Proposal: Fire Geoff Ward and Brad Treliving Now

[Mobiandi]

I don't even care about our record - 8-8-1 is nothing new for Flames fans.

The level of incompetence on display from both the GM and the coach is not only a new low for this core but actively hurting the perception of this team around the league. They have to go

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[InfinityIggy]

Yes.

 

[Corpus X]

I do.

 

[super6646]

Brad is a conman and a tool... go back to making f***ing pizzas and gtfo thanks.

 

[DFF]

 

[super6646]

God I hope so.

 

[DCDM]

Fax

 

[BobColesNasalCavity]

Geoff step into my office. Because you're f***ing fired.

 

[Johnny Hoxville]

I’m okay with Tre going, but... I feel like if that happens we’re getting Conroy.

 

[Bounces R Way]

Ward has to go. Simply not good enough at this level. This franchise rewarding losing in the 1st round with an extension is just so typical Flames it's not even funny.

Treliving I'm a bit more conflicted on. The drafting has improved and I think good drafting is the cornerstone of a good team. Mangipane, Valimaki, Andersson, Dube, Kylington are all solid picks that should be contributing outside the 1st round(other than Juuso). The trades have been a little hit or miss. Lindholm and Hanifin good, Lucic/Neal whatever, Hamonic and Lazar were awful on day one. The fact that the best coach he's hired was a racist sociopath is a definite strike against, but I feel the ownership has a hand in that. Always seems to be the cheapest option. UFA has been largely bad but unless you're able to attract the top FAs there's not a whole lot to be done about it. Markstrom and Tanev look great so far, the rest not so much.

 

[Mobiandi]

I really, really dislike Treliving's player relations. Gun to your head, does it look like anyone is interested in having to go through another round of negotiations with Treliving to re-sign for a middling team?

 

[CraigsList]

Treliving is on the hot seat now.

Idk if it’s on him that we aren’t spending money on a coach, but this has been a problem for YEARS. YEARS. After both failing on Gulutzan and the unexpected loss of Peters, you would think it would be ideal to get an actual coach so that this team could go all in. Nope. Instead, we go with a coach that really doesn’t know what he’s doing. It’s only been a little over 1/4 of the season and we are already seeing the terrible moves that have been made by Ward with the blending of lines and the favoritism on some players. He needs to go.

Back to Treliving, I think he’s been a good GM in other departments. But, he hasn’t gotten the job done well enough for me to want to keep him around.

 

[Fig]

Treliving is on the hot seat now.

Idk if it’s on him that we aren’t spending money on a coach, but this has been a problem for YEARS. YEARS. After both failing on Gulutzan and the unexpected loss of Peters, you would think it would be ideal to get an actual coach so that this team could go all in. Nope. Instead, we go with a coach that really doesn’t know what he’s doing. It’s only been a little over 1/4 of the season and we are already seeing the terrible moves that have been made by Ward with the blending of lines and the favoritism on some players. He needs to go.

Back to Treliving, I think he’s been a good GM in other departments. But, he hasn’t gotten the job done well enough for me to want to keep him around.

But that predates Treliving. This might mean the issue is ownership. We know they had a playoff mandate when we should have rebuilt. We know they don't allow salary retention. If that's the case, can we do better than Treliving if another GM is that badly handcuffed?

Then there is prospects. The owners never invested in the farms until Treliving came along. Treliving has always been a guy who really focused on the lower tier leagues, so I bet that was his pet project demand. On top of that, we know Button has been around since 1997. He's consistently hit decent players if it seemed like he was given the reins at a draft. The guy has a good eye. When the GMs intervened (ie: Sutter, Feaster/Weisbrod, Burke) the results were horrific. Treliving has done the draft mandate well.

Coaches, I honestly think that was outside of Treliving's hands and I completely blame ownership for having restrictions to the point there is no actual passable solution. I've posted several times in significant detail where I said that even though Treliving says there is no restriction on coaching salary, I think it's a full faced lie. I just have no idea why he is lying on behalf of ownership. There were plenty of reports and rumors that he had to fight hard to get Peters paid 2MM and it was reported that with Peters the Flames had "splurged" on a coach. Excuse me? Plenty of coaches were making 2-3x what Peters was making. 2MM on a coach isn't the lowest, but I think it still is a but below the average of what coaches were being paid in the league. But another thing that irks me even though I think he's awesome... why has Gelinas been an AC with us since 2012 even though everyone else around him has been turfed several times over?

Like I said the GM is handcuffed by ownership. I also think this is why we got Burke as a POHO. Heck, even with both those guys as a duo, Ken King was required to review every damn move they made. The most obvious example of this was when Bishop was traded to LA for dirt cheap (like less than a 3rd rounder or something). This because the rumors was Treliving and Burke apparently couldn't get ahold of King to allow the deal to go through because he was on a plane or something. Yzerman wanted a reply within like 30 mins, so Yzerman traded Bishop to LA instead. We could have tried to go to ploffs with Bishop instead of Elliot/Johnson.

If it were up to me. I'd be damn sure to keep Treliving. But the major fixes is firing Ward, opening up the coach salary to 3MM and allowing salary retention, but not buyouts.

 

[RasmusAndersson]

But that predates Treliving. This might mean the issue is ownership. We know they had a playoff mandate when we should have rebuilt. We know they don't allow salary retention. If that's the case, can we do better than Treliving if another GM is that badly handcuffed?

Then there is prospects. The owners never invested in the farms until Treliving came along. Treliving has always been a guy who really focused on the lower tier leagues, so I bet that was his pet project demand. On top of that, we know Button has been around since 1997. He's consistently hit decent players if it seemed like he was given the reins at a draft. The guy has a good eye. When the GMs intervened (ie: Sutter, Feaster/Weisbrod, Burke) the results were horrific. Treliving has done the draft mandate well.

Coaches, I honestly think that was outside of Treliving's hands and I completely blame ownership for having restrictions to the point there is no actual passable solution. I've posted several times in significant detail where I said that even though Treliving says there is no restriction on coaching salary, I think it's a full faced lie. I just have no idea why he is lying on behalf of ownership. There were plenty of reports and rumors that he had to fight hard to get Peters paid 2MM and it was reported that with Peters the Flames had "splurged" on a coach. Excuse me? Plenty of coaches were making 2-3x what Peters was making. 2MM on a coach isn't the lowest, but I think it still is a but below the average of what coaches were being paid in the league. But another thing that irks me even though I think he's awesome... why has Gelinas been an AC with us since 2012 even though everyone else around him has been turfed several times over?

Like I said the GM is handcuffed by ownership. I also think this is why we got Burke as a POHO. Heck, even with both those guys as a duo, Ken King was required to review every damn move they made. The most obvious example of this was when Bishop was traded to LA for dirt cheap (like less than a 3rd rounder or something). This because the rumors was Treliving and Burke apparently couldn't get ahold of King to allow the deal to go through because he was on a plane or something. Yzerman wanted a reply within like 30 mins, so Yzerman traded Bishop to LA instead. We could have tried to go to ploffs with Bishop instead of Elliot/Johnson.

If it were up to me. I'd be damn sure to keep Treliving. But the major fixes is firing Ward, opening up the coach salary to 3MM and allowing salary retention, but not buyouts.

I think you’re giving Brad too much credit. Yes his drafting is good and he’s made a few solid moves. But he’s also hired multiple bad coaches, signed some god-awful and cap-crippling UFA contracts, and he for all his great drafting record he’s left us with a bottom-10 prospect pool in the league. And an average roster with little to no flexibility after 5+ years on the job. I’m definitely not saying blame Treliving for everything but I sure think he’s done as much bad as he has good. If nothing else get rid of the guy for paying Michael Stone Troy Brouwer and Milan Lucic’s grandkids til they’re his age. Just kidding but its all the issues that compound and leave us with a bad coach, meh roster, and meh prospect pool after so long

 

[Fig]

I think you’re giving Brad too much credit. Yes his drafting is good and he’s made a few solid moves. But he’s also hired multiple bad coaches, signed some god-awful and cap-crippling UFA contracts, and he for all his great drafting record he’s left us with a bottom-10 prospect pool in the league. And an average roster with little to no flexibility after 5+ years on the job. I’m definitely not saying blame Treliving for everything but I sure think he’s done as much bad as he has good. If nothing else get rid of the guy for paying Michael Stone Troy Brouwer and Milan Lucic’s grandkids til they’re his age. Just kidding but its all the issues that compound and leave us with a bad coach, meh roster, and meh prospect pool after so long

If you have playoff mandate from ownership with the roster and currency Treliving inherited, that's starting to build a house with a cracked and flooded foundation. The fact Treliving got a house built and the structure didn't collapse hallway is a credit to his skills.

Ownership mandate is why Treliving made moves to acquire talent/projects 2-3 years ahead in development to our picks. Some turned into dougue. Others, Lazar.

Ownership mandate means more ufa for warm bodies vs development years for prospects.

Ownership mandate is why we missed the boat on certain deals that could have changed the course favorably for the Flames.

Ownership mandate likely means our AHL team plays 3 time zones away.

Ownership mandate likely means there is no option that could be chosen that wouldn't end up in absolute failure, or best case, mediocrity.

 

[RasmusAndersson]

If you have playoff mandate from ownership with the roster and currency Treliving inherited, that's starting to build a house with a cracked and flooded foundation. The fact Treliving got a house built and the structure didn't collapse hallway is a credit to his skills.

Ownership mandate is why Treliving made moves to acquire talent/projects 2-3 years ahead in development to our picks.

Ownership mandate is why we missed the boat on certain deals that could have changed the course favorably for the Flames.

Ownership mandate likely means our AHL team plays 3 time zones away.

Ownership mandate likely means there is no option that could be chosen that wouldn't end up in absolute failure, or best case, mediocrity.

Idk I have a hard time taking the blame off Brad for some of the contracts he handed out to players and coaches. Could he really not even try convince management to spend on coaching after convincing them to drop 30 mil on 31 year old James Neal? Is it possible that Brad did try and that ownership is the cause of all evil? Definitely, in which case our organization is permanent screwed lol. But I still find ourselves stuck in a bad place and I don’t think Brad has done enough to give us roster/cap flexibility and restock the pipeline. Having said that if we could just fire our ownership instead I would, but since we can’t I want to replace Brad with someone with a backbone who isn’t scared to blow shit up (but not spend 10 mil on July 1st every 2nd year lol).
But I’ve also been calling for change for over a year and I think it’s quite funny that people are finally just hitting the breaking point now as if this hasn’t been clear since our unsustainable regular season 2 years ago. Same people calling for brads head supported his decisions to keep our core intact and hire Geoff full time just a few months ago. I don’t even necessarily blame brad for hiring Geoff because I honestly didn’t think he would be this bad. But it’s the fact that we have a bad coach, bad team, and meh prospect pool w little cap flexibility that makes me think maybe he’s just not the right guy for the situation. Maybe nobody can do it w our ownership breathing down their necks tho, but may as well try something new instead of continuing to bang our heads against this stupid wall

 

[Fig]

Idk I have a hard time taking the blame off Brad for some of the contracts he handed out to players and coaches. Could he really not even try convince management to spend on coaching after convincing them to drop 30 mil on 31 year old James Neal? Is it possible that Brad did try and that ownership is the cause of all evil? Definitely, in which case our organization is permanent screwed lol. But I still find ourselves stuck in a bad place and I don’t think Brad has done enough to give us roster/cap flexibility and restock the pipeline. Having said that if we could just fire our ownership instead I would, but since we can’t I want to replace Brad with someone with a backbone who isn’t scared to blow shit up (but not spend 10 mil on July 1st every 2nd year lol).
But I’ve also been calling for change for over a year and I think it’s quite funny that people are finally just hitting the breaking point now as if this hasn’t been clear since our unsustainable regular season 2 years ago. Same people calling for brads head supported his decisions to keep our core intact and hire Geoff full time just a few months ago. I don’t even necessarily blame brad for hiring Geoff because I honestly didn’t think he would be this bad. But it’s the fact that we have a bad coach, bad team, and meh prospect pool w little cap flexibility that makes me think maybe he’s just not the right guy for the situation. Maybe nobody can do it w our ownership breathing down their necks tho, but may as well try something new instead of continuing to bang our heads against this stupid wall

How on earth do you constantly pump so much contradiction and bad observations into each of your posts?

 

[RasmusAndersson]

How on earth do you constantly pump so much contradiction and bad observations into each of your posts?

Lol probs seems like contradiction cause we’re 100% speculating and have no idea what’s actually brad or management. Do you? Bad observations? Like u completely attributing our struggles to management without having any real ideas about our mangsnrent? Do you get Murray Edwards daily memo cause u sure act like it. I’m torn too bro wish I knew exactly what was going on so I could better identify the problem but we can’t lol so stuck observing from the sidelines

 

[Fig]

Lol probs seems like contradiction cause we’re 100% speculating and have no idea what’s actually brad or management. Do you? Bad observations? Like u completely attributing our struggles to management without having any real ideas about our mangsnrent? Do you get Murray Edwards daily memo cause u sure act like it

No It's bad observations because in your post, you think you're one of the only early people who wanted change. That's super wrong. The vast majority of the flames fan continent wants change. It's just that no one can agree how to change it.

You also list a crap ton of things you think think Treliving has done which you think are a firable offense and then you list thing you think he should do that are legitimate fireable offenses from our current ownership group. That's contradictory. I'm literally bitching about the ownership group being idiots and you think I follow their news letter? That's contradictory and bad observation.

I do not think you get it. Our ownership group is as bad and and as dysfunctional as Melnyk, but just without the reputation for it. No GM would succeed here with how our ownership handcuffs and micro manages the gm.

 

[RasmusAndersson]

No It's bad observations because in your post, you think you're one of the only early people who wanted change. That's super wrong. The vast majority of the flames fan continent wants change. It's just that no one can agree how to change it.

You also list a crap ton of things you think think Treliving has done which you think are a firable offense and then you list thing you think he should do that are legitimate fireable offenses from our current ownership group. That's contradictory. I'm literally bitching about the ownership group being idiots and you think I follow their news letter? That's contradictory and bad observation.

I do not think you get it. Our ownership group is as bad and and as dysfunctional as Melnyk, but just without the reputation for it. No GM would succeed here with how our ownership handcuffs and micro manages the gm.

I think our opinions are way closer than you think and I just presented my arguments poorly. I agree our ownership group is very very bad. I’ve heard the stories too. When I said I was one of the few people who advocated for change I meant moving one of our core guys (i.e monahan or Johnny). I know some people have always wanted change but many people wanted us to continue adding depth to this roster and not making core changes. I’m not contradicting myself about brad either. I get his hands are most likely tied but I still think he could’ve been smarter in FA, in picking coaches and allocating our team budget, and in always moving mid-round picks to leave our cupboards bear. Again, I am acknowledging that most of this is prob because his hands are tied, and that any GM is set up to fail here, but in that case I still think he is not the guy to continue with on the off chance we find a good GM who can somehow satisfy management and win games. I’m saying I don’t blame brad for every little thing that got us here, as he’s done some good and had some tough circumstances. but the reality is we’re here and he hasn’t done enough to prove he should stay, especially for an underperforming team that needs an identify shakeup

Having said that, we both really do not know what decisions are Brad’s and what decisions his hands are truly tied for. I don’t think you get that it’s not nearly as black and white as you’re making it.

 

[OvermanKingGainer]

Our ownership group is as bad and and as dysfunctional as Melnyk, but just without the reputation for it. No GM would succeed here with how our ownership handcuffs and micro manages the gm.

This simply isn't true. We've spent to the cap almost every year since the 04 run. Our GMs (Sutter, Feaster, Burke, Treliving) have had autonomy to make 99% of trades and signings, with a minor hiccup being the Ben Bishop thing years ago that caused Treliving to negotiate even more autonomy. When Sutter was GM he was given the power to bring in some pretty big name coaches in Keenan and then Brent Sutter. This is a class organization by all accounts and that starts with ownership.

Treliving was given the autonomy to fire a guy who won coach of the year just one year after re-signing him.

It was Treliving's choice in the 2016 offseason to try to find the next Mike Sullivan / Jon Cooper instead of going after a proven name. The problem was that he hired Gulutzan based on some seminar the guy gave at a coaches conference. And you know Gulutzan sold himself well. Smart systems guy. But he just didn't have the overall aptitude to coach at this level, at least not without more seasoning as an AHL head coach. It happens. Bad hire, but that is on the GM. The GM interviewed three guys I believe (Gulutzan, Ward, and Carlyle). IIRC his first choice that offseason was actually the guy who had just won the AHL championship... you might know his name... Jared Bednar but Joe Sakic snapped him up first.

Next Treliving hires a guy he worked with at the World Championships or whatever it was. Treliving didn't even consider someone else. Peters was even well-compensated. But he didn't work out. And worse, his replacement in Carolina proved much better over there.

And then he has to promote Peters' assistant to interim and the guy goes and wins the qualifier round. Sure, we all saw that Ward was in over his head against NHL teams (which the 2020 Jets were not) but Treliving lacked the objectivity to say "hey thanks for your time as interim coach, my friend, you tried your best, but f***, you're just not good enough and Peter friggin Laviolette is". Instead Treliving wanted some trash like "continuity". That is on Treliving.

The worst indictment of our ownership is that they refuse to pay a player to play for another team. But they have softened their stance on that too given how many players Treliving has bought out (Raymond, Brouwer, Bouma, Stone, probably a few others). This was more of an issue for Feaster where we lost the Kotalik trade due to ownership's stubbornness.

Now if you're saying ownership refused to rebuild... that's wrong too. 2013-2014, and 2014-15 were supposed to be rebuild years, and 2015-16 ended up a rebuild year thanks to Tank Commander Hiller. Feaster wasn't even fired by ownership, they hired Burke to do a full evaluation on the organization after the Iginla/Bouwmeester selloffs. That was a high level of due diligence. I don't even like Burke but his hiring as POHO represented a commitment to (perceived) excellence.

If anything set our rebuild back, it was spending too much every offseason instead of seeing cap space for the asset that it actually is. I could write a whole essay on this one but I will be succinct and say ownership was not holding a gun to Treliving's temple telling him that we needed to sign Troy Brouwer or James Neal or Mike Stone or Lance Bouma or Mason Raymond. Ownership didn't waive Paul Byron or Brett Kulak. Ownership hasn't completely mishandled Kylington or Bennett or Phillips. Ownership didn't fail to sign Gaudreau to an eight year deal either, that was management. Ownership didn't trade serious draft capital for Travis Hamonic or Dougie Hamilton (yes I still hate that trade, I wanted Barzal/Connor and was horrified to see both drop to 15). Ownership doesn't feel compelled go acquire plugs like Rinaldo, Grossman, Bollig, Bartkowski etc like clockwork.

You want to see bad ownership look north where fanboyistic nepotism ruled the front office for years and the owner is just a flat out creep. And even then, their ownership is miles ahead of Eugene Melnyk, the worst owner in all of pro sports since Donald Sterling was forcefully removed from that title.

I don't think Treliving is incompetent, but make no mistake I think he is fully responsible for the results on the ice, not ownership. He hired the DumDum named Geoff Ward and he is the one who fails to see the need to fire him and bring in a relatively accomplished head coach like Nate Leaman or Bruce Boudreau or Gerrard Gallant or Lindy Ruff.

 

[Fire Treliving]

I’m okay with Tre going, but... I feel like if that happens we’re getting Conroy.

I'm afraid it could be Don Maloney.

 

[DFF]

Treliving drafting well is a myth. For the 7 years he has been here, who did we get. Bennett, tkachuk,Valimaki, Anderson, Mangi and Dube?

bennett is a bust, tkachuk was alright but both were top lottery picks that fell into his lap

valimaki is the only other one that has a small chance of becoming a star

Anderson, mangi and dube are middling players. On top of that he depleted the depth with his stupid trade. When we need help we got Ritchie, Freose and Ronaldo. The oilers have better depth lmfao

Benning drafted much better and he is an idiot

 

[Kranix]

Daaaarryl! Daaaarryl! Daaaarryl!

 

[Johnny Hoxville]

This simply isn't true. We've spent to the cap almost every year since the 04 run. Our GMs (Sutter, Feaster, Burke, Treliving) have had autonomy to make 99% of trades and signings, with a minor hiccup being the Ben Bishop thing years ago that caused Treliving to negotiate even more autonomy. When Sutter was GM he was given the power to bring in some pretty big name coaches in Keenan and then Brent Sutter. This is a class organization by all accounts and that starts with ownership.

Treliving was given the autonomy to fire a guy who won coach of the year just one year after re-signing him.

It was Treliving's choice in the 2016 offseason to try to find the next Mike Sullivan / Jon Cooper instead of going after a proven name. The problem was that he hired Gulutzan based on some seminar the guy gave at a coaches conference. And you know Gulutzan sold himself well. Smart systems guy. But he just didn't have the overall aptitude to coach at this level, at least not without more seasoning as an AHL head coach. It happens. Bad hire, but that is on the GM. The GM interviewed three guys I believe (Gulutzan, Ward, and Carlyle). IIRC his first choice that offseason was actually the guy who had just won the AHL championship... you might know his name... Jared Bednar but Joe Sakic snapped him up first.

Next Treliving hires a guy he worked with at the World Championships or whatever it was. Treliving didn't even consider someone else. Peters was even well-compensated. But he didn't work out. And worse, his replacement in Carolina proved much better over there.

And then he has to promote Peters' assistant to interim and the guy goes and wins the qualifier round. Sure, we all saw that Ward was in over his head against NHL teams (which the 2020 Jets were not) but Treliving lacked the objectivity to say "hey thanks for your time as interim coach, my friend, you tried your best, but f***, you're just not good enough and Peter friggin Laviolette is". Instead Treliving wanted some trash like "continuity". That is on Treliving.

The worst indictment of our ownership is that they refuse to pay a player to play for another team. But they have softened their stance on that too given how many players Treliving has bought out (Raymond, Brouwer, Bouma, Stone, probably a few others). This was more of an issue for Feaster where we lost the Kotalik trade due to ownership's stubbornness.

Now if you're saying ownership refused to rebuild... that's wrong too. 2013-2014, and 2014-15 were supposed to be rebuild years, and 2015-16 ended up a rebuild year thanks to Tank Commander Hiller. Feaster wasn't even fired by ownership, they hired Burke to do a full evaluation on the organization after the Iginla/Bouwmeester selloffs. That was a high level of due diligence. I don't even like Burke but his hiring as POHO represented a commitment to (perceived) excellence.

If anything set our rebuild back, it was spending too much every offseason instead of seeing cap space for the asset that it actually is. I could write a whole essay on this one but I will be succinct and say ownership was not holding a gun to Treliving's temple telling him that we needed to sign Troy Brouwer or James Neal or Mike Stone or Lance Bouma or Mason Raymond. Ownership didn't waive Paul Byron or Brett Kulak. Ownership hasn't completely mishandled Kylington or Bennett or Phillips. Ownership didn't fail to sign Gaudreau to an eight year deal either, that was management. Ownership didn't trade serious draft capital for Travis Hamonic or Dougie Hamilton (yes I still hate that trade, I wanted Barzal/Connor and was horrified to see both drop to 15). Ownership doesn't feel compelled go acquire plugs like Rinaldo, Grossman, Bollig, Bartkowski etc like clockwork.

You want to see bad ownership look north where fanboyistic nepotism ruled the front office for years and the owner is just a flat out creep. And even then, their ownership is miles ahead of Eugene Melnyk, the worst owner in all of pro sports since Donald Sterling was forcefully removed from that title.

I don't think Treliving is incompetent, but make no mistake I think he is fully responsible for the results on the ice, not ownership. He hired the DumDum named Geoff Ward and he is the one who fails to see the need to fire him and bring in a relatively accomplished head coach like Nate Leaman or Bruce Boudreau or Gerrard Gallant or Lindy Ruff.

I fully agree with this. By all accounts (other than Feaster) our GM’s have been given whatever resources they feel they need to be successful. I don’t think Sutter was a good drafter, but he was the one that actually brought in a proper scouting team and it’s continually expanded since.

We have been able to add a president of Hockey Ops, assistant GM’s, an analytics team, spend to the cap, we rarely hear that ownership interferes.

I think Treliving has done more good than bad, but I think his time has ran it’s course. This organization needs change. Our core needs new leadership to be successful.