OT: Fitness and Nutrition Part V

[Mike Mike Caron]

To start.
1) List the animal protein sources.
2) List the quantities.
3) Provide the questions asked to participants and the frequency at which those were answered.

That would be the questions I'd ask too. But still we can't just wash away the conclusions of the study. I know I'll look into it.

You know were the slur pea soup comes from? English people did not understand how French lumberjacks could be so damn strong while mainly eating beans. My grand uncles were lumberjacks, they could bend nails with their thumbs, I'm pretty they didn't eat meat every day.

So I'm not closed minded about it, it's just that science has been on meat eaters side so far.

 

[Mrb1p]

So unless they compose a study that is completely impossible to execute, you are going to keep your head in the sand. Gotcha.

You do realize how skewed the results can be, right ?

 

[DramaticGloveSave]

I think we can just dial it back a bit... It's fine that you're a vegan man, you're doing something great for animals. Its humane, it's noble and really I wish i had the conviction to do it.

With all that said, it still doesn't mean it's the ultimate choice in diet health wise and ecologically.

I just think that what Kriss is trying to get accross to you, is that you're views are skewed towards veganism and you're dismissing anything that goes against it, wether it's valid or not. Basically, you're bringing up anything you can bring up for the sake of your argument, and instead of making you look good, it makes you look incredibly biased. Reading a paper's abstract and conclusion isn't enough to draw your own conclusion from it, even if it's from Harvard.

I have conceded points, though when I do, they get ignored. I've already definitively stated that if you're vegan you have to be more mindful of certain things you can take for granted if you eat animal products.

But on the other side of the coin, removing animal products is going to reduce your risk factor for numerous cancers, heart disease, stroke, and diabetes. That's what the science says.

 

[Kriss E]

So unless they compose a study that is completely impossible to execute, you are going to keep your head in the sand. Gotcha.

Again, you're the only one that has proven to be completely biased here.
1) I have said people can be perfectly healthy as vegans.
2) I have said there are athletes that are vegans and doing fine.
3) I acknowledged and agreed that meat is over consumed.
4) I agree that factory farming is bad.
5) I agree that a processed meat is not healthy.

Anything that ever counters your points you resort to lame and petty comebacks.
I mean, it should pretty much go without saying that studies need to discuss the quality of animal proteins used.

It would be creating a study claiming that vegetables aren't really all that nutritious but leaving out the fact the only vegetable consumed onions and radishes. That would be quite a flawed study with a terrible conclusion.
Can't believe you have a hard time even admitting this flaw.

 

[Mrb1p]

That would be the questions I'd ask too. But still we can't just wash away the conclusions of the study. I know I'll look into it.

You know were the slur pea soup comes from? English people did not understand how French lumberjacks could be so damn strong while mainly eating beans. My grand uncles were lumberjacks, they could bend nails with their thumbs, I'm pretty they didn't eat meat every day.

So I'm not closed minded about it, it's just that science has been on meat eaters side so far.

Science has been on the low-fat, high carbs for way too long.

The main problem I have with non-meat eating diets is that you just get ratios of carbs to proteins that are just ridiculously bad. Main reason why there's no real strength based sports competitior that use a vegan based diet.

 

[Kriss E]

That would be the questions I'd ask too. But still we can't just wash away the conclusions of the study. I know I'll look into it.

You know were the slur pea soup comes from? English people did not understand how French lumberjacks could be so damn strong while mainly eating beans. My grand uncles were lumberjacks, they could bend nails with their thumbs, I'm pretty they didn't eat meat every day.

So I'm not closed minded about it, it's just that science has been on meat eaters side so far.

I never claimed that one cannot be healthy or strong being vegan.
My point has always been that there is a massive difference between eating less meat, which I would agree people should do, and demonizing it to a point where it should be eliminated entirely.

 

[Kriss E]

Science has been on the low-fat, high carbs for way too long.

The main problem I have with non-meat eating diets is that you just get ratios of carbs to proteins that are just ridiculously bad. Main reason why there's no real strength based sports competitior that use a vegan based diet.

Kendrick Farris is a vegan.
I think you can be a vegan and be a strong competitive athlete, you just need to be more mindful of supplementation.

 

[Mrb1p]

I have conceded points, though when I do, they get ignored. I've already definitively stated that if you're vegan you have to be more mindful of certain things you can take for granted if you eat animal products.

But on the other side of the coin, removing animal products is going to reduce your risk factor for numerous cancers, heart disease, stroke, and diabetes. That's what the science says.

... Jesus, I feel like banging my head through the wall whenever I read you.

 

[DramaticGloveSave]

Again, you're the only one that has proven to be completely biased here.
1) I have said people can be perfectly healthy as vegans.
2) I have said there are athletes that are vegans and doing fine.
3) I acknowledged and agreed that meat is over consumed.
4) I agree that factory farming is bad.
5) I agree that a processed meat is not healthy.

Anything that ever counters your points you resort to lame and petty comebacks.
I mean, it should pretty much go without saying that studies need to discuss the quality of animal proteins used.

It would be creating a study claiming that vegetables aren't really all that nutritious but leaving out the fact the only vegetable consumed onions and radishes. That would be quite a flawed study with a terrible conclusion.
Can't believe you have a hard time even admitting this flaw.

I think you are forgetting the genesis of this discussion. This discussion began with folks calling out vegan diets, trying to "trigger" me. I'm not the one attacking meat eaters here, I'm simply defending my position which came under attack.

 

[Mrb1p]

Kendrick Farris is a vegan.
I think you can be a vegan and be a strong competitive athlete, you just need to be more mindful of supplementation.

Yeah, at this level, I agree, but how about getting there ? Have you ever heard of that ?

Ilya Illyin doesn't eat meat either, but he does eat a whole lotta trenbolone sandwiches.

 

[Mike Mike Caron]

Science has been on the low-fat, high carbs for way too long.

The main problem I have with non-meat eating diets is that you just get ratios of carbs to proteins that are just ridiculously bad. Main reason why there's no real strength based sports competitior that use a vegan based diet.

I think the science is going high everything now

 

[DramaticGloveSave]

Yeah, at this level, I agree, but how about getting there ? Have you ever heard of that ?

Ilya Illyin doesn't eat meat either, but he does eat a whole lotta trenbolone sandwiches.

There are quite a few vegan strength monsters out there... World Record holder (yoke walk) Patrick Baboumian for example (who broke the record after years as a vegan)

In terms of people being vegan from birth and having success, there simply is not a lot of people who've been vegan since birth as veganism is a thing that really has only caught on in the last half dozen years. Jehina Malik has been vegan since birth though, and she's one of the most impressive female bodybuilders on the planet.

 

[Kriss E]

I think you are forgetting the genesis of this discussion. This discussion began with folks calling out vegan diets, trying to "trigger" me. I'm not the one attacking meat eaters here, I'm simply defending my position which came under attack.

That was one poster, not me, and the discussion has evolved since.
And just because some one poster tried to trigger you doesn't make you posting this study and refusing to see any of the obvious flaws in it okay.

That was a bad study. Admitting that does not mean being a vegan is bad.

 

[Kriss E]

Yeah, at this level, I agree, but how about getting there ? Have you ever heard of that ?

Ilya Illyin doesn't eat meat either, but he does eat a whole lotta trenbolone sandwiches.

I think that's because veganism is rather new. We won't know the longer term effects until later, so time will tell.
I see no problem with it though assuming whoever does it will be hitting macros and micros well, not eating chips and fried tofu.

 

[DramaticGloveSave]

That was one poster, not me, and the discussion has evolved since.
And just because some one poster tried to trigger you doesn't make you posting this study and refusing to see any of the obvious flaws in it okay.

That was a bad study. Admitting that does not mean being a vegan is bad.

If that study was flawed, every study is flawed. The only way you can monitor everything that every participant eats, would be to have the study on a much smaller scale. And guess what? Having the study on a smaller scale would make the study flawed too, since it would be a small sample size...

We can only work with the studies we have, and that study is one of the best if not the best.

 

[Kriss E]

If that study was flawed, every study is flawed. The only way you can monitor everything that every participant eats, would be to have the study on a much smaller scale. And guess what? Having the study on a smaller scale would make the study flawed too, since it would be a small sample size...

We can only work with the studies we have, and that study is one of the best if not the best.

There is no ''IF'', the study is flawed. This isn't up for debate.
And yes, it is obviously, undeniably and extremely important to know exactly what people put into their body before making definitive conclusions.

It really feels like you are just arguing for the sake of it at this point because you simply do not want to admit the study you brought up is flawed, therefore making its conclusion and your point irrelevant.

 

[OldCraig71]

Mostly, yes.

I should start wearin my 1.75s to the gym, it might work.

 

[Andrei79]

There is no ''IF'', the study is flawed. This isn't up for debate.
And yes, it is obviously, undeniably and extremely important to know exactly what people put into their body before making definitive conclusions.

It really feels like you are just arguing for the sake of it at this point because you simply do not want to admit the study you brought up is flawed, therefore making its conclusion and your point irrelevant.

It's flawed in the same sense every study in existence is flawed.

It's not a bad study at all. It's a very well done one. Considering the number of participants and the length of it, it's rather impressive what they've done. It's why it managed to get published in the JAMA internal medecine journal, which is a feat in itself.

And, they actually did take into account diet considerations such as the quality of the meat (processed vs unprocessed), quantities, amount of fruit, vegetables, etc (what you were criticizing it for). They controlled for an impressive amount of confounders.

That said, the conclusion of the study IS *drumroll*

There's basically no difference between a vegan lifestyle and a healthy omnivore lifestyle.

So, @DramaticGloveSave , you should have read that study before using it as an argument.

 

[Adonis Creed]

Did 1 hour of agility drill yesterday... worked some muscles i'm not used too...thsoe cones drillls - ladder and steps are KILLER!

 

[DramaticGloveSave]

It's flawed in the same sense every study in existence is flawed.

It's not a bad study at all. It's a very well done one. Considering the number of participants and the length of it, it's rather impressive what they've done. It's why it managed to get published in the JAMA internal medecine journal, which is a feat in itself.

And, they actually did take into account diet considerations such as the quality of the meat (processed vs unprocessed), quantities, amount of fruit, vegetables, etc (what you were criticizing it for). They controlled for an impressive amount of confounders.

That said, the conclusion of the study IS *drumroll*

There's basically no difference between a vegan lifestyle and a healthy omnivore lifestyle.

So, @DramaticGloveSave , you should have read that study before using it as an argument.

I think you missed the part where they found every three per cent increase in calories from plant protein was found to reduce risk of death by 10 per cent. The figure rises to 12 per cent for risk of dying from heart disease.
By contrast, raising the share of animal protein in one's diet by 10 per cent led to a two per cent higher risk of death from all causes. This increased to an eight per cent higher chance of dying from heart disease.

 

[OldCraig71]

I read this thread while eating moose meat lol.

 

[Andrei79]

I think you missed the part where they found every three per cent increase in calories from plant protein was found to reduce risk of death by 10 per cent. The figure rises to 12 per cent for risk of dying from heart disease.
By contrast, raising the share of animal protein in one's diet by 10 per cent led to a two per cent higher risk of death from all causes. This increased to an eight per cent higher chance of dying from heart disease.

No, I didn't.

That's why I made a precision for the "healthy" omnivore lifestyle. Because even with the increments there's no statistical significance for that group.

It goes back to @Kriss E 's point about healthy omnivore eating being... well, healthy. And, not inferior to a comparably healthy vegan/vegetarian lifestyle.

 

[Andrei79]

I read this thread while eating moose meat lol.

Do it while having sex with an oyster for full marks.

 

[OldCraig71]

Do it while having sex with an oyster for full marks.

 

[DramaticGloveSave]

No, I didn't.

That's why I made a precision for the "healthy" omnivore lifestyle. Because even with the increments there's no statistical significance for that group.

It goes back to @Kriss E 's point about healthy omnivore eating being... well, healthy. And, not inferior to a comparably healthy vegan/vegetarian lifestyle.

It was never me saying a healthy omnivore diet wasnt possible... even liked @Bieber fever post on the first page.

It was these guys saying a vegan diet couldn't be healthy, and me saying well, on the contrary...