felt he had to do to earn it. Go back to junior and help his team win games. Then come back to the pens training camp next season and keep kicking ass. Then I will feel he has earned it. No he can't possibly earn a spot this year in my opinion. How is an opinion that is different than yours automatically flawed logic ?
 

Les Zarbites

Registered User
Jacobv2 said:
So you think that he can learn more by playing in the Q than he can playing in the NHL?

Obviously if he's able to compete at the NHL level as a 19 years old starter behind one of the 3 worst team in the NHL then he'd stand more to gain by playing in the NHL. But I don't believe this is the case. Either way his development sure won't be hurt by winning games in the Q while building his confidence for the NHL level.
 

Evilo

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1.50 GAA, .940 something save percentage.
I think that's his numbers so far.
How can you send back a kid with these numbers?
 

Les Zarbites

Registered User
Evilo said:
1.50 GAA, .940 something save percentage.
I think that's his numbers so far.
How can you send back a kid with these numbers?

Oh yeah I forgot those important pre-season stats compiled over the course of 2 very long and important games.

To note : he faced the awesome Samso-Thorton-Murray line !

You are right. You have a very good point he definately should get a long look at the NHL level. And to think all you needed to do was post his stats to bring me back in the light. Oh man did we just waste some time arguing for nothing!

sigh....
 

Jeff Goldblum

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But if preseason means nothing, how does one go about making a team? Prior experience? Sure, if you're Mario Lemieux. Preseason games determine who makes the big club. It determines players' future. There may not be many games, especially for a goalie to play, but that small amount of games determines a clubs' opening night line-up.
 

IGM

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I see, if we go by your "logic" then there 8 other goalies that I have found with better pre season stats then Fluery so if we are only going by stats then we better call a fwe GM's and tell them to keep those guys with the big team.

Heck as long as we are following your logic, then we better call the press too, I just found 8 more goalies that are better than the greatest kid goalie of all time! Step out of the way Fluery.
 
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