KCbus
Registered User
They looked awfully lifeless in Tampa when they were parading around with that Cup.
Fire/Don't Fire/Discuss Torts II
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KCbus
Registered User
They looked awfully lifeless in Tampa when they were parading around with that Cup.
KJ Dangler
Registered User
What our fans fail to recognize is that we were off to a pretty mediocre start , with skill and decisions at Torts disposal . It wasn’t until a mass exodus of the regulars , that Torts had to play who he had left, and had to go to a defensive / grind it out , rather than his safe is death style . That worked until Jones went out , now the team is in a free fall .
Double-Shift Lasse
Just post better
- Dec 31, 2017
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Thats funny. I thought they were off to a mediocre start because the skill guys they rely on were all struggling. Then as they started to put it together, the injuries started happening. The guys that were called up, came up and did their jobs and limited mistakes. A couple guys got healthy, then the injuries started up again and this time it was just too many. I think the majority of people here understand it. It is you that doesn't.
KJ Dangler
Registered User
I think you need to look at records and game logs, your memory isn’t correct
- Dec 31, 2017
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I remember pretty clearly they started winning in mid December, about the time you were saying Torts was going to be replaced by Maclean, then they lost Atkinson, Bjorkstrand, and Korpi in a 5 game span. They kept winning and eventually Cam and Bjorkstrand came back, then the injuries kept happening with Wennberg ,Kukan, then Cam was hurt again, Jones went out and it has just become too much. Now Nash is out, Elvis might have a concussion, so it isn't getting better. I may be getting older, but my memory hasn't totally left me yet. I don't know what season you've been watching.
CBJWerenski8
Formerly CBJWennberg10 (RIP Kivi)
- Jun 13, 2009
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Wasn't sure where to put this, but it has been a concern with me with regards to the CBJ. Not sure if this is Jarmo, Torts, ownership, a mix, or whatever, but it is a growing trend.
Jarmo is seen as a harsh negotiator. The GM poll says he's hard to trade with, and the agent poll said he's hard to negotiate deals with. However, he's not so harsh that nobody signs here via UFA, examples being Horton, Duclair, Nyquist, and Gagner. Maybe not the top of the top UFA's, but still solid players nevertheless.
The issue isn't really with acquiring talent. It's keeping it. Nothing could have prevented what happened with Panarin, Bobrovsky, Duchene, and Dzingel, so we're just going to ignore those situations because the organization did everything to keep some of these players, and the others were mutual decisions to move on.
Jarmo's hard line tactics have been a factor in driving away talent. Bobrovsky was the first one after his first Vezina season. There was talk we were trying to trade him, and that he was considering going back to Russia due to the issues with that contract. Granted, there was nothing like Bob's case. He was an unproven backup thrust into a starting role and he carried it to a Vezina. His body of work wasn't overly impressive, so that was a really hard contract to maneuver and it was pre-Torts.
Next one (which was also pre-Torts) was Johansen, parts 1 and 2. Now I don't want to cry over 6 year old spilled milk, but there was a lot of blame to go on for both sides that made the relationship toxic. First was Johansen and his agent requesting a 4-5 year deal to walk straight to UFA, which was basically a declaration of negotiating war, and then taken a step further by JD calling Johansen's agent an extortionist. This led to missed time in training camp, and even though he made it to the start of the season it genuinely soured the club to the player (due to his representation) and perhaps vice versa. Fast forward to the Torts era for part 2, and he singles him out due to lack of fitness/care, and the mysterious illness arises, and shortly after he's moved on to Nashville. I think most (all?) of us would do the trade again today, but that still doesn't show good signs of fair and honest negotiating n behalf of the CBJ in regards to keeping players.
Then we have Anderson, parts 1 and 2. We all know the first battle, time was missed in camp, but like Johansen he returned before the season started after a small stint in Cleveland. This one arguably grew even more toxic than the Johansen one, due to Anderson's camp asking for a trade. This time it wasn't just the CBJ playing hard ball. Eventually things worked out and Andy has been good for us since, but now we're about to enter part 2, and from most reports it sounds like that's going to lead to a divorce.
That's three very good players. And while I know this is cherry picking and there are plenty of examples to the contrary (Jones deal, Werenski deal, Atkinson deal, etc) it just makes me uneasy that just because players are RFA's and not UFA's we tend to try to grind out every last penny out of the players, and it seems to sour relationships. I don't think Torts drives away players, at least not enough in the way that people will refuse to come here, but I am concerned of our managements hard line approach when it comes to negotiating with our own home grown players. Who's next? PLD? Bjorkstrand?
Maybe there is other examples I missed, such as Derek MacKenzie (as a UFA) back in the day, but I tried to mostly look at home grown players or stars.
In no way am I advocating firing Torts for this (and I'm not saying fire Jarmo either), but its just a concern.
Jarmo is seen as a harsh negotiator. The GM poll says he's hard to trade with, and the agent poll said he's hard to negotiate deals with. However, he's not so harsh that nobody signs here via UFA, examples being Horton, Duclair, Nyquist, and Gagner. Maybe not the top of the top UFA's, but still solid players nevertheless.
The issue isn't really with acquiring talent. It's keeping it. Nothing could have prevented what happened with Panarin, Bobrovsky, Duchene, and Dzingel, so we're just going to ignore those situations because the organization did everything to keep some of these players, and the others were mutual decisions to move on.
Jarmo's hard line tactics have been a factor in driving away talent. Bobrovsky was the first one after his first Vezina season. There was talk we were trying to trade him, and that he was considering going back to Russia due to the issues with that contract. Granted, there was nothing like Bob's case. He was an unproven backup thrust into a starting role and he carried it to a Vezina. His body of work wasn't overly impressive, so that was a really hard contract to maneuver and it was pre-Torts.
Next one (which was also pre-Torts) was Johansen, parts 1 and 2. Now I don't want to cry over 6 year old spilled milk, but there was a lot of blame to go on for both sides that made the relationship toxic. First was Johansen and his agent requesting a 4-5 year deal to walk straight to UFA, which was basically a declaration of negotiating war, and then taken a step further by JD calling Johansen's agent an extortionist. This led to missed time in training camp, and even though he made it to the start of the season it genuinely soured the club to the player (due to his representation) and perhaps vice versa. Fast forward to the Torts era for part 2, and he singles him out due to lack of fitness/care, and the mysterious illness arises, and shortly after he's moved on to Nashville. I think most (all?) of us would do the trade again today, but that still doesn't show good signs of fair and honest negotiating n behalf of the CBJ in regards to keeping players.
Then we have Anderson, parts 1 and 2. We all know the first battle, time was missed in camp, but like Johansen he returned before the season started after a small stint in Cleveland. This one arguably grew even more toxic than the Johansen one, due to Anderson's camp asking for a trade. This time it wasn't just the CBJ playing hard ball. Eventually things worked out and Andy has been good for us since, but now we're about to enter part 2, and from most reports it sounds like that's going to lead to a divorce.
That's three very good players. And while I know this is cherry picking and there are plenty of examples to the contrary (Jones deal, Werenski deal, Atkinson deal, etc) it just makes me uneasy that just because players are RFA's and not UFA's we tend to try to grind out every last penny out of the players, and it seems to sour relationships. I don't think Torts drives away players, at least not enough in the way that people will refuse to come here, but I am concerned of our managements hard line approach when it comes to negotiating with our own home grown players. Who's next? PLD? Bjorkstrand?
Maybe there is other examples I missed, such as Derek MacKenzie (as a UFA) back in the day, but I tried to mostly look at home grown players or stars.
In no way am I advocating firing Torts for this (and I'm not saying fire Jarmo either), but its just a concern.
EspenK
Registered User
- Sep 25, 2011
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^^^^^^^^^^^
I have had similar concerns. Even Zach's 3 yr 5 mill sounds like a compromise deal that could very well bite the Jackets down the road. He should have been signed for 7 years at say 7 mm or so imo.
PLD sounded like he was a bit pissed at Torts' defensive (lack of offensive) approach. Plus it would seem to me there should gave been some discussion of a new deal for PLD already reported. If not him for the next years who?
I have had similar concerns. Even Zach's 3 yr 5 mill sounds like a compromise deal that could very well bite the Jackets down the road. He should have been signed for 7 years at say 7 mm or so imo.
PLD sounded like he was a bit pissed at Torts' defensive (lack of offensive) approach. Plus it would seem to me there should gave been some discussion of a new deal for PLD already reported. If not him for the next years who?
koteka
Registered User
Well, it seems to me the options are:
Overpay for 5 year contracts like Toronto
Get good deals but include no move clauses like Tampa
Trade people before extending them like Ottawa
Have contentious negotiations sometimes
Unfortunately for the Jackets (and other teams), all these young guys are looking at the Toronto contracts
But what you should really be concerned with is the possibility of an offer sheet for PLD. What if a halfway decent team with cap space like the Avs comes after him? We’d match, but it would mean more money for less term.
Overpay for 5 year contracts like Toronto
Get good deals but include no move clauses like Tampa
Trade people before extending them like Ottawa
Have contentious negotiations sometimes
Unfortunately for the Jackets (and other teams), all these young guys are looking at the Toronto contracts
But what you should really be concerned with is the possibility of an offer sheet for PLD. What if a halfway decent team with cap space like the Avs comes after him? We’d match, but it would mean more money for less term.
I hear what you're saying, but re: the first 2 examples (Bob, Johansen), I'm glad CBJ isn't paying them what their current teams are. I think Jarmo correctly assessed their value and was unwilling to overpay. They thought they were worth more than they are, and that's at least a contributing factor to why they're not here anymore. Fine by me.
Anderson remains to be seen. I wouldn't count him as an example yet.
It's pretty normal for salary disputes to be unpleasant in any business. The NHL just has a much more public nature than most businesses, so we all know about the unpleasantness and thus over-analyze every tweet and as humans, assign blame. If players are getting pissed when Jarmo (correctly) tells them they're not worth as many millions as they think they are, and they consequently find that money on a different team, generally speaking I'm OK with it.
I wish we still had Calvert, Mackenzie, etc, but at the end of the day those guys aren't going to make/break the roster.
spintheblackcircle
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- Mar 1, 2002
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Bumping my post here, I was one of the last to say it was time for him to go, and from this point forward they won 5 in a row and went 21-8-10 the rest of the way.
So whenever I think I know what I am talking about......here is more proof that I don't.
Iron Balls McGinty
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- Aug 5, 2005
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I think I heard at least 2, maybe 3 different people on Sirius NHL Radio say that Torts is going to win the Jack Adams again this season. They seemed pretty confident in their assessment that he pretty much has it locked up because of how Columbus played after losing everyone last summer.
ClevelandJacketFan
Awesome Mascots!
Makes sense.
Torts has made me a believer in him. He can stay here until he wants to retire.
He has his flaws, and the biggest of stars might never want to play for him, but the way he has gotten everyone to buy in this year has been impressive and I think he's a big reason that Zach and Jones are where they are now.
Socks
Stuff and Things Man
Torts is the best coach we’ve ever had. Hitch was awesome but he didn’t get as much out of his teams, though I’ll certainly concede that the caliber of player we have now is far greater than it was then.
For all that people bitch about him Torts’ players will go to war for him and that’s what matters.
For all that people bitch about him Torts’ players will go to war for him and that’s what matters.
spintheblackcircle
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Cowumbus
Registered User
Those are ifs of ifs. It's if Dubois wants to go and if it is because of person x. Both steps low probability.
Double-Shift Lasse
Just post better
Iron Balls McGinty
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- Aug 5, 2005
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Back to Torts being the topic here. I sort of feel like he is done after this year. Considering the fact he won't talk about a new contract and doesn't have one essentially coming into a lame duck season along with some of the stuff he said in his recent interview with Bob and Jody it is starting to sound like this team is going to eventually go down a different path.
Viqsi
"that chick from Ohio"
I'm just wondering who folks would propose as replacements. My favorite candidate for the last few years is with the Sabres now, so. 
I'm not in any hurry to replace him, but he's getting close to retirement age and I want a backup plan.
I'm not in any hurry to replace him, but he's getting close to retirement age and I want a backup plan.
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