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Boomstick

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Oct 29, 2003
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Brad is a top 10 GM.

Trades a first away to get rid of Monahan and signs Kadri to that anchor. And pretty much everyone in the fanbase loved it.

I was dead wrong about Huberdeau to be fair, but idk how tf that move got so much praise.
Definitely not impressed with either guys. Huberdeau had a pedigree and 115 points last year, how could you not be excited. He's doing so little I don't even notice him on the ice anymore. So disappointed, but yeah I was excited, thought we won that trade. Our problem with his next 8 years is having no idea what we're doing in the GM position. Obviously have to build around Huberdeau and Kadri moving forward. There's been no chemistry since day 1 with anyone. If I'm Lindholm I'm probably not signing long term with Calgary his game has fallen off. We're in for a rough ride and quite quickly. Coach in question, GM in question, I honestly have no idea what to do. If I'm Sutter, I just don't make lines, I keep them in the blender for the rest of the season. No lines have been good at all for the most part, just keep mixing it up, maybe you'll stumble on something. Ruzicka needs to be off the 4th line in my opinion.
Like I said earlier tonight, it's just not our year. Only thing missing is a goalie goal on us and if we keep trailing in the 3rd, I can see that happening.
 

Dack

Registered User
Jun 16, 2014
3,916
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Getting rid of Sutter would likely help Huberdeau but I think the net impact would be negative. I think the majority of this team looks better than they are due to the system we play. The defense has so much support on the back check, the forecheck is ridiculously stifling and their breakout is very strong. There's always an open man.


A lot of Flames fans seem to think Sutter's systems are antiquated but I think he's got a very strong grasp on systems. We could argue it stifles talent and maybe it does but I think the biggee issue is that Brad Treliving has assembled the most mid team known to man. There's like 2 teams in the NHL with less puck skills and they're tanking.




 

super6646

Registered User
Apr 16, 2018
17,909
15,768
Calgary
Getting rid of Sutter would likely help Huberdeau but I think the net impact would be negative. I think the majority of this team looks better than they are due to the system we play. The defense has so much support on the back check, the forecheck is ridiculously stifling and their breakout is very strong. There's always an open man.


A lot of Flames fans seem to think Sutter's systems are antiquated but I think he's got a very strong grasp on systems. We could argue it stifles talent and maybe it does but I think the biggee issue is that Brad Treliving has assembled the most mid team known to man. There's like 2 teams in the NHL with less puck skills and they're tanking.





I have a hard time believing that. Also not hard to have a strong breakout when you have Weegar and Andersson and co. who do that as their bread and butter.

The overall rush game is garbage. Ward level at this point. And the amount of shots they take from well out is very very noticeable. Grind along the boards and shoot from the point, awesome system. Trevor Lewis is probably the epitome of this (how ironic), at least 2 or 3 times a game he gets a shot off from outside the blue line to the goalie that might have a 1/500 shot of going in.


Flames had 70% possession yet their xGF% was just 54%. Says a lot imo.
 

BRobMint

Formerly known as Hockey Ninja
Apr 24, 2013
2,912
3,750
Cleveland, OH (Grew up in Calgary)
Bad game aside, I enjoyed my time at Little Ceasers arena. It’s a nice building:
 

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Jan 29, 2009
4,647
1,903
Edmonton/Calgary
Win the next 3 winnable games and all is good. I think Buffalo is better then us however but just play in the harder conference/division... No words for this team. Offense is horrible and boring and then any game we do score we have huge D breakdowns or turnovers that cause odd man rushes teams always score on.

I still feel something is just not clicking. There is talent on the team, but it's just not working.
 

Dack

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Jun 16, 2014
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I have a hard time believing that. Also not hard to have a strong breakout when you have Weegar and Andersson and co. who do that as their bread and butter.



The overall rush game is garbage. Ward level at this point. And the amount of shots they take from well out is very very noticeable. Grind along the boards and shoot from the point, awesome system. Trevor Lewis is probably the epitome of this (how ironic), at least 2 or 3 times a game he gets a shot off from outside the blue line to the goalie that might have a 1/500 shot of going in.






Flames had 70% possession yet their xGF% was just 54%. Says a lot imo.

This is really long and this website is now buggy as hell for me on my phone so it's very difficult to reply.

IMO

The Flames have a team full of complementary players. If you had a 1C and a 1D in addition to the players the Flames have you would be laughing. We'd be up there for best team in the league. We don't though.

The team struggles with Zone entries? I think that's because they literally have 2 forwards I'd consider above NHL average at carrying the puck (Kadri and Backlund). They relied on Gaudreau to do this forever and now he's gone and they're seeing that hole. They thought Huberdeau filled it but he's very clearly a guy who needs people to make space for him to be effective with the puck. Essentially he can create with the puck on his stick but only with his linemates being threatening enough in their own right to let people give him time and space. This is fine (not for 10.5 mill but that's another story) in itself but the issue comes from the fact that basically every forward on this team needs someone to make space for them.

The issue is this applies to just about every offensive player on the Flames. Lindholm and Toffoli both excel with room to shoot, lindholm can pass when the play breaks down too. Thats half of our top 6 right there and none of them drive play.

5/6 of our legit top 6 forwards who don't drive their line and need space made for them. Mangiapane is usually a big time contributer despite not being super synaptic because he's such a buzzsaw and creates so many chances but he's having an awful year.

Kadri lacks high end vision to be a 1C.

The rest of the players are TWF or grinders with varying levels of skill (not saying they're bad). I love Backlund and Pelletier but I don't think they're expected to put up huge points. These guys are probably overperforming under Sutter where their offense is created off of volume rather than skill plays. I can't imagine another coach getting more put of Mangiapane-Backlund-Coleman or Lewis or Ritchie.



That being said, I totally agree that the offense gets better away from Sutter. But I don't think their ceiling is that high even without him because of the way our "star" players play. Plus, I think Sutter makes this team look much better defensively than they are.

The breakouts aren't a personal IMO, even when Zadorov or stone is starting it up theres always swinging at the correct time wingers in a good spot to recieve a pass etc. Watch Detroit struggle to bring it up the ice all game with Calgary repeatedly getting easy breakouts. Sutter's breakout emphasizes puck support which makes it much easier to move the puck up ice but at the cost of rush speed.

They don't generate much off the rush but would they generate much even with the leash off as a team that lacks the ability to carry the puck so much? I'm doubtful.
 

super6646

Registered User
Apr 16, 2018
17,909
15,768
Calgary
This is really long and this website is now buggy as hell for me on my phone so it's very difficult to reply.

IMO

The Flames have a team full of complementary players. If you had a 1C and a 1D in addition to the players the Flames have you would be laughing. We'd be up there for best team in the league. We don't though.

The team struggles with Zone entries? I think that's because they literally have 2 forwards I'd consider above NHL average at carrying the puck (Kadri and Backlund). They relied on Gaudreau to do this forever and now he's gone and they're seeing that hole. They thought Huberdeau filled it but he's very clearly a guy who needs people to make space for him to be effective with the puck. Essentially he can create with the puck on his stick but only with his linemates being threatening enough in their own right to let people give him time and space. This is fine (not for 10.5 mill but that's another story) in itself but the issue comes from the fact that basically every forward on this team needs someone to make space for them.

The issue is this applies to just about every offensive player on the Flames. Lindholm and Toffoli both excel with room to shoot, lindholm can pass when the play breaks down too. Thats half of our top 6 right there and none of them drive play.

5/6 of our legit top 6 forwards who don't drive their line and need space made for them. Mangiapane is usually a big time contributer despite not being super synaptic because he's such a buzzsaw and creates so many chances but he's having an awful year.

Kadri lacks high end vision to be a 1C.

The rest of the players are TWF or grinders with varying levels of skill (not saying they're bad). I love Backlund and Pelletier but I don't think they're expected to put up huge points. These guys are probably overperforming under Sutter where their offense is created off of volume rather than skill plays. I can't imagine another coach getting more put of Mangiapane-Backlund-Coleman or Lewis or Ritchie.



That being said, I totally agree that the offense gets better away from Sutter. But I don't think their ceiling is that high even without him because of the way our "star" players play. Plus, I think Sutter makes this team look much better defensively than they are.

The breakouts aren't a personal IMO, even when Zadorov or stone is starting it up theres always swinging at the correct time wingers in a good spot to recieve a pass etc. Watch Detroit struggle to bring it up the ice all game with Calgary repeatedly getting easy breakouts. Sutter's breakout emphasizes puck support which makes it much easier to move the puck up ice but at the cost of rush speed.

They don't generate much off the rush but would they generate much even with the leash off as a team that lacks the ability to carry the puck so much? I'm doubtful.

Dube/Pelletier are also pretty good at that regard. Mangiapane is passable at it. It’s not as if this lineup has 12 tyler tofolli’s.

Huberdeau was never a puck carrying winger… 5 minutes of highlights is all you need to see that. If our staff couldn’t figure that out… woooeeeeee.

I mean this team has good players that have taken a step back. How can you explain Weegar’s fall off and reluctance to carry the puck? He was doing it far more often to start the year and in Florida, now he just forgot? I agree certain players on this team really expose a lack of team speed, but I have a hard time believing (or maybe I’m just delusional) the loss of Gaudreau destroys our rush game like that.

Also Ik this isn’t relevant to your point, but how many teams in 2023 play man to man defensive coverage? Could explain why when we have breakdowns they “look” disastrous.
 

joescores

Registered User
Mar 21, 2011
2,168
1,463
Anchors everywhere

Dube/Pelletier are also pretty good at that regard. Mangiapane is passable at it. It’s not as if this lineup has 12 tyler tofolli’s.

Huberdeau was never a puck carrying winger… 5 minutes of highlights is all you need to see that. If our staff couldn’t figure that out… woooeeeeee.

I mean this team has good players that have taken a step back. How can you explain Weegar’s fall off and reluctance to carry the puck? He was doing it far more often to start the year and in Florida, now he just forgot? I agree certain players on this team really expose a lack of team speed, but I have a hard time believing (or maybe I’m just delusional) the loss of Gaudreau destroys our rush game like that.

Also Ik this isn’t relevant to your point, but how many teams in 2023 play man to man defensive coverage? Could explain why when we have breakdowns they “look” disastrous.
Give likes to others mate when they speak the truth and we will like your views in return;-)
 
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Dack

Registered User
Jun 16, 2014
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Dube/Pelletier are also pretty good at that regard. Mangiapane is passable at it. It’s not as if this lineup has 12 tyler tofolli’s.

Huberdeau was never a puck carrying winger… 5 minutes of highlights is all you need to see that. If our staff couldn’t figure that out… woooeeeeee.

I mean this team has good players that have taken a step back. How can you explain Weegar’s fall off and reluctance to carry the puck? He was doing it far more often to start the year and in Florida, now he just forgot? I agree certain players on this team really expose a lack of team speed, but I have a hard time believing (or maybe I’m just delusional) the loss of Gaudreau destroys our rush game like that.

Also Ik this isn’t relevant to your point, but how many teams in 2023 play man to man defensive coverage? Could explain why when we have breakdowns they “look” disastrous.
Dube and Pelletier are fine at it but both are firmly middle 6 guys. It's more of a strength for Dube IMO but the issue is that we shouldn't have just 4 guys who can actually do it with any efficacy. I think most good NHL teams have multiple players on each line who are good transition players and non-puck carriers can be good NZ players too. Guys like Kucherov aren't super fast or dynamic puck carriers but he's so smart and skilled as a passer that he helps open up space for the guys who are.

We have good players but I think we mostly have complimentary players. Very few guys on this team can drive a line and I think that's pretty clear when we watch them play. Their forecheck allows them to stifle some teams, forcing turnovers to create mismatches and chances. When they're tied/leading they look okay but they're completely unable to come back in games because they're not a very dynamic or skilled team.

I don't think it's that they didn't know Huberdeau wasn't a strong puck carrier, more that they didn't realize how big of an impact replacing Gaudreau with yet another guy who can't slice through the neutral zone would be. Which is funny because Volica mentioned multiple times that Gaudreau's camp insisted on the Flames finding another puck carrier to help take some pressure off of Gaudreau when negotiation were still happening.

Weegar is one I'd like to see the leash come off of for a bit but it's not like he's not allowed to skate the puck, Andersson, Hanifin and Zadorov all do it fairly often. I wonder if he'd be more comfortable doing so if the team had more skating ability to get back if a mistake was made.

It's been my opinion that having Gaudreau has been papering over massive roster issues with the team for years. He's consistently been a top 3 player in the NZ since he got into the NHL, obviously he's not nearly on the same level of player but us losing him is similar to the Oilers losing McDavid.

I do think Sutter's system slows down the top end a bit but they're also just a very slow team in an NHL that's just getting faster. I think ditching Sutter would likely give a "new coach bump" but longterm wouldn't result in much meaningful change. The ideal thing would be to clean house and do a mini re-tool and see if you can salvage anything from our "window". I'd obviously prefer a scorched earth rebuild but that's not realistic anymore. They missed that chance.
 

Some Other Flame

Registered User
Dec 4, 2010
7,450
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I don't think it's that they didn't know Huberdeau wasn't a strong puck carrier, more that they didn't realize how big of an impact replacing Gaudreau with yet another guy who can't slice through the neutral zone would be. Which is funny because Volica mentioned multiple times that Gaudreau's camp insisted on the Flames finding another puck carrier to help take some pressure off of Gaudreau when negotiation were still happening.

Weegar is one I'd like to see the leash come off of for a bit but it's not like he's not allowed to skate the puck, Andersson, Hanifin and Zadorov all do it fairly often. I wonder if he'd be more comfortable doing so if the team had more skating ability to get back if a mistake was made.
Flames losing their two best transition players in Gaudreau and Kylington certainly hurts but it's up to coaching to adapt and make use of what is available to them. In other words, utilize Weegar given his natural skill set and talents. Or give Phillips a fair chance given that he's actually capable of carrying the puck up the ice too.

Instead, Darryl's neutered Weegar just like how his brother neutered Bouwmeester. Buried Phillips after a paltry 18 minuets of ice time.

There's plenty of skill on the team. The coach is just not using it.
 

Yepthatsme

Registered User
Oct 25, 2020
1,457
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Dube/Pelletier are also pretty good at that regard. Mangiapane is passable at it. It’s not as if this lineup has 12 tyler tofolli’s.

Huberdeau was never a puck carrying winger… 5 minutes of highlights is all you need to see that. If our staff couldn’t figure that out… woooeeeeee.

I mean this team has good players that have taken a step back. How can you explain Weegar’s fall off and reluctance to carry the puck? He was doing it far more often to start the year and in Florida, now he just forgot? I agree certain players on this team really expose a lack of team speed, but I have a hard time believing (or maybe I’m just delusional) the loss of Gaudreau destroys our rush game like that.

Also Ik this isn’t relevant to your point, but how many teams in 2023 play man to man defensive coverage? Could explain why when we have breakdowns they “look” disastrous.
Man to man defense relies super heavily on team chemistry, ironically more than zone coverage because of switches. Wouldn’t be surprised at all if our breakdowns start disappearing next year as players have a year of familiarity with eachother. Kylington was a big loss, but Weegar is much better defensively than he was. A lot of the grade A chances we give up are due to poor centre-winger or centre-defense coverage issues.

Man to man coverage isn’t a problem. It worked remarkably well last season, it’s just team chemistry that’s an issue after the off season overhaul. We gained two stout defensive players and lost one over the off-season, that alone should tell you our defensive problems should disappear as our team gels more and more. The name value of players brought in blinded me and a bunch of other fans to the fact that we’d have 3 new forward lines and 2 new D-pairs going into this season, the pundits were right about the team having chemistry issues, even our powerplay has been overhauled over the last 3 games and our forward lines are still being tinkered with.

Still believe the potential for this roster is sky high. We are seeing career worst years from around 4 high end players, and have some mind numbing bad puck luck this season, yet are still in the hunt. We could be a threat in the playoffs if we heat up, but next season has loads of potential with some cheap reinforcements inbound.
 

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