Fire Tocchet #2

[WrinkledPossum]

Can he at least give the power play to someone not named Housley?

Our offense has looked so much better this year with Stillman and Varady on the staff. Evaluating Tocchet just based on this season I'm actually fine with him. Still hate how he's managing Hayton though.

Outside of Hayton, the biggest issues come from Housley. A PP that still needs improvement and a horrid defense. I wonder how much better we'd be if BA picked all of Tocchets assistants...

 

[PainForShane]

We are .500 against the so called bad teams, and .200 against the so called good teams. Overall .389. Also the season is 25% done. I don't care if we "looked good" or "can hang" with the good teams, it's about winning and banking points which we are not doing. Hopefully they can turn the rest of this trip around.

So... a few things.

1) We have played 9 games, the season is slated to be 56 games this year. So we are (9/56) = 16% done, or 1/6th-ish done of the season. 1/6th does not equal 1/4th there is a big difference

2) I absolutely care how we look when we play, at this stage I honestly think it is the most important thing. In the long term, regardless of a few bounces here and there, the teams who play well tend to win more games over the course of the season.

3) I have not seen very many games this year. However I did watch last night's game and I thought we were about even with STL who most would consider one of out of 5 or so cup favorites. If we played the way we played yesterday against ANA, LA, SJ we will win all of those games by multiple goals, our record will end up above .500 and likely good enough to make the playoffs where we can hopefully make a series against whichever cup favorite we play in the first round.

TL;DR? 1) it's still too early, 2) we're playing well against tough teams and 3) we've had a tougher schedule thus far compared to most teams in our division. Far too soon to get panicked over this imo especially since it seems like we are playing well as a team

 

[_Del_]

I don't care if we "looked good" or "can hang" with the good teams,

I do. Noone had a reasonable expectation of going anywhere this year. The new guy came in, looked around, then said publicly, "We've got a lot of work to do" and sold off or let veterans walk including trying to move the Captain of the team.
We suck. Get used to it. That's this year. It's a "we suck" year. We're actually playing young kids and getting a read on them for next year. Only a decade or two late.
The fact we can do that, turnover six or seven vets or whatever the number was, and still "can hang" with two of the best teams in the league is extremely encouraging. Go follow Edmonton if you want to be in lock-step with your "it's about winning and banking points with a mediocre roster"-coaching and management strategy. Heaven knows we've already tasted that bitter fruit.

 

[ParisSaintGermain]

Re. Tocchet, aside from a complete disaster in regards to the character of the team or disastrous development of its younger players, I think the wise thing is to keep him throughout the season and have a forensic evaluation of everything at the end of it.
With the way the divisions are set, the schedule, the covid protocols etc etc, I am ready to take results, good or bad, with a pinch of salt.

 

[Jakey53]

I do. Noone had a reasonable expectation of going anywhere this year. The new guy came in, looked around, then said publicly, "We've got a lot of work to do" and sold off or let veterans walk including trying to move the Captain of the team.
We suck. Get used to it. That's this year. It's a "we suck" year. We're actually playing young kids and getting a read on them for next year. Only a decade or two late.
The fact we can do that, turnover six or seven vets or whatever the number was, and still "can hang" with two of the best teams in the league is extremely encouraging. Go follow Edmonton if you want to be in lock-step with your "it's about winning and banking points with a mediocre roster"-coaching and management strategy. Heaven knows we've already tasted that bitter fruit.

I understand and agree with what you are saying to a point, but playing .500 against the so called bad teams, the one's who were predicted to miss the playoffs and are above us in the standings is not good enough. EVERY year we make up excuses. Last year it was "if we are fast and entertaining I don't care if we lose", and the when we did, most were pissed and the fire RT chants were loud and clear. We should be better than last year as moves made by BA were approved by most. We were given a playoff spot last year, and this year is basically the same. I think we are a bubble team with the old NHL schedule and division alignment, but this year if we can't beat out the Wild for that last playoff spot would be a disappointment. We suck. Get use to it? I think we are all use to that. Time to demand more.

 

[_Del_]

Time to demand more.

We're probably going to suck next year, too. The Demand Fairy isn't going to fix it for us.

 

[Jakey53]

We're probably going to suck next year to. The Demand Fairy isn't going to fix it for us.

We better not. We have some good pieces here to work with.

 

[_Del_]

Ottawa will win the Cup next year because Melnyk will demand it more than Foley.

 

[PuckLife]

Watching the Canucks Leafs game. The mighty Quinn Hughes has cost Vancouver 2 goals against. It interesting to see him out there non-stop despite making 2 significant errors. If he was here he’d be riding the pine. It burns my ass that Tocchet’s not developing the kids well.
Update - Quinn is minus 3 and too a penalty that lead to Toronto’s PP goal. Still has 11 minutes on ice in 2 periods.

 

[MIGs Dog]

Watching the Canucks Leafs game. The mighty Quinn Hughes has cost Vancouver 2 goals against. It interesting to see him out there non-stop despite making 2 significant errors. If he was here he’d be riding the pine. It burns my ass that Tocchet’s not developing the kids well.
Update - Quinn is minus 3 and too a penalty that lead to Toronto’s PP goal. Still has 11 minutes on ice in 2 periods.

He leads all dmen in pts...which is why he's on my fantasy team.

 

[MIGs Dog]

Not much "fire RT" talk lately. I call that recency bias.

 

[Grimes]

I have no idea what to think of this complete 180 in play haha. Is RT allowing his three assistants make the schemes bad develop plays and now he is just a motivator and voice in the room? Did BA tell him he has to adjust his scheme? No idea but whatever changes happened has made a huge impact and I don't mind getting more of it.

 

[rt]

It’s one of those things that’s tough for fans to figure out. MacLean was replaced by Varady and Stillman. A bunch of players were brought in that play with a much sharper edge and way better motors. And there is a new, tough, no bullshit GM that made those changes and likely made it clear to all that he’s more than happy to make many more. Also the young guys are a year older.

So hard Tocchet finally got what he needs? Has he learned and improved? Are we playing better despite him? Who knows?

So much change, it’s hard to pinpoint.

 

[technoviking]

I have no idea what to think of this complete 180 in play haha. Is RT allowing his three assistants make the schemes bad develop plays and now he is just a motivator and voice in the room? Did BA tell him he has to adjust his scheme? No idea but whatever changes happened has made a huge impact and I don't mind getting more of it.

That’s almost how things feel and what they kind of sound like if you listen to the interviews. It feels like RT is less involved and more of a managing type of head coach.

 

[CoyoteDave]

I have a hard time believing that Tocchet has made any of these changes. Nothing in his past shows that he is a winning coach. I think Varady is the difference. Maybe someone that watched a lot of the Roadrunners could chime in and let us know if this scheme looks more like what they were running in Tucson. I do think BA has let Tocchet know that his job is on the line (opinion only). The old Tocchet would have never put Garland, Schmaltz and Keller together.

 

[Vinny Boombatz]

I have a hard time believing that Tocchet has made any of these changes. Nothing in his past shows that he is a winning coach. I think Varady is the difference. Maybe someone that watched a lot of the Roadrunners could chime in and let us know if this scheme looks more like what they were running in Tucson. I do think BA has let Tocchet know that his job is on the line (opinion only). The old Tocchet would have never put Garland, Schmaltz and Keller together.

This is true, this is how the system looks for the Roadrunners. Which is why it was always perplexing watching Tucson and supposedly the Coyotes were running the same system, yet they looked completely different.

 

[Dirty Old Man]

The 2nd guy after RT in Tampa was Jon Cooper. Maybe Varady can be the next Jon Cooper, skipping the middleman (in this case Guy Boucher)

 

[rt]

That’s almost how things feel and what they kind of sound like if you listen to the interviews. It feels like RT is less involved and more of a managing type of head coach.

If this is true, hopefully he gets “promoted” out of coaching and whoever is responsible for this (probably Varady) gets the HC gig.

 

[_Del_]

I think the fact Tocc didn't get to fill his staff until late is still telling. And the fact he didn't get another one of his buddies, but got handed Varady and Stillman is also a clue.

There are a lot of variables, like rt said. We brought in some guys with an edge. The new GM has been clear that he's on a mission and there aren't any passes for being part of the good-guy Bud Light club. And of course what looks like scheme changes coming with staff changes.

I don't think Chayka had a clue about coaching really. And I don't think Tocc took much advice from him if it was ever offered. Now with a real hockey GM with bonafides and even some coaching experience, he's in the last year of his deal, he has to listen and take it seriously if he wants to keep his job.

I still think the plan is to ride out the season and let him "fail up" to a front office position to preserve his relationship with the org and his place as a local hockey icon.

He's either a bad head coach (history says, yes), or he's a good coach with the right guys around him which appear to have been selected by the GM and not the coach (possible). It doesn't seem sustainable if it's the latter, and a given to be replaced if the former.

You can't ask him to go back to being an assistant. And if Varady is actually the man behind the curtain, you can't expect Varady to stick around and pull levers in secret instead of taking a head coaching position. I think they can get away with a year of Tocc in such a role, but you can't sustain it.

 

[technoviking]

I think the fact Tocc didn't get to fill his staff until late is still telling. And the fact he didn't get another one of his buddies, but got handed Varady and Stillman is also a clue.

There are a lot of variables, like rt said. We brought in some guys with an edge. The new GM has been clear that he's on a mission and there aren't any passes for being part of the good-guy Bud Light club. And of course what looks like scheme changes coming with staff changes.

I don't think Chayka had a clue about coaching really. And I don't think Tocc took much advice from him if it was ever offered. Now with a real hockey GM with bonafides and even some coaching experience, he's in the last year of his deal, he has to listen and take it seriously if he wants to keep his job.

I still think the plan is to ride out the season and let him "fail up" to a front office position to preserve his relationship with the org and his place as a local hockey icon.

He's either a bad head coach (history says, yes), or he's a good coach with the right guys around him which appear to have been selected by the GM and not the coach (possible). It doesn't seem sustainable if it's the latter, and a given to be replaced if the former.

You can't ask him to go back to being an assistant. And if Varady is actually the man behind the curtain, you can't expect Varady to stick around and pull levers in secret instead of taking a head coaching position. I think they can get away with a year of Tocc in such a role, but you can't sustain it.

It's interesting. I was down on this season for the Coyotes coming in, but I felt like we were, for once, actually building because of BA. I'm already big on BA revamping the scouting department and the front office as a whole. The assistant coach hires and getting more out of this core with some complimentary signings is the cherry on top. If that trickles down to him having evaluated the roster and had conversations with some of the players then even better, but I think what we're seeing is a true culture shift. Chayka did some out of the box stuff to try and accumulate assets and at the time it was not a terrible idea considering our ownership situation and our ability to spend. Some of his moves worked and some did not, but I think what was more telling is what Chayka did not do once stable ownership came in. There were not any front office hires and anything that bolstered scouting, all we really did was trade for Kessel and spend to the cap. I think it does speak to that generalized opinion that 'Chayka always thought he was the smartest guy in the room'. Well I think that also means that Chayka did not always find extra help necessary. In stark contrast BA comes in and starts talking about having good hockey guys around to collective help the organization. He talked about leaning on scouts and coaches, Chayka didn't do any of that. Last year felt like the same old Coyotes, just one that spent to the cap and made a premature reach on a Taylor Hall deal. This year feels like an organization with now stable ownership starting to make true strides in becoming a well run organization. Too bad we can't add Hall to this group.

 

[Neighborhood Coyote]

Had a similar thought to yours, _Del_.

The fact that RT got the job and chose MacLean as an assistant and kept him around and not Allen (for example) says enough about his ideas of coaching and his decision making, to me.

It does feel like the additions of Varady and Stillman are from above (to me) and not necessarily Tocchet's choice. And if this is true, I don't see the success as being under Tocchet's direction. It would be more about BA bringing in coaches that know how to get better results. Which, as said... is telling.

If they are Tocchet's choices, then that changes my opinion of it. However, given his past hires, that seems highly unlikely.

 

[The Feckless Puck]

I have to admit - based on how he's talked in his press availabilities and how he acts on the bench, I'm not entirely sure Tocchet knows what's going on with the team.

Seriously. That's how it feels to me. At one point in last night's game, they had the camera on him, and you could clearly see him saying, "What's going on? What does that mean?" Even though I know the context was different, that's how it's felt all year to me about Tocchet as coach.

I agree with the posters above who say that Varady and Stillman are not there as assistants. I think they're running the team. Heaven knows what Tocchet is personally doing other than being a figurehead.

 

[Bonsai Tree]

Everybody loves a good conspiracy theory. Why waste so much energy on Tocchet right now. When the Coyotes are ready to start a multi- season run for the cup, Tocchet will either be a much better coach or a former coach.

 

[_Del_]

It may just be perception bias, but Tocchet has looked like a passenger on the bench almost every time they've show him. I think he's still doing his "rah-rah" routine, but I don't think he's in charge of much. It looks a lot more like an NFL coaching gig where someone else is coaching and running things, and he is nominally in a managerial role.
I would be fine with that arrangement indefinitely if I thought it could last in the NHL. I don't though.

Full marks to Tocc though for whatever he has agreed to do or not do. Whatever the plan they put in place is, is working.

If he's really the genius behind the improvement, go ahead and lock him up if it is still working later in the season. I was saying even last year that Tocchet was taking too much heat. You can show up and work hard in the playoffs for anyone, even if they aren't a good coach or manager. Time to play for pride, and the players didn't have any. Noone was getting much more out of that group. He was clearly A Problem, not The Problem as so many wanted to paint him.

Based on BA's comments and history, I'd say the direction to play young guys through their challenges comes straight from the top. History also says Tocc hasn't been great at adjustments, getting sustained effort, etc. so I expect there are some heavy undercurrents under the surface.

It's also only been a dozen games. We've seen good spurts before and watched it all fall apart. The offense looks more dangerous, and we don't rely solely on the rush to generate it like we have for a decade. Definitely some encouraging signs!

 

[Canis Latrans]

Some of his moves worked and some did not, but I think what was more telling is what Chayka did not do once stable ownership came in. There were not any front office hires and anything that bolstered scouting, all we really did was trade for Kessel and spend to the cap. I think it does speak to that generalized opinion that 'Chayka always thought he was the smartest guy in the room'. Well I think that also means that Chayka did not always find extra help necessary. In stark contrast BA comes in and starts talking about having good hockey guys around to collective help the organization.

Definitely telling that Armstrong comes in and immediately starts adding personnel everywhere, whereas Chayka just maintained the barebones operation mindset when obviously the budget had gone immensely up. In some ways, you can understand that the offseason is the best place for making changes across the organization, and things may have been locked up to a degree once Meruelo got in, but apparently Chayka was only narrowed in on the draft, handling trades, and agent negotiations. Feels like he just outright failed to see the whole picture, granted he'd actually improved the team's organizational depth a fair bit, but there's always more to be done - particularly when some one hands you a giant bag of money with no strings attached, how could you not find a way to use some of it right away.