Series Discussion: Flames - Jets (Flames Win 3-1)

Who wins?


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Mazatt

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Apr 30, 2019
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Kinda underrated how bad our botttom 6 is. Just like last season we have one line that can come alive to win a game and one line that teams just straight up don't have to worry about. Lucic - Ryan - Dube COULD take over a game but I wouldn't bet on it. Then whatever we cobble together for a foruth line won't do much of anything, calling back to the great 3rd line of Bennett - Jankowski - Neal in the days of old. Unsurprisingly this 4th line features 2 of those guys. Not having a great bottom 6 resonates throughout the lineup since there isn't even a game plan to shut down guys like Rieder, it's just exist against them. And that puts more pressure on our top guys in the playoffs because if we win it's because of them.

Of course things get clearer into training camp, say if Gaudreau and Monahan are clicking in scrimmages or what have you and Backlund is dynamic with Tkachuk, then you can have a defensive focus on the bottom lines but if not idk what chance the Flames have at winning without a top line scoring.
 

super6646

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Apr 16, 2018
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Calgary
Kinda underrated how bad our botttom 6 is. Just like last season we have one line that can come alive to win a game and one line that teams just straight up don't have to worry about. Lucic - Ryan - Dube COULD take over a game but I wouldn't bet on it. Then whatever we cobble together for a foruth line won't do much of anything, calling back to the great 3rd line of Bennett - Jankowski - Neal in the days of old. Unsurprisingly this 4th line features 2 of those guys. Not having a great bottom 6 resonates throughout the lineup since there isn't even a game plan to shut down guys like Rieder, it's just exist against them. And that puts more pressure on our top guys in the playoffs because if we win it's because of them.

Of course things get clearer into training camp, say if Gaudreau and Monahan are clicking in scrimmages or what have you and Backlund is dynamic with Tkachuk, then you can have a defensive focus on the bottom lines but if not idk what chance the Flames have at winning without a top line scoring.

This isn't talked about enough. Idk where the narrative is that we are deep, but our depth was trash this year. Ryan was the only consistent player in our bottom 6. Dube had flashes but hit a wall big time, Lucic had 2 even strength goals for an entire season, and our 4th line was a literal hole.
 

Mobiandi

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Jan 17, 2015
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Out of the 24 teams in this play-in, the Coyotes are the only team that might be worse than the Jets if we're being honest.
 

Flames Fanatic

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This isn't talked about enough. Idk where the narrative is that we are deep, but our depth was trash this year. Ryan was the only consistent player in our bottom 6. Dube had flashes but hit a wall big time, Lucic had 2 even strength goals for an entire season, and our 4th line was a literal hole.

Uh.... the Mangi-Ryan-Hathaway line/4th carried us for the last two months of the season last year. Unless you were calling the line Neal and Bennett was on the 4th line.
 
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Mazatt

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Apr 30, 2019
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Uh.... the Mangi-Ryan-Hathaway line/4th carried us for the last two months of the season last year. Unless you were calling the line Neal and Bennett was on the 4th line.
I think Super's talking about this season and how the idea we have a deep forward core isn't like last year since our bottom 6 this year can't score, and Mangi-Ryan-Hathaway were from last season.
 
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Fig

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Dec 15, 2014
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Out of the 24 teams in this play-in, the Coyotes are the only team that might be worse than the Jets if we're being honest.

The Jets were devastated by injuries this season and lost Buff. This break could have benefited them more than the average play in team, who knows what will happen. As long as you get to the dance, it's wide open.
 

super6646

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I think Super's talking about this season and how the idea we have a deep forward core isn't like last year since our bottom 6 this year can't score, and Mangi-Ryan-Hathaway were from last season.

This. I mean 7, 10, and 12 pts from the 4th line...

I mean just off of stats our bottom 6 was less effective at scoring than in 2017-18, and that says a lot considering how bad that was lol.
 
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Mazatt

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Apr 30, 2019
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You look at it, Bennett had 27 points last year, Jankowski had 32, Neal had 19, and Czarnik had 18. That's what I'd consider our third lines throughout last year with Czarnik replacing Neal due to injury. That's around 90 points combined. Our third line this year was Lucic, Ryan, and Dube (though there was a lot more fluctation that last year in terms of solidifying spots I can't go in and see exactly what everyone got when they were respectively on the third line) and they got 20, 29, and 16 points respectively. If we want to compare these two third lines we can find their pace over an 82 game season to get similar numbers.

Y1| Bennett ( 31) - Jankowski (33) - Neal (25 ) = 89 points over an entire season
Y2| Lucic ( 24) - Ryan ( 35) - Dube (29) = 88 points

So our third line wasn't the issue. Though I'd say that first year was more like a 4th line in terms of players, they were the "third line". So that's not where our issue lies this season. But on the other hand the third line last year was lambasted for lack of 5v5 play driving ability, yadda yadda, let's see what the fourth lines did.

Y1| Mangiapane (24) - Ryan (38) - Hathaway (21) = 83 points across 82 games
Y2| Bennett (19) - Jankowski (10) - Rieder/Rinaldo (17) = 46 points across 82 games

This is where the problem lies. First off, there is a lot of similarities in terms of Bennett and Jankwoski's lines being the worst percieved lines two years running. Then there is the topic of graduation/changes. The 4th line of last year is entirel split up. Mangiapane is on the second line now, Ryan is centring the third line, and Hathaway is out to Washington. Meanwhile Bennett sees a 12 point drop, Jankowski loses 23, and Hathaway to Rinaldo/Rieder combined is a 4 point loss.

I think the biggest difference between this and last year is the deployment of our players. Mangiapane and Ryan rightfully were moved up in the lineup, but Jankowski struggled and sunk the 4th line. Even last year Bennett and Jankowski didn't work together yet they were stuck together for another season and their play dropped off. I think this is emblamatic of a larger team issue with deployment. Lines that don't work together or pairings that don't work, i.e. Hanifin-Hamonic, and Bennett with Jankowski, aren't taken apart. Of course Jankowski losing the ability to play hockey hurts, but playing him for 54 games before sitting him and never trying to switch up having 1 good line in the bottom 6 kills us. All of our offense is coming from the top 6, and in a year where they struggled a bit, there's a lot of pressure to preform.

I would have liked to see trying Bennett, Lucic, and Ryan in varying spots. Like Bennett - Ryan - Dube on the third, or Lucic - Dube/Bennett on the third with Ryan once again trying to make those around him better. I dunno, but the committment to lines in the bottom 6 has to change.
 
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TychoFan

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Feb 24, 2013
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I can't get up for hockey after all this

Anybody feels the same?
I'm quite out of hockey at the moment, the season feels very distant, I feel like I have a hard time remembering everything that was going on. The bright side is that it means that if the Flames/other teams I usually follow lose early on, then I will continue to be indifferent and if they make the actual playoffs then my hype will probably come back strong.
 
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Deen

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Feb 19, 2010
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Yeah the season seems like a novelty at this point. I honestly have my eyes on the draft and hope we get a good pick. I still am pumped for Playoffs, but it's just not the same.
 
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Mobiandi

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Jan 17, 2015
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I think the bottom 6 is worthy of criticism but the bigger issue at hand is how little of this team's offense comes from our Dmen. That used to be our bread-and-butter

What happened
 

47

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Feb 23, 2014
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I think the bottom 6 is worthy of criticism but the bigger issue at hand is how little of this team's offense comes from our Dmen. That used to be our bread-and-butter

What happened

I think it came down to systems.

There was too many passes back and forth between the dmen before they would move the puck up the ice. The opposing team would have time to get everyone into defensive positions and then the Flames would chip it in or try setting things up at the line.

They weren’t the team that moved the puck up quickly and scored off the rush like they were the year prior.
 

Kahvi

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I can't get up for hockey after all this

Anybody feels the same?

Same here. Might change after I get to watch the first game. But I'm still a bit skeptical that the playoffs happen, a lot can change
 
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Mazatt

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Apr 30, 2019
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Flames are just straight up a team of good individual players that don't have matching playstyles imo. They lack identity. Last season I think about the amount of times someone would get sprung on a breakway and find a creative way to score with confidence, now it's just Gaudreau gets sprung and tries backhand-fivehole. The Flames seemed like they slowed the game down they used to play and that's negatively impacted the team. They sit back and let the game come to them now. Chip and chase gets attacked here often but we have the players in our bottom 6 to pull it off. We have the guys in there to institute a heavy forecheck, but we don't pressure D enough. Legit, Bennett/Lucic have speed and can throw the body around. Forces the d-man to make a move. Follow up speedy forward in Dube/Ryan/Rieder gets where the Flames are trying to force the puck while the opposite winger stays high and is open for a pass or can pressure the puck carrier if their able to get it past the first two checks. Get that identity and it's hard to play against, instead we have Bennett will hit but not get puck, Rieder stays between puck carrier and pass option 1 following hit, puck is passed and bam it's in the zone.

In the offensive zone there is just so little movement. I look at the second line with Tkachuk - Backlund - Mangiapane and they're guys that will move it around and sneak around behind defences during the confusion. It's what the Mangi - Ryan - Hath line did last year. Move the puck around in the corners with speed, then find an open guy with a good shot (Hath had a low-key good one timer and Mang has a great shot) and bam, they could contribute. That's where the top line fails imo. They're predictable and get beat, but also their biggest strenght is on the rush which our d-core isn't conrtibuting to. They won't cycle but if they can build up speed in the netural zone then that causes the confusing for the other team and allows Monahan drive the slot, and get open in traffic. Another issue with that line is once they're in on the rush there is no spacing available for Gaudreau. In the past he was able to dangle around the D but now they expect it and there's no potential space-creating power guy that he can pass the puck to that allows him to slide in unnoticed. Lindholm could do that but he's on the opposite side of the ice normally and that pass is ripe for pick-offs, and I don't know how good he is at creating space.


I think the bottom 6 is worthy of criticism but the bigger issue at hand is how little of this team's offense comes from our Dmen. That used to be our bread-and-butter

What happened
Part of why I wrote all that up there is cause of this, and I think why is because of that stagnant offence that doesn't create openings for the D to do anything once in the zone. Because of the lack of movement shot lanes are clogged and shots are blocked/deflected away. If the offense was fluid and the D were constantly walking the line we could get a ton more shots through. Like, Hanifin has a good strength slap shot but he either walks in along the boards and muffins it with a wrister or stays at the line and gets blocked.
 

JPeeper

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Jan 4, 2015
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I think the bottom 6 is worthy of criticism but the bigger issue at hand is how little of this team's offense comes from our Dmen. That used to be our bread-and-butter

What happened

We went from Russel-Wideman to Hanifin-Hamonic. While both are complete trash fires in their own zone, at least Russel and Wideman put up points. Gio also got older and forgot that to score goals you have to not hit the opposing teams shin pads every shot.

We have the potential to put up massive points from the back end if our coaching wasn't totally incompetent and worth a damn. Gio, Brodie, Hanifin, Ras, Kylington all offensive guys, yet Hanifin is saddled with useless Hamonic tanking his game, Kylington barely plays because our organization is full of morons, Ras was on the 3rd line for most of the year because again are organization is run by monkeys and Gio's offensive game fell off a cliff.

No need to make a long statement about our bottom 6, it's useless and has been for a decade now outside of 2 seasons. Jankowski isn't the answer.
 

super6646

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Apr 16, 2018
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Flames are just straight up a team of good individual players that don't have matching playstyles imo. They lack identity. Last season I think about the amount of times someone would get sprung on a breakway and find a creative way to score with confidence, now it's just Gaudreau gets sprung and tries backhand-fivehole. The Flames seemed like they slowed the game down they used to play and that's negatively impacted the team. They sit back and let the game come to them now. Chip and chase gets attacked here often but we have the players in our bottom 6 to pull it off. We have the guys in there to institute a heavy forecheck, but we don't pressure D enough. Legit, Bennett/Lucic have speed and can throw the body around. Forces the d-man to make a move. Follow up speedy forward in Dube/Ryan/Rieder gets where the Flames are trying to force the puck while the opposite winger stays high and is open for a pass or can pressure the puck carrier if their able to get it past the first two checks. Get that identity and it's hard to play against, instead we have Bennett will hit but not get puck, Rieder stays between puck carrier and pass option 1 following hit, puck is passed and bam it's in the zone.

In the offensive zone there is just so little movement. I look at the second line with Tkachuk - Backlund - Mangiapane and they're guys that will move it around and sneak around behind defences during the confusion. It's what the Mangi - Ryan - Hath line did last year. Move the puck around in the corners with speed, then find an open guy with a good shot (Hath had a low-key good one timer and Mang has a great shot) and bam, they could contribute. That's where the top line fails imo. They're predictable and get beat, but also their biggest strenght is on the rush which our d-core isn't conrtibuting to. They won't cycle but if they can build up speed in the netural zone then that causes the confusing for the other team and allows Monahan drive the slot, and get open in traffic. Another issue with that line is once they're in on the rush there is no spacing available for Gaudreau. In the past he was able to dangle around the D but now they expect it and there's no potential space-creating power guy that he can pass the puck to that allows him to slide in unnoticed. Lindholm could do that but he's on the opposite side of the ice normally and that pass is ripe for pick-offs, and I don't know how good he is at creating space.



Part of why I wrote all that up there is cause of this, and I think why is because of that stagnant offence that doesn't create openings for the D to do anything once in the zone. Because of the lack of movement shot lanes are clogged and shots are blocked/deflected away. If the offense was fluid and the D were constantly walking the line we could get a ton more shots through. Like, Hanifin has a good strength slap shot but he either walks in along the boards and muffins it with a wrister or stays at the line and gets blocked.

Geoff ward himself has said he wants this team to be a checking team that can score...

Horrible playstyle for our top line. Like Monahan had a ton of hits this year... and yet we can say for certain this was his worst season since year 1. Same with Johnny.

The flip flopping with what this team is says something. Idk wtf brad wants to do, but it’s a boring team that is mediocre... again! Like I mean chip and grind hockey sounds like a 2011 bruins/2012 la kings sort of thing. With the roster we have, it doesn’t seem like a fit at all.
 

super6646

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Apr 16, 2018
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We went from Russel-Wideman to Hanifin-Hamonic. While both are complete trash fires in their own zone, at least Russel and Wideman put up points. Gio also got older and forgot that to score goals you have to not hit the opposing teams shin pads every shot.

We have the potential to put up massive points from the back end if our coaching wasn't totally incompetent and worth a damn. Gio, Brodie, Hanifin, Ras, Kylington all offensive guys, yet Hanifin is saddled with useless Hamonic tanking his game, Kylington barely plays because our organization is full of morons, Ras was on the 3rd line for most of the year because again are organization is run by monkeys and Gio's offensive game fell off a cliff.

No need to make a long statement about our bottom 6, it's useless and has been for a decade now outside of 2 seasons. Jankowski isn't the answer.

I’d say Giordano is still effective and the team just doesn’t have the scoring touch it once had (though I think it’s time to make Andy the pp qb). Otherwise though, I can’t disagree much. The bottom half of our roster is consistently overpaid and consistently not producing. Lucic was a regular 3rd liner making 5.25 million to produce 2 esg... Bennett and jankowski have 0 offence... etc etc. Like honestly Toby Rieder was probably just as effective and made league min ffs.

And if Hanifin-hamonic are back I’ll sacrifice some drywall at that point because ward is just a Pejorative Slured old man if he sees them as passable at this point.
 

Fig

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Dec 15, 2014
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Same here. Might change after I get to watch the first game. But I'm still a bit skeptical that the playoffs happen, a lot can change

I'm the opposite. I feel like I'll ignore the first few games and view highlights only. Then I might watch the later games once the players have their legs under them.
 

Iggys Dome

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Flames are just straight up a team of good individual players that don't have matching playstyles imo. They lack identity. Last season I think about the amount of times someone would get sprung on a breakway and find a creative way to score with confidence, now it's just Gaudreau gets sprung and tries backhand-fivehole. The Flames seemed like they slowed the game down they used to play and that's negatively impacted the team. They sit back and let the game come to them now. Chip and chase gets attacked here often but we have the players in our bottom 6 to pull it off. We have the guys in there to institute a heavy forecheck, but we don't pressure D enough. Legit, Bennett/Lucic have speed and can throw the body around. Forces the d-man to make a move. Follow up speedy forward in Dube/Ryan/Rieder gets where the Flames are trying to force the puck while the opposite winger stays high and is open for a pass or can pressure the puck carrier if their able to get it past the first two checks. Get that identity and it's hard to play against, instead we have Bennett will hit but not get puck, Rieder stays between puck carrier and pass option 1 following hit, puck is passed and bam it's in the zone.

In the offensive zone there is just so little movement. I look at the second line with Tkachuk - Backlund - Mangiapane and they're guys that will move it around and sneak around behind defences during the confusion. It's what the Mangi - Ryan - Hath line did last year. Move the puck around in the corners with speed, then find an open guy with a good shot (Hath had a low-key good one timer and Mang has a great shot) and bam, they could contribute. That's where the top line fails imo. They're predictable and get beat, but also their biggest strenght is on the rush which our d-core isn't conrtibuting to. They won't cycle but if they can build up speed in the netural zone then that causes the confusing for the other team and allows Monahan drive the slot, and get open in traffic. Another issue with that line is once they're in on the rush there is no spacing available for Gaudreau. In the past he was able to dangle around the D but now they expect it and there's no potential space-creating power guy that he can pass the puck to that allows him to slide in unnoticed. Lindholm could do that but he's on the opposite side of the ice normally and that pass is ripe for pick-offs, and I don't know how good he is at creating space.



Part of why I wrote all that up there is cause of this, and I think why is because of that stagnant offence that doesn't create openings for the D to do anything once in the zone. Because of the lack of movement shot lanes are clogged and shots are blocked/deflected away. If the offense was fluid and the D were constantly walking the line we could get a ton more shots through. Like, Hanifin has a good strength slap shot but he either walks in along the boards and muffins it with a wrister or stays at the line and gets blocked.

This is where a coach like Gallant could come in and give this team exactly what they’ve been lacking since 2010, identity.
 
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Fig

Absolute Horse Shirt
Dec 15, 2014
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If Gallant would like to take on a salary of 100k and a lifetime supply of Boston Pizza then management would consider it

EDIT: NVM, made a mistake. Somehow thought Treliving was also involved with Mr Lube.
 

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