Prospect Info: Flames prospect rankings: #3

[OvermanKingGainer]

I said it last year, and I'll say it again... I don't understand the Kylington hype. What do we know that NHL scouts don't?

We know that you can't know how a defenseman will turn out while they are seventeen because the position inherently requires further development for all but the prodigal Aaron Ekblads of the world.

Through two rounds, NHL organizations didn't want him

And that's a big deal?

Niklas Lidstrom- #53OA
PK Subban - #43OA
Zdeno Chara - #56OA
Kris Letang - #62OA
Duncan Keith - #52OA
Shea Weber - #49OA

I think the general range where Kylington was selected has produced its share of not-just-good, but elite defensemen who "other NHL organizations passed over". The reason for this comes right back to what I said earlier - identifying a Zach Bogosian from a TJ Brodie is almost impossible at age 17 because the position requires so much development. If drafts were performed at age 20 or 22, draft orders would be rather different.

, and we know he's got some pretty massive holes in his defensive game.

Hyperbole. His positioning and decision-making on draft day needed work, but showed rapid progress over his draft+1 season. Those are not the only two important tools to projecting defensive players though. Two things that strongly correlate to strong defense are

- Skating Ability
- Breakout ability

These two elements are more natural - inherent to a player's talent set than their experience level. You can't teach Wotherspoon to skate at an almost Olympic level like with Kylington. You can't teach Kanzig to navigate traffic against an oncoming forecheck and hit the streaking open man like Kylington.

You can teach Kylington to make safer decisions like Wotherspoon and you can teach Kylington to play better positioning - and Todd Gill has done that working with the player. By the end of his rookie pro season Kylington was not a significantly worse defensive player than the average AHL D-man. He was still 18.

Brodie had some pretty massive holes in his defensive even when he was twenty. Now Brodie is potentially our best defensive player, possibly in franchise history even counting guys like Regehr and MacInnis. Because positioning, stickwork, and safe decision-making are teachable skills. Applying them to talented players is necessary to get strong results overall - that's just defensively.

With 12 points in 47 games last year, it's not like we've got some rare-talent offensive scoring machine, either.

Those are actually strong numbers for a player who was 18 all season on a team with plenty of offensive defensemen each vying for some power play time.

But to put that into some perspective, Josh Morrissey, from Monahan's draft year, a #13 overall pick, 1.24 PPG defenseman in Junior, had 3G-19A-22pts in 57 GP (0.386 PPG) as a 20 year old AHL rookie in the same season. Kylington's 12 points in 47 games (0.255 PPG) in a season as an 18 year old where he had a concussion and our power play fell off the map in the closing stretch is not unimpressive. Wotherspoon, in his Draft+5 season didn't even put up the same stats.

He did hold his own in the AHL, yeah, but I think I'd have to question whether he stuck there as a result of management's promise to have him play there. Did he just survive the season, or was he a difference maker?

Kylington was probably the fourth most useful defenseman on the team. 21-year-old Kulak, 22-year-old Wotherspoon, and 27-year-old Nakladal being the three more useful defensemen. Kylington was at least on par with 21-year old Sieloff over the season. Kylington/Sieloff were both better than Culkin, who had a rough season and barely even played in the A. All these guys were better than Morrison, who will be fighting hard to get a new contract next year.

I'm just not sure that Kylington's one year has really changed much. His holes are still holes.

His 'holes' are more rough edges at this point. See this quote from the Sun:

“He really did a good job,” said Ryan Huska, Calgary’s American Hockey League coach in Stockton. “He was a little less high-risk and made smarter decisions with the puck and learned how to defend. I think he came down there and did an excellent job.

“Even hearing from some guys yesterday, they were impressed at how he was using his stick to his advantage. We were really pleased at how that side of his game has come along.”

(source)

 

[Ace Rimmer]

I said it last year, and I'll say it again... I don't understand the Kylington hype. What do we know that NHL scouts don't? Through two rounds, NHL organizations didn't want him, and we know he's got some pretty massive holes in his defensive game. With 12 points in 47 games last year, it's not like we've got some rare-talent offensive scoring machine, either.

Well this was a guy that was being mentioned right after McDavid and Eichel before the start of the 2014/15 season, not as good as those guys but right up there in the top five of the draft. What did scouts see before October of 2014 that caused them to think this?

His stock dropped like a rock after the performance in the 5 nations tournament (IIRC his play was described as "horrendous") but that was an incredibly small sample size. He also played on what, 3 or 4 different teams in his draft year? That, coupled with the scrutiny of being a top ranked player certainly didn't help. I also think if he was able to play in the World Juniors (injured) he would have been picked much higher than 60. I also think all of these things eroded his confidence somewhat, further affecting his game.

He was playing in a men's league at 16 years old. His skating is already world class, and his ability to transition to offense is remarkable. From my limited viewings, I think his gap control is incredibly advance for someone his age, and his defensive game isn't bad as a result, although it could be better (I certainly wouldn't call the holes "massive"). I just wish he was 20 lbs heavier. And that his shot was better. And that he was more consistent from game to game but consistency will be achieved once some of the other skills develop.

I think if he can put it together, his floor could be a Sutter-era Bouwmeester. Great skating, good at almost everything else. A solid #3/4 puck mover. He has too many skills that are innate - and I think the things he's missing is easily stuff that can be worked on.

 

[InfinityIggy]

I love narrative of Andersson is a lazy hotdog eating loser, based on Treliving stating that Andersson needed to work on his conditioning if he wanted to turn pro.

 

[OvermanKingGainer]

Well this was a guy that was being mentioned right after McDavid and Eichel before the start of the 2014/15 season, not as good as those guys but right up there in the top five of the draft. What did scouts see before October of 2014 that caused them to think this?

Even as late as January, there were rankings that had him top ten. (link)

Sometimes teams can be too reactionary about perceived weaknesses that they forget the strengths. We've seen it with fallers often - Kopitar, Saad, Filip Forsberg. Even Jiri Hudler.

 

[Ace Rimmer]

I love narrative of Andersson is a lazy hotdog eating loser, based on Treliving stating that Andersson needed to work on his conditioning if he wanted to turn pro.

He did look like he was in much better shape this year compared to last year.

 

[Calculon]

Treliving's comment were fairly strong:

"It's a work in progress. Ras and I are going to have a little chit-chat tomorrow," said Treliving. "They're young guys and we all have kids and sometimes we have to tell and tell again. There are also times to be pros and do the right thing."

"You watch him out on the ice and he's got such a calmness with the puck, he moves it like a pro, but there's more to being a pro than just skating around the ice."

This should be a summer in which Andersson turns pro. He's old enough to be able to play in the AHL this season and on the ice, that would be the natural next step for him. I'm certain that will still be the outcome, but they want him to earn it.

"One of the things Ras is trying to do is get stronger. But you also have to be in good condition," said Treliving. "We're not in any position right now where we've got alarm bells running off, but it's time, if in fact you want to be a pro this year. There are certain expectations and we'll go through those again, and I really am confident that he'll show up in September looking the way that he should look."

This is possibly a situation where he'll end up learning the hard way. The AHL can be an eye-opener for many reasons.

"You hope that they get it," said the GM. "We try to warn them, and talk to them and tell them about it, and sometimes the best medicine is going through it. But Ras is a good kid and he wants to be a good player."

Andersson's talent is undeniable but there's really no excuse for showing up to his second development camp out of shape to such a degree, that the GM essentially calls him out

Anyway, more Kylington hype:

It was a good scrimmage for Oliver Kylington, who was very noticeable and in a good way. This kid's skating continues to wow whenever you see him. Two steps and he's gone -- either direction.

In one rush, I felt like I was experiencing a TJ Brodie flashback.

Darting over the attacking blueline went Kylington, making a slick move to dance past a defender for a dangerous chance on goal. Thinking he was trapped for sure, as the puck went back up ice the other direction, I looked to see who was covering for Kylington and lo and behold, Kylington was back there already. First in, first back, just like the Flames No. 7.

"I felt pretty good. I haven't been on the ice that much but it's always fun to be on the ice and play scrimmages," said Kylington, who was noticeably enjoying himself during the game.

While he said he learned a lot during the four days, it's the defensive details he picked up along the way from the many instructors that was most important.

"I feel more comfortable with my defensive game. I've been improving a lot of stuff in that part," he said. "Keep working on that and doing what I'm the best at and that's my offensive game."

Kylington will head home to Sweden in the next couple days. He will be there briefly before he heads to Spain to train for a couple weeks with his pal Johnny Oduya, who has a place there.

 

[Anglesmith]

Well, Treliving is really confident that he'll show up in camp in proper shape. Panic over!

 

[Lunatik]

I love narrative of Andersson is a lazy hotdog eating loser, based on Treliving stating that Andersson needed to work on his conditioning if he wanted to turn pro.

Most of my comments are in jest, but showing up for rookie camp out of shape is concerning. Without proper conditioning he won't be able to make it as a pro.

 

[MonyontheMoney]

I said it last year, and I'll say it again... I don't understand the Kylington hype. What do we know that NHL scouts don't? Through two rounds, NHL organizations didn't want him, and we know he's got some pretty massive holes in his defensive game. With 12 points in 47 games last year, it's not like we've got some rare-talent offensive scoring machine, either.

I haven't voted him yet, likely at 4 or 5, but that doesn't mean I don't like him a lot.

The majority of the attractiveness comes purely from the tools he possesses. At this point, his defensive game has improved substantially after just one professional year, as an 18 year-old nonetheless, as has his decision making from what I've seen last year and in development camp again. I am quite happy with the steps forward he has taken. His points are less of a concern for me, it's clear he has the mind/skills to put up numbers, but I'd rather he be sheltered and work on his defensive game like he was last year. Maybe this year he can be given a bigger role and with any luck he will put the whole package together, which IMO, there is a decent chance of happening.

 

[Johnny Hoxville]

I don't think there's any question that Kylington was a top 15 talent in his draft. His natural and athletic ability are elite, and if you know Kylington's story, a lot of the reason he fell in the draft was circumstantial. His coach wasn't using him in enough situations because he was playing pro as a boy, Oliver was frustrated because it was his draft year (hence his bad attitude lol), he changed teams a couple more times and then hurt once he finally started producing. We should be thanking our lucky stars that we got him at 60 when many wanted him at 15.

His holes were overblown. How many 17 year old offensive dman would struggle playing in a professional league against men? Instead of playing him lots to develop his game, the coach chose to limit his minutes so the team could win games and reduce errors made. Kylington is an elite athlete and has elite skills. He may never be Karlsson good (he may), but I actually think he's further along than Brodie was at the same age and I think he has better natural ability.

A lot will fall on him now, he needs to work for it. But he actually performed well above average for an 18 year old in the AHL, the Flames comments confirm this. There is a lot to love about this kid, he's somewhat still risky but if early indications mean anything, all signs look extremely promising.

 

[Dertell]

Shinkaruk again.

What do we know that NHL scouts don't?

Anything we may know. NHL scouts have been horrendous at identifying defensive talents in the earlier part of the draft.

With 12 points in 47 games last year, it's not like we've got some rare-talent offensive scoring machine, either.

Everyone's goal scoring upfront dried up in Stockton last year and obviously, that affected every defensemen's #. He was very good on the pp, moving + distributing the puck and more importantly, getting shots for (by my, admittedly, limited sample size for counting those).

 

[SKRusty]

Shinkaruk again.


Anything we may know. NHL scouts have been horrendous at identifying defensive talents in the earlier part of the draft.

Everyone's goal scoring upfront dried up in Stockton last year and obviously, that affected every defensemen's #. He was very good on the pp, moving + distributing the puck and more importantly, getting shots for (by my, admittedly, limited sample size for counting those).

Stockton was a mess last year and all of that is not Huska's doing. The team was relocated and many of the resources (Trainers, therapists, and so forth) were not in place early on. Things will be much better this year.

If Huska doesn't right the ship early this year expect changes.