Proposal: Fire Geoff Ward and Brad Treliving Now

[Fig]

This simply isn't true. We've spent to the cap almost every year since the 04 run. Our GMs (Sutter, Feaster, Burke, Treliving) have had autonomy to make 99% of trades and signings, with a minor hiccup being the Ben Bishop thing years ago that caused Treliving to negotiate even more autonomy. When Sutter was GM he was given the power to bring in some pretty big name coaches in Keenan and then Brent Sutter. This is a class organization by all accounts and that starts with ownership.

Treliving was given the autonomy to fire a guy who won coach of the year just one year after re-signing him.

It was Treliving's choice in the 2016 offseason to try to find the next Mike Sullivan / Jon Cooper instead of going after a proven name. The problem was that he hired Gulutzan based on some seminar the guy gave at a coaches conference. And you know Gulutzan sold himself well. Smart systems guy. But he just didn't have the overall aptitude to coach at this level, at least not without more seasoning as an AHL head coach. It happens. Bad hire, but that is on the GM. The GM interviewed three guys I believe (Gulutzan, Ward, and Carlyle). IIRC his first choice that offseason was actually the guy who had just won the AHL championship... you might know his name... Jared Bednar but Joe Sakic snapped him up first.

Next Treliving hires a guy he worked with at the World Championships or whatever it was. Treliving didn't even consider someone else. Peters was even well-compensated. But he didn't work out. And worse, his replacement in Carolina proved much better over there.

And then he has to promote Peters' assistant to interim and the guy goes and wins the qualifier round. Sure, we all saw that Ward was in over his head against NHL teams (which the 2020 Jets were not) but Treliving lacked the objectivity to say "hey thanks for your time as interim coach, my friend, you tried your best, but f***, you're just not good enough and Peter friggin Laviolette is". Instead Treliving wanted some trash like "continuity". That is on Treliving.

The worst indictment of our ownership is that they refuse to pay a player to play for another team. But they have softened their stance on that too given how many players Treliving has bought out (Raymond, Brouwer, Bouma, Stone, probably a few others). This was more of an issue for Feaster where we lost the Kotalik trade due to ownership's stubbornness.

Now if you're saying ownership refused to rebuild... that's wrong too. 2013-2014, and 2014-15 were supposed to be rebuild years, and 2015-16 ended up a rebuild year thanks to Tank Commander Hiller. Feaster wasn't even fired by ownership, they hired Burke to do a full evaluation on the organization after the Iginla/Bouwmeester selloffs. That was a high level of due diligence. I don't even like Burke but his hiring as POHO represented a commitment to (perceived) excellence.

If anything set our rebuild back, it was spending too much every offseason instead of seeing cap space for the asset that it actually is. I could write a whole essay on this one but I will be succinct and say ownership was not holding a gun to Treliving's temple telling him that we needed to sign Troy Brouwer or James Neal or Mike Stone or Lance Bouma or Mason Raymond. Ownership didn't waive Paul Byron or Brett Kulak. Ownership hasn't completely mishandled Kylington or Bennett or Phillips. Ownership didn't fail to sign Gaudreau to an eight year deal either, that was management. Ownership didn't trade serious draft capital for Travis Hamonic or Dougie Hamilton (yes I still hate that trade, I wanted Barzal/Connor and was horrified to see both drop to 15). Ownership doesn't feel compelled go acquire plugs like Rinaldo, Grossman, Bollig, Bartkowski etc like clockwork.

You want to see bad ownership look north where fanboyistic nepotism ruled the front office for years and the owner is just a flat out creep. And even then, their ownership is miles ahead of Eugene Melnyk, the worst owner in all of pro sports since Donald Sterling was forcefully removed from that title.

I don't think Treliving is incompetent, but make no mistake I think he is fully responsible for the results on the ice, not ownership. He hired the DumDum named Geoff Ward and he is the one who fails to see the need to fire him and bring in a relatively accomplished head coach like Nate Leaman or Bruce Boudreau or Gerrard Gallant or Lindy Ruff.

When you're being a voice of reason to what I wrote and defeat my posts with a wall of text that I agree with completely...

 

[Volica]

This simply isn't true. We've spent to the cap almost every year since the 04 run. Our GMs (Sutter, Feaster, Burke, Treliving) have had autonomy to make 99% of trades and signings, with a minor hiccup being the Ben Bishop thing years ago that caused Treliving to negotiate even more autonomy. When Sutter was GM he was given the power to bring in some pretty big name coaches in Keenan and then Brent Sutter. This is a class organization by all accounts and that starts with ownership.

Treliving was given the autonomy to fire a guy who won coach of the year just one year after re-signing him.

It was Treliving's choice in the 2016 offseason to try to find the next Mike Sullivan / Jon Cooper instead of going after a proven name. The problem was that he hired Gulutzan based on some seminar the guy gave at a coaches conference. And you know Gulutzan sold himself well. Smart systems guy. But he just didn't have the overall aptitude to coach at this level, at least not without more seasoning as an AHL head coach. It happens. Bad hire, but that is on the GM. The GM interviewed three guys I believe (Gulutzan, Ward, and Carlyle). IIRC his first choice that offseason was actually the guy who had just won the AHL championship... you might know his name... Jared Bednar but Joe Sakic snapped him up first.

Next Treliving hires a guy he worked with at the World Championships or whatever it was. Treliving didn't even consider someone else. Peters was even well-compensated. But he didn't work out. And worse, his replacement in Carolina proved much better over there.

And then he has to promote Peters' assistant to interim and the guy goes and wins the qualifier round. Sure, we all saw that Ward was in over his head against NHL teams (which the 2020 Jets were not) but Treliving lacked the objectivity to say "hey thanks for your time as interim coach, my friend, you tried your best, but f***, you're just not good enough and Peter friggin Laviolette is". Instead Treliving wanted some trash like "continuity". That is on Treliving.

The worst indictment of our ownership is that they refuse to pay a player to play for another team. But they have softened their stance on that too given how many players Treliving has bought out (Raymond, Brouwer, Bouma, Stone, probably a few others). This was more of an issue for Feaster where we lost the Kotalik trade due to ownership's stubbornness.

Now if you're saying ownership refused to rebuild... that's wrong too. 2013-2014, and 2014-15 were supposed to be rebuild years, and 2015-16 ended up a rebuild year thanks to Tank Commander Hiller. Feaster wasn't even fired by ownership, they hired Burke to do a full evaluation on the organization after the Iginla/Bouwmeester selloffs. That was a high level of due diligence. I don't even like Burke but his hiring as POHO represented a commitment to (perceived) excellence.

If anything set our rebuild back, it was spending too much every offseason instead of seeing cap space for the asset that it actually is. I could write a whole essay on this one but I will be succinct and say ownership was not holding a gun to Treliving's temple telling him that we needed to sign Troy Brouwer or James Neal or Mike Stone or Lance Bouma or Mason Raymond. Ownership didn't waive Paul Byron or Brett Kulak. Ownership hasn't completely mishandled Kylington or Bennett or Phillips. Ownership didn't fail to sign Gaudreau to an eight year deal either, that was management. Ownership didn't trade serious draft capital for Travis Hamonic or Dougie Hamilton (yes I still hate that trade, I wanted Barzal/Connor and was horrified to see both drop to 15). Ownership doesn't feel compelled go acquire plugs like Rinaldo, Grossman, Bollig, Bartkowski etc like clockwork.

You want to see bad ownership look north where fanboyistic nepotism ruled the front office for years and the owner is just a flat out creep. And even then, their ownership is miles ahead of Eugene Melnyk, the worst owner in all of pro sports since Donald Sterling was forcefully removed from that title.

I don't think Treliving is incompetent, but make no mistake I think he is fully responsible for the results on the ice, not ownership. He hired the DumDum named Geoff Ward and he is the one who fails to see the need to fire him and bring in a relatively accomplished head coach like Nate Leaman or Bruce Boudreau or Gerrard Gallant or Lindy Ruff.

I really only disagree with a couple points here, but the rest 100%.

Bob Hartley was also a terrible coach. CotY or not (as we know, majority of that time this is a meaningless award) Hartley was well over his head as well. He came into an old team with some pieces, and essentially couldn't get them going, which started our rebuild. A season where the hockey luck gods shine on you isn't the mark of a great coach. The guys like Trotz where he can get a shit team to buy in completely (like, seriously, look at the f***ing Islanders on paper. This should not be a team that goes deep every season) or a guy like Dutter before people tune him out (his shelf life is shorter). We've never had that.

I'd also say there have been rumblings for what seems like forever that this ownership group demands results. Considering the way Murray Edwards had run CNRL and had major influence at Penn West; it's not that hard to imagine what kind of owner he is. Regardless, though, it's up to the person who runs the hockey ops to build that bridge between the on-ice product and the ownership group, like it's on Treliving to make it clear that this team needs ample time to rebuild properly.

My major issue with this team, and it'll last until we do it right; is the fact we called the rebuild over after getting two top 10 picks (none in the top 3) and then just running with it. No team in the modern game (let's say 10-12 years) has won a cup without a top 3 pick on the roster playing a big role (not a first round bust playing 11 minutes a night 14 years after his draft kind of thing). It's like going to play darts at a tournament and only bringing a pair of darts with you. So yeah, you can go T20, T20 on your two shots, but the guys around you will be going T20/T20/Bull. In Calgary's case both our top 10 picks that were part of our original rebuild busted to various degrees. So that doesn't help.

 

[Nanuuk]

Yes Tre has been here 7 years and yes some mistakes have been made. In his defence he was a rookie when he got here and mistakes will be made. The key is whether he has learned from those mistakes in a very complicated position in the organization. He has rebuilt our scouting group, the AHL organization, made some good trades and made some good draft picks all without cratering the team to draft higher. I think he has managed the cap fairly well too. He was close on a couple of big deals, but I think my next point prevented him from making them.

His major fault is that he is too loyal to the coaches and players. He needs to hold them accountable now and not wait for garbage bag day and exit interviews.

We have to remember that the ownership group have been losing their oil and gas fortunes and probably don't want to significantly add to the bleeding with their sports franchises. So we get coaches willing to work cheaper.

I was quite prepared to give Ward a chance to prove himself. And I continue to want to see him and the Flames progress and win.

Is it time to change coaches again or time to move out players? Players. We may sink and sink fast, but we'd be setting the tone that you're either part of the solution or part of the problem. We can't keep changing coaches.

 

[Mitts]

Needless to say I agree, I made the same thread 2 weeks ago,

We Need a New Direction, Treliving and Ward Have to go.

 

[User1996]

Does a 5 game losing streak initiate some changes? I have no faith we win one of the next three

 

[DFF]

Does a 5 game losing streak initiate some changes? I have no faith we win one of the next three

if not, losing to Ottawa after that will

 

[CanmoreMike]

Anderson, mangi and dube are middling players. On top of that he depleted the depth with his stupid trade. When we need help we got Ritchie, Freose and Ronaldo. The oilers have better depth lmfao

Not a regular but checking the vibes at Flames boards (I come in peace, I promise). I’d add that the failed trade with the Leafs that fell through when Kadri wouldn’t waive his trade protections to come to Calgary was a kick on the ass. Players knew who management deemed expendable and it went only slightly better for the Flames than it did for the Rangers in ‘92 when they tried to land Eric Lindros. Add the Jason Zucker trade (also fail) and any trust from the players is gone.

Best season in Flames last 30+ years and management is either too stupid or incompetent to build on it.

 

[Anglesmith]

I wasn't on board until we decided not to challenge the Dube goal down 4-1.

 

[DFF]

I wasn't on board until we decided not to challenge the Dube goal down 4-1.

It’s really bad

ward is truly clueless as a coach

 

[Body Checker]

Flames organization is more about community and being corporate. Winning hockey games is more for the American run teams. Flames org loves entertaining the rich oil guys on the golf course and playing floor hockey with school kids. Winning hockey? Nah, that’s not our thing bruh.

 

[CamPopplestone]

Flames organization is more about community and being corporate. Winning hockey games is more for the American run teams. Flames org loves entertaining the rich oil guys on the golf course and playing floor hockey with school kids. Winning hockey? Nah, that’s not our thing bruh.

That's a large part of it. Ownership wants to be a playoff team annually to get at least that first round revenue, and keep the team just competitive enough that fans won't give up, attendance for rebuilders/bottom feeders is frequently lower

 

[cheechoo]

It's time to fire BT. He's had 7 years now as general manager of the Flames, more than enough time to build a winner or construct whatever he envisioned as a championship caliber team. That's 7 drafts, free agencies, years to evaluate his roster / wait for prospects to develop, seek and make trades etc. It's just not working out, I don't believe in the foundation he's built and it's not like there's an abundance of young players or blue chip prospects to be excited about. It's time to move in a new direction and start again under the ideology of someone with a different view on team construction. Get rid of everyone. All of the recycled coaches and managerial understudy that have been apart of this iteration. This franchise has been handcuffed by poor & uncreative management for pretty much my entire lifetime, and it's this is just another chapter of the same book we've been reading since forever.

 

[Body Checker]

It's time to fire BT. He's had 7 years now as general manager of the Flames, more than enough time to build a winner or construct whatever he envisioned as a championship caliber team. That's 7 drafts, free agencies, years to evaluate his roster / wait for prospects to develop, seek and make trades etc. It's just not working out, I don't believe in the foundation he's built and it's not like there's an abundance of young players or blue chip prospects to be excited about. It's time to move in a new direction and start again under the ideology of someone with a different view on team construction. Get rid of everyone. All of the recycled coaches and managerial understudy that have been apart of this iteration. This franchise has been handcuffed by poor & uncreative management for pretty much my entire lifetime, and it's this is just another chapter of the same book we've been reading since forever.

You say it brother (or sister).

 

[Johnny Hoxville]

Fire everyone. What a joke this organization is. Reminds me of the Stamps under Jim Barker.

 

[sonic92]

Fire everyone. What a joke this organization is. Reminds me of the Stamps under Jim Barker.

I'd argue the Matt Dunigan year was even worse for the Stamps but point taken.

 

[DFF]

Fire everyone. What a joke this organization is. Reminds me of the Stamps under Jim Barker.

Brad treliving’s fatal mistakes cost us

and now we are painted into a corner with no help coming

tear down the foundation and rebuild with someone new

 

[Mobiandi]

Treliving has overseen coaches that have been laid the worst beatdowns I've ever seen at the hands of the Oilers. Jesus f***ing christ how many times have they put up at least 7 on us while he's been our GM

 

[herashak]

Treliving besides the hamonic trade has been decent enough. Also some bad signings, and might not be able to hire a good coach

 

[OvermanKingGainer]

What is wrong with the Flames?

Too many top-end players who don't or can't play with much actual pace. Lindholm, Tkachuk, Monahan, the entire blueline as currently constructed, all the roleplayer forwards that Treliving brought in (Leivo, Simon, Nordstrom). There are only a handful of players on this team who are suited to playing a true uptempo style - Gaudreau, Bennett, Dube, Mangiapane, Backlund, and Kylington. Not sure where Lucic fits as he is slow but actually does seem to be able to keep up with Dube and Bennett. Point being, since they as a collective cannot play uptempo, they... do not.

Treliving has done nothing to make a fast team. He has waived guys like Byron and Kylington and let guys like Brodie and Ferland go.

The coach is in over his head too and has cost us too many close 1 goal games. Tonight's loss wasn't on coaching, but most nights it is.

 

[DFF]

Treliving besides the hamonic trade has been decent

that is not true. He built a team that can not win

also I think he lost the respect of the players, he plays a hard game on their contracts but went out and wasted money on FAs. They clearly don’t want to play for him

 

[Mitts]

Treliving besides the hamonic trade has been decent enough. Also some bad signings, and might not be able to hire a good coach

That's the biggest issue for me, I have been a Tre fan for a long time, but he has failed in hiring coaches badly, and I don't see that changing, that's why I advocated for him and Ward to be fired, I respect them very much as people and the effort they put in to try and make us winners, but it hasn't worked on a professional level and sports is a results based business. I see people on this forum hurl personal insults at them as if they were trying to sabotage the team, they need to give their head a shake and understand just how competitive this league is and the decisions that are made are not all black and white, even if they seem obvious to us, we have no idea what really goes into the decision making. All I know is it isn't working and I don't see that changing until there is a major shakeup.

 

[Body Checker]

For Treliving you have to look at the philosophy he went with overall versus every single move he's made. He came in after the Iggy and Kipper situations were already dealt with so he had a clean slate. For Flames fans although it was sad that Iggy/Kipper didn't get a Cup we did enjoy the 2004 Cup run and overall league wide relevance during the Darryl Sutter years. But the writing was on the wall on not being competitive during Feaster's time and we were all in (well I was) for a rebuild program. We were all excited that the 2014-2018 draft seasons would see a bunch of top 10 picks with maybe a shot at guys like Matthews and Makar.

Well then that big blowhard Brian Burke came in and talked about the "proper way to build" and that going for lottery picks was not the proper way. He brought in Treliving. Okay well we had the 2014 draft where we thought Bennett would combine with Monohan and Gaudreau to give us an elite core. But more was needed and the 2015, 2016 and 2017 drafts would probably give us a few more core players. In addition upcoming trade deadlines would deliver 2nd to 7th round picks and B prospects to build up our overall depth.

BOOM. Treliving blew that out of the water with the Hamilton and Hamonic trades. Add in smaller moves like the Lazar trade. So in less than two years after Iggy/Kipper we went from a rebuild to a reset. Treliving bought big on "reset stocks" and now his market shares are struggling. His portfolio is weak. He didn't diversify through the draft instead relying on trades and veteran free agents.

Here we are seven years later and he needs to be evaluated on the path he took to build the current team. How do you feel about the team? Are we one big trade away from correcting the current issues? Or a head coaching change away? Or will adding from our prospect pool solve our problems?

I think we are back to square one; back to 2014 with nothing to show for the last 7 years. Maybe a couple radical trades to bring in a few other team's top prospects like Morgan Frost and Samuel Poulin will short track a rebuild by adding those guys to our current young D-core and Tkachuk, Mangiapane and Dube. Pelletier/Zary coming soon.

I dunno, can Treliving save face here this season or next season? Should he be given that opportunity?

 

[turnagainoutlaw]

I watched the Ward presser with the sound off last night and man does his body language look defeated. I actually felt sorry for the guy and stopped tweeting #fireward for a while.

 

[Johnny Hoxville]

Honestly this doesn’t get talked about enough, but us completely losing the Iginla and Bouwmeester trades really set us back too. We literally don’t have an existing piece in the organization from either trade. Poirier and Klimchuk busted none of the acquired prospects are even with us anymore. None of that falls on Tre obviously, but had we gotten a couple of Backlund caliber players back, our roster would be much better off.

 

[DFF]

Honestly this doesn’t get talked about enough, but us completely losing the Iginla and Bouwmeester trades really set us back too. We literally don’t have an existing piece in the organization from either trade. Poirier and Klimchuk busted none of the acquired prospects are even with us anymore. None of that falls on Tre obviously, but had we gotten a couple of Backlund caliber players back, our roster would be much better off.

Yet Todd Button remains the hero for many.