Fire(d) Fletcher

[Curufinwe]

If NAK was drafted by Tampa he'd absolutely have 300 NHL games by now. This organization is a joke.

Tampa drafted Katchouk and Raddysh in the 2nd round of 2016, and they have played zero NHL games.

 

[deadhead]

I'm not defending Stewart, just pointing out that a false narrative keeps being repeated, that NAK lost a job to Stewart, when he lost the job to another rookie in Twarynski.

This is part and parcel of the myth that the Flyers play veterans over better prospects - when the actual history shows they often gave the first shot to the kids, and while Farabee won a job, and NAK seized the opportunity when he got a second chance (though he seriously regressed this year), Frost, Twarynski, Bunnaman and Vorobyev all blew their opportunities in 2019. Sanheim struggled as a rookie, but by his second season was 2nd in ES TOI.

Lindblom was quickly moved into the lineup, and into the top 6 the next season ahead of JVR.
Allison was playing on the 2nd line at the end of last season.

I think the real issue is we have too many here who exaggerate the talent and/or the NHL readiness of players, as Laughton shows, some player need a few years to adjust to NHL play, some never do, and a few hit the ice flying.

York and Zamula are talented, but we won't know if they're ready until they show it on ice.
If Zamula and/or York start the season at LHV, if they're NHL ready, they'll dominate the AHL. "Men among boys."

 

[Math the wild rose]

I'm not defending Stewart, just pointing out that a false narrative keeps being repeated, that NAK lost a job to Stewart, when he lost the job to another rookie in Twarynski.

This is part and parcel of the myth that the Flyers play veterans over better prospects - when the actual history shows they often gave the first shot to the kids, and while Farabee won a job, and NAK seized the opportunity when he got a second chance (though he seriously regressed this year), Frost, Twarynski, Bunnaman and Vorobyev all blew their opportunities in 2019. Sanheim struggled as a rookie, but by his second season was 2nd in ES TOI.

Lindblom was quickly moved into the lineup, and into the top 6 the next season ahead of JVR.
Allison was playing on the 2nd line at the end of last season.

I think the real issue is we have too many here who exaggerate the talent and/or the NHL readiness of players, as Laughton shows, some player need a few years to adjust to NHL play, some never do, and a few hit the ice flying.

York and Zamula are talented, but we won't know if they're ready until they show it on ice.
If Zamula and/or York start the season at LHV, if they're NHL ready, they'll dominate the AHL. "Men among boys."

York is ready for the Nhl. You won't have the chance to be impatient to see him with the big club.

 

[Chiringuito]

Easy solution, don't yoyo NAK. Keep him there. The press box guys play routinely. He would have played. No need to send him down, it's not like there's anything left for him to develop in the NHL anyway. Just give him that Stewart spot instead of crowbarring Stewart in. This isnt hard. Stewart was the first choice backup guaranteed to play despite being the worst of the bunch. It was an error made due to bias, devoid of merit.

The only reason Stewart ended up buried is because he was so incredibly bad. If he plays at even a slightly higher level, theyd have happily kept him and played him over better players. We've seen it before.

You're bending over backwards to defend a move that Fletcher said was a mistake. You're disagreeing with Fletcher in your quest to defend everything he does.

Press box guys eat popcorn - they don’t play regularly - not sure how you think they do both

You send him down to the AHL to get him into situations the press box guy would never get - first power play time, end of game time, etc - on the NHL roster that time goes to other folks like Giroux - if you really want to develop a young player you don’t sit them in the press box - that’s where you put folks like Thompson

 

[Rebels57]

Tampa drafted Katchouk and Raddysh in the 2nd round of 2016, and they have played zero NHL games.

Hard to crack the absolute best roster in the NHL. I think one or both make their debuts this season even with the cheap vets they added.

 

[Beef Invictus]

Press box guys eat popcorn - they don’t play regularly - not sure how you think they do both

You send him down to the AHL to get him into situations the press box guy would never get - first power play time, end of game time, etc - on the NHL roster that time goes to other folks like Giroux - if you really want to develop a young player you don’t sit them in the press box - that’s where you put folks like Thompson

He already did plenty of that.

Guys are hurt often. Forward rosters are rarely fully healthy. They play. For example, that's how Stewart played a fifth of the season before it was impossible to ignore he was awful.

 

[Starat327]

He already did plenty of that.

Guys are hurt often. Forward rosters are rarely fully healthy. They play. For example, that's how Stewart played a fifth of the season before it was impossible to ignore he was awful.

Yeah, but his minutes didnt matter because he didnt play in March.

 

[mr4tno]

Signing veterans to minimum salary deals doesn't block prospects since those contracts can be easily buried or the player waived (and at minimum salary there will be takers).

 

[ponder719]

I'm not defending Stewart, just pointing out that a false narrative keeps being repeated, that NAK lost a job to Stewart, when he lost the job to another rookie in Twarynski.

This is part and parcel of the myth that the Flyers play veterans over better prospects - when the actual history shows they often gave the first shot to the kids, and while Farabee won a job, and NAK seized the opportunity when he got a second chance (though he seriously regressed this year), Frost, Twarynski, Bunnaman and Vorobyev all blew their opportunities in 2019. Sanheim struggled as a rookie, but by his second season was 2nd in ES TOI.

Part of where this "myth" comes in is that, over time, as we have these arguments more and more and get more tired of making the same points, what's actually happening gets elided down to "the Flyers don't play the kids." What's actually happening, the real problem, is that the Flyers don't let the kids play their way out of the yips. They get to play to start the season, but they have absolutely no margin for error before they get healthy scratched/demoted. They'll give slack forever to vets who play like trash, but a kid makes a mistake and he's on the Northeast Extension before you can say "What the F is Andreoff doing here?"

 

[deadhead]

Part of where this "myth" comes in is that, over time, as we have these arguments more and more and get more tired of making the same points, what's actually happening gets elided down to "the Flyers don't play the kids." What's actually happening, the real problem, is that the Flyers don't let the kids play their way out of the yips. They get to play to start the season, but they have absolutely no margin for error before they get healthy scratched/demoted. They'll give slack forever to vets who play like trash, but a kid makes a mistake and he's on the Northeast Extension before you can say "What the F is Andreoff doing here?"

What veteran got "slack forever?"

All playoff contenders have short leashes on kids, as Hextall pointed out, the NHL is not a developmental league.

You often see kids need a couple shots before they're ready to take a job, and it's not just the NHL, it often takes the experience playing at the highest level in any sport for a 22 year old to understand what it takes to compete at that level - and they go back to the minors chastened and more committed.

 

[Curufinwe]

Part of where this "myth" comes in is that, over time, as we have these arguments more and more and get more tired of making the same points, what's actually happening gets elided down to "the Flyers don't play the kids." What's actually happening, the real problem, is that the Flyers don't let the kids play their way out of the yips. They get to play to start the season, but they have absolutely no margin for error before they get healthy scratched/demoted.

I recall Provorov getting to play his whole rookie season despite falling over in an heap in his first month.

 

[BiggE]

Fletcher sent a 1st and a 2nd for a mediocre player who will be either massively overpaid in his next deal or he will walk.

AV used Thompson repeatedly against Barzal in the playoffs when any other center on the roster would have been a better choice.

Both these clowns should be fired.

 

[Beef Invictus]

What veteran got "slack forever?"

All playoff contenders have short leashes on kids, as Hextall pointed out, the NHL is not a developmental league.

You often see kids need a couple shots before they're ready to take a job, and it's not just the NHL, it often takes the experience playing at the highest level in any sport for a 22 year old to understand what it takes to compete at that level - and they go back to the minors chastened and more committed.

Hextall's player development theories have shown to be complete trash. Players develop in the NHL all the time. Practically every player does. If you expect players to drop in and be finished products and then punish them for still needing to grow instead of letting them develop, you're going to stall and ruin your prospects.

Sort of like the Flyers have done.

 

[BiggE]

Hextall's player development theories have shown to be complete trash. Players develop in the NHL all the time. Practically every player does. If you expect players to drop in and be finished products and then punish them for still needing to grow instead of letting them develop, you're going to stall and ruin your prospects.

Sort of like the Flyers have done.

Exactly
Funny how in the 2 eraS where the Flyers were at their best, kids were put right into the lineup with little or no minor league time

mid 70s
Barber, Clement, Jim Watson, Bladon

Keenan era
Zezel
Tocchet
Ron Sutter
Derrick Smith
Craven
Eklund
Mellanby

 

[Audible Velvet]

And the seasons, they go round and round
And the painted ponies go up and down
We're captive on the carousel of time
We can't return, we can only look
Behind from where we came
And go round and round and round in the circle game

Appropriate for this organization as it circles back to the same bad udeas again and again

edit: typo and meant to reply to response on previous page. Oopsie!

 

[deadhead]

Exactly
Funny how in the 2 eraS where the Flyers were at their best, kids were put right into the lineup with little or no minor league time

mid 70s
Barber, Clement, Jim Watson, Bladon

Keenan era
Zezel
Tocchet
Ron Sutter
Derrick Smith
Craven
Eklund
Mellanby

Why don't people do some research?
Barber #7, started at 20 years old
Clement #18, 95 AHL games, started at 21 years old
Jim Watson #39, started at 21 after a full (73g) AHL season

Zezel #41, started at 19
Tocchet #121, started at 20
Ron Sutter #4, started at 20
Derek Smith, #44, started at 20
Murray Craven #17, started at 20
Pelle Eklund #161, started at 22 after 2 post-draft SHL seasons (drafted at 20 years old)
Mellanby #27, started at 20

And of course, you're cherrypicking the players you remember, which will generally be the most talented and thus more likely to start at a younger age.

Provorov, TK, Farabee and Couts all were starters at 19
Lindblom at 22
Sanheim 21-22
Giroux at 21
JVR at 20

 

[snoop88]

I don't think this team should be chalk full of 20 year old AHLers, but it should be pretty simple that a few talented youngsters should be in the lineup. York, Frost, Allison, namely. It's not rocket science and it's not a ton of players.

 

[Beef Invictus]

Why don't people do some research?
Barber #7, started at 20 years old
Clement #18, 95 AHL games, started at 21 years old
Jim Watson #39, started at 21 after a full (73g) AHL season

Zezel #41, started at 19
Tocchet #121, started at 20
Ron Sutter #4, started at 20
Derek Smith, #44, started at 20
Murray Craven #17, started at 20
Pelle Eklund #161, started at 22 after 2 post-draft SHL seasons (drafted at 20 years old)
Mellanby #27, started at 20

And of course, you're cherrypicking the players you remember, which will generally be the most talented and thus more likely to start at a younger age.

Provorov, TK, Farabee and Couts all were starters at 19
Lindblom at 22
Sanheim 21-22
Giroux at 21
JVR at 20

Really scraping the bottom to keep up if you've gotta include Giroux and JVR from an eon ago.

You have accidentally confirmed the trend I've been talking about. None of the players you listed are depth players. They sit in the top 6 or top 4. BiggE's list includes depth players.

If a young player is good enough to immediately sit comfortably among the top (aka too good to bury) then they don't get buried, though they're still likely to be jerked around for no reason. If they are "merely" good enough to be a depth player, then their spot is given over to a veteran instead of seeing what upside they may have.

It's a great way to get the least out of your prospect pool after spending years investing heavily into it. What a waste of time.

 

[Starat327]

Really scraping the bottom to keep up if you've gotta include Giroux and JVR from an eon ago.

You have accidentally confirmed the trend I've been talking about. None of the players you listed are depth players. They sit in the top 6 or top 4. BiggE's list includes depth players.

If a young player is good enough to immediately sit comfortably among the top (aka too good to bury) then they don't get buried, though they're still likely to be jerked around for no reason. If they are "merely" good enough to be a depth player, then their spot is given over to a veteran instead of seeing what upside they may have.

It's a great way to get the least out of your prospect pool after spending years investing heavily into it. What a waste of time.

Im glad you said it, i didnt have the energy to call out that hes literally proving the point that was trying to be made.

 

[Flyerfan4life]

Im glad you said it, i didnt have the energy to call out that hes literally proving the point that was trying to be made.

i honestly wonder why the Flyers even go to the entry draft..

might aswell just trade all their picks every year for other teams old cast off dogs..

its what ends up happening to the roster anyway.

 

[deadhead]

I don't think this team should be chalk full of 20 year old AHLers, but it should be pretty simple that a few talented youngsters should be in the lineup. York, Frost, Allison, namely. It's not rocket science and it's not a ton of players.

One of the luxuries of a deep team is you can marinate young players in the AHL until they force you to promote them, like Giroux did by simply dominating the AHL.

Last year Frost was benched the first two games, behind an "over the hill" veteran?
Couts - Hayes - Patrick - Laughton were your centers, who exactly was Frost going to beat out?
Now it turned out Patrick never regained his mojo, but if you're playing a young center, he had more upside than Frost.

If Yandle starts the season in the Ghost role (sheltered 3rd pair, PP1) it'll be because York didn't show enough in TC to give them confidence that he's ready for a major role. It's not the end of the world if the LHV defense includes York (20), Zamula (21), Hogberg (23), Wylie (21), Millman (20). And it makes more sense for Morin as the 7th D-man, practicing with the team and getting spot starts against teams like the Islanders. York and Zamula will force their way to Philly by dominating AHL play.

Forward is a little different, something is wrong if Thompson is playing, probably a combination of Laczynski being on IR for the first couple months (slow recovery from his hip), Frost struggling at 3C, and Bunnaman not taking the 4C job. Even then, given G, Lindblom, JVR, Farabee at LW, and TK, Atkinson, Allison, NAK at RW, Laughton should then be playing center over Thompson.

The wildcards at LHV will be Ratcliffe, if he makes a jump this season, and Foerster and Wisdom, if they can stay in the AHL.
The wildcards come April will be JOB, Brink, N Cates, St Ivany and Attard, all of which will probably go directly to LHV if signed, but could push their way to Philly in short order like Allison did last year.

 

[deadhead]

Really scraping the bottom to keep up if you've gotta include Giroux and JVR from an eon ago.

You have accidentally confirmed the trend I've been talking about. None of the players you listed are depth players. They sit in the top 6 or top 4. BiggE's list includes depth players.

If a young player is good enough to immediately sit comfortably among the top (aka too good to bury) then they don't get buried, though they're still likely to be jerked around for no reason. If they are "merely" good enough to be a depth player, then their spot is given over to a veteran instead of seeing what upside they may have.

It's a great way to get the least out of your prospect pool after spending years investing heavily into it. What a waste of time.

No, it doesn't.
Clement, 27 ES points his first full season, 14 in 39g his second season, 32 his third season
Watson made 4 all star teams
Zezel was a top 6 talent, 36, 37, 53 ES points his first three seasons
Tochett, 37, 30 45 ES points his first three seasons
Sutter, 36, 39, 56 ES points his first three seasons
Derrick Smith, 37, 12, 31 ES points his first three seasons, more of a "flash in the pan"
Murray Craven, 49, 47, 30, 48 ES points his first four Flyer seasons

Couts, Giroux, JVR just show continuity, top young players play earlier than marginal players, it's one reason they get drafted higher, they're more NHL ready.

One reason some players are older when they enter the NHL is b/c they go to college, and like college enough that they stay for their junior or even senior seasons - Hayes, Allison, Laczynski, now York, Attard, St Ivany, Brink, JOB, N Cates.

 

[Beef Invictus]

No, it doesn't.
Clement, 27 ES points his first full season, 14 in 39g his second season, 32 his third season
Watson made 4 all star teams
Zezel was a top 6 talent, 36, 37, 53 ES points his first three seasons
Tochett, 37, 30 45 ES points his first three seasons
Sutter, 36, 39, 56 ES points his first three seasons
Derrick Smith, 37, 12, 31 ES points his first three seasons, more of a "flash in the pan"
Murray Craven, 49, 47, 30, 48 ES points his first four Flyer seasons

Couts, Giroux, JVR just show continuity, top young players play earlier than marginal players, it's one reason they get drafted higher, they're more NHL ready.

One reason some players are older when they enter the NHL is b/c they go to college, and like college enough that they stay for their junior or even senior seasons - Hayes, Allison, Laczynski, now York, Attard, St Ivany, Brink, JOB, N Cates.

Oh, are you really directly comparing scoring across eras without correction and needed context? Oof.

Double Oof at forgetting Clement was a third liner. That's depth. Apparently you also seem to think the Flyers had more than 6 players in their top 6 in the Tocchet era. It can't be true, someone had to be the depth players.

 

[BiggE]

What puzzles me the most is how anyone can defend a organization with the following track record of success since 2012:
2012-13 missed the playoffs
2013-14 lost in the 1st round
2014-15 missed the playoffs
2015-16 lost in the first round
2016-17 missed the playoffs
2017-18 lost in the first round and would have been swept if Neuvirth doesn't give them 1974 Bernie Parent type goaltending
2018-19 missed the playoffs
2019-20 lost in the 2nd round
2020-21 missed the playoffs yet again

Don't give me b.s. excuses, professional sports is a results oriented business and the results, quite frankly, have been shit.
9 seasons, made the playoffs only 4 times, aggregate series record 1-4, playoff game record 14-18.

This is the same organization that over this period time failed miserably to bring in upgrades in the net and gave us multiple seasons of such standout players as Chris Vandevelde, Brandon Manning, and Robert Hagg. The same organization that thought a washed up Nate Thompson should be matched against Matt Barzal and then re-signed when he's pushing 37. The same organization that kept Dave Hakstol behind the bench for 3 plus seasons and has such stalwarts as Mike Yeo and Michel Therrien on the current staff.

There is no defending this organization, they have been bad for quite a while and they fully deserve to have every move questioned and scrutinized at this point. Are they the worst organization in the NHL? No, I'll save that for Buffalo, Edmonton and Arizona. But they are closer to the bottom than the top and they've given us no reason to show any faith in their decision making.

 

[Starat327]

Lol.