Fire Deboer

[Pinkfloyd]

I don't see how Hasso can blame EK65 not resigning on Wilson when they both flew out to see Karlsson before the trade. Hasso 100% signed off on that so it would make no sense to fire someone because a player they knew was a flight risk didn't resign.

If the Sharks fail it's 100% on Jones/PDB/Injuries. I can't put any of that on Wilson. Despite how everyone here thinks, I'd argue PDB is still an above average coach and was really good in the 2016 playoffs, lead us to the 2nd round with a banged up team and has us top 5 in the league again this year. I guess that's on Wilson if he coaches like a moron in the playoffs and we get destroyed but I dont see PDB being the reason we lose a series. Jones sucks this year and that contract isn't great but given who he was before the extension I can't really fault Wilson for betting on him when he did to get a lower cap hit. Imagine if Jones continued to get better and suddenly he wants 6-7m a year...you're really going to let him walk?

Wilson bought himself 3-5 years in my opinion based on the 2016 run and the team he built this year. He revamped the our scouting/drafting which everyone wanted and he got Kane/Karlsson for next to nothing.

I continue to wonder what would make people on this board happy besides a cup. You can't demand perfection...it's not a realistic ask. I'd rather be the Sharks than the Oilers/Ducks/Coyotes/ect

I'll never understand how one can somehow absolve the GM for the failings of people he chose to bring in. I'm not at this point advocating the firing of DW but even if Hasso signs off on the EK65 trade, it's still on DW if he walks. Either he paid that price knowing he would walk and convinced Hasso to do so or believed he could get it done and was wrong. That's on him still. Is it fireable? I don't think so but he has to be held to account for that. The results of the team regardless of the context still fall on the manager for some of the responsibility. It's just a matter of whether one thinks it rises to the level of dismissal. There have been times I have thought so for DW and others I don't. I don't think this one is if it plays out to where they lose to Vegas whenever and EK65 walks but I can understand the reasoning behind one believing it is especially given how long he's been here and not gotten the job done.

We can dunk on the Oilers and Ducks all we want but they at least have a Cup to their name. We can't exactly make a reasonable comparison to the Coyotes either given their resources compared to ours but if they had a Cup to their name, I'd say the same thing. A guy like DW doesn't deserve the job security he has gotten especially among the fans when he hasn't won a championship. That's his job and he's had plenty of time to accomplish it but has failed to do so.

 

[TomasHertlsRooster]

I don't see how Hasso can blame EK65 not resigning on Wilson when they both flew out to see Karlsson before the trade. Hasso 100% signed off on that so it would make no sense to fire someone because a player they knew was a flight risk didn't resign.

If the Sharks fail it's 100% on Jones/PDB/Injuries. I can't put any of that on Wilson. Despite how everyone here thinks, I'd argue PDB is still an above average coach and was really good in the 2016 playoffs, lead us to the 2nd round with a banged up team and has us top 5 in the league again this year. I guess that's on Wilson if he coaches like a moron in the playoffs and we get destroyed but I dont see PDB being the reason we lose a series. Jones sucks this year and that contract isn't great but given who he was before the extension I can't really fault Wilson for betting on him when he did to get a lower cap hit. Imagine if Jones continued to get better and suddenly he wants 6-7m a year...you're really going to let him walk?

Wilson bought himself 3-5 years in my opinion based on the 2016 run and the team he built this year. He revamped the our scouting/drafting which everyone wanted and he got Kane/Karlsson for next to nothing.

I continue to wonder what would make people on this board happy besides a cup. You can't demand perfection...it's not a realistic ask. I'd rather be the Sharks than the Oilers/Ducks/Coyotes/ect

If the Sharks fail because of PDB/Jones, that is 100% on Wilson. He is the one who gave extensions to both of them and made it 100% clear that they were the guys. Throughout this season, both have struggled tremendously, and he has made it very clear that they are our guys going forward in those positions. He could have traded for a goaltender or signed a head coach.

For your talk of “who he was before the extension”, Jones was already declining player before the extension. His age 25/26 season was significantly better than his age 26/27 season. There was no reason to bet such a massive contract on him significantly improving by his age 28/29 season (year 1 of the contract) and then continuing that going forward. That’s just irresponsible management of the salary cap without considering aging trends.

 

[SjMilhouse]

I hope Wilson does get fired because it's going to be a blast here when some other GM comes in and completely shits the bed and we become some middle of the pack piece of shit team who maybe makes the playoffs every other year and never does anything. But at least it isnt that idiot Wilson

 

[TomasHertlsRooster]

I hope Wilson does get fired because it's going to be a blast here when some other GM comes in and completely ****s the bed and we become some middle of the pack piece of **** team who maybe makes the playoffs every other year and never does anything. But at least it isnt that idiot Wilson

Why are you acting like the people being critical are the ones with a dogmatic agenda? Posters like PF and I are never shy to praise DW for his great moves and PF literally just said “I’m not at this point advocating the firing of Doug Wilson”.

Posters like you and the other members of the “DW can do no wrong” are generally the ones who tend to be more set in stone with their views on DW and the decisions he makes. Kind of a pot calling the kettle black situation here except the kettle isn’t even black lol.

 

[Pinkfloyd]

I hope Wilson does get fired because it's going to be a blast here when some other GM comes in and completely ****s the bed and we become some middle of the pack piece of **** team who maybe makes the playoffs every other year and never does anything. But at least it isnt that idiot Wilson

Outside of 2016, the only difference between that middle of the pack piece of shit team and the Sharks is that the Sharks did make the playoffs every year and never did anything. DW's been at this for 16 years. I remember a lot of people over the years loving the statement of something something insanity is doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results when it comes to specific players yet I never see that as it relates to the GM.

There are crap GM's who have won Stanley Cups. If DW was as good as people who vociferously support him believe then he should've yielded one himself by now but hasn't.

DW is no idiot but he has very glaring issues as a manager from his drafting to his player acquisition. I'm not expecting perfection out of a GM either. I'm saying that 15 seasons is plenty of time to implement whatever vision for a team you have and can assess the results. The results are a mixed bag and sometimes you need to change in vision and direction. It may not yield better results but it might add elements that future managers can utilize to achieve the ultimate goal...which is the Cup and not playoff appearances.

 

[The Ice Hockey Dude]

Serious question.

If we go into the playoffs with a healthy roster (minus Simek) and still lose to Vegas in the 1st round, does PDB get fired?

Good question, this team has allot of depth, to much to lose to Vegas in the first round. My guess is it depends if he signs a new contract before then, if he does not id fire him or not renew. If he does DW will keep him.

 

[Barrie22]

Good question, this team has allot of depth, to much to lose to Vegas in the first round. My guess is it depends if he signs a new contract before then, if he does not id fire him or not renew. If he does DW will keep him.

He has already signed a new contract apparently.

 

[Herschel]

DW is no idiot but he has very glaring issues as a manager from his drafting to his player acquisition. I'm not expecting perfection out of a GM either. I'm saying that 15 seasons is plenty of time to implement whatever vision for a team you have and can assess the results. The results are a mixed bag and sometimes you need to change in vision and direction. It may not yield better results but it might add elements that future managers can utilize to achieve the ultimate goal...which is the Cup and not playoff appearances.

I think one factor this viewpoint may not take into consideration is that over that 15 years there have been significant rules changes/adjustments which have required different visions or directions to be successful.

I agree that DW has his flaws but one attribute he has shown is the ability to recognize shifts in the league and adjust his direction and vision on the fly. I am not sure you can name another GM in the league that executes the re-tool better.

 

[Pinkfloyd]

I think one factor this viewpoint may not take into consideration is that over that 15 years there have been significant rules changes/adjustments which have required different visions or directions to be successful.

I agree that DW has his flaws but one attribute he has shown is the ability to recognize shifts in the league and adjust his direction and vision on the fly. I am not sure you can name another GM in the league that executes the re-tool better.

Yeah but how many GM's genuinely get the same sort of opportunity that DW has had? It's basically him, Poile, and Holland. Definitely better than those two on the adjustment front but most GM's don't get that opportunity. DW's had three or four of those opportunities but the results are still more or less the same.

 

[OffSydes]

We have to judge DW during Greg Jamison era and post Greg Jamison era differently. It seems like Jamison has far more budget restrictions than our current overload.

 

[Dicdonya]

I think one factor this viewpoint may not take into consideration is that over that 15 years there have been significant rules changes/adjustments which have required different visions or directions to be successful.

I agree that DW has his flaws but one attribute he has shown is the ability to recognize shifts in the league and adjust his direction and vision on the fly. I am not sure you can name another GM in the league that executes the re-tool better.

One of my issues with DW is he seems to always be chasing some other GM/Coaches blueprint. Yeah he is willing to change his vision on the fly like you said, but it always seems to be changing to whoever just beat us in the playoffs, or won the cup. In other words he seems to follow, not forge his own vision or path to getting a cup.

So I do appreciate that he is willing to change, I just also wish he would be the one to set the trend for once, instead of following others.

 

[Barrie22]

One of my issues with DW is he seems to always be chasing some other GM/Coaches blueprint. Yeah he is willing to change his vision on the fly like you said, but it always seems to be changing to whoever just beat us in the playoffs, or won the cup. In other words he seems to follow, not forge his own vision or path to getting a cup.

So I do appreciate that he is willing to change, I just also wish he would be the one to set the trend for once, instead of following others.

And if he liked a player in his prime he will trade for him or pick him up in ufa when he is at his expiry date.

 

[Pinkfloyd]

We have to judge DW during Greg Jamison era and post Greg Jamison era differently. It seems like Jamison has far more budget restrictions than our current overload.

This would basically split the DW regime from 2003-11 and 2011-19. I don't think the results and the differences between the eras are all that meaningful. They were a playoff team regardless and competitive. I don't know if that really helps DW's cause as it relates to his status now because one could make the argument they were more competitive prior to Jamison's departure from an on-ice perspective and also theoretically have more resources at their disposal now as compared to that era.

 

[Quid Pro Clowe]

I'd rather judge him on the Jenna Jamison era.

 

[OrrNumber4]

I do think a large part of why DW skated by pre-Plattner was because the Sharks were not a financial powerhouse and Wilson did bring the team financial success (I have no hard proof that the Sharks were financially successful, but just comments that it was an important part of the job).

I've generally maintained that for an organization that constantly preaches about accountability (even on their locker room it says "to whom much is given, much is expected"), they don't seem to realize that it starts at the top. They've constantly let go of secondary/tertiary players, ACs, secondary staff; hell even the scouting and marketing departments have seen two shakeups in DW's term. But the top brass always seems to skate on by (Ron Wilson being an exception).

 

[TomasHertlsRooster]

Looking at Kopitar’s opposition on Natural Stat Trick really shows how bad DeBoer did tonight.

3:16 Vs. Haley - Shots 5-0 Goals 1-0
4:54 Vs. Goodrow - Shots 5-1 Goals 1-1

As a whole, Haley played 8:55 and Goodrow played 12:54. That means that for more than 1/3 of their TOI, Haley/Goodrow were our against Kopitar.

Meanwhile, looking at Kopitar’s performance against our top players:

6:57 Vs. Meier - Shots 1-4 Goals 0-1
8:46 Vs. Hertl - Shots 7-5 Goals 0-1

It’s never a good idea to saddle your 4th line with useless players like Haley, but when you do that, you can’t let them get caught out there for over 3 minutes against Anze f***ing Kopitar. You can’t just go casually rolling 4 lines when you have a player like Haley on your 4th line and a player like Goodrow on your 2nd line. If the opposing coach plays Kopitar for over 20 minutes and it’s hard to get away from him, you need to respond by throwing out your stars who are actually winning that matchup.

I think it’s funny that DeBoer tried to blame tonight’s loss on Jones because if there’s one guy I have to pin this one on, it’s DeBoer and this is the second game in a row I’ve said that.

 

[mooncalf]

I'm a fickle Sharks fan, I'm back on the Fire Deboer train (though not until the offseason and barring a deep playoff run). But I'm aware enough to know that this won't happen. I think part of the reason I'm apt to turn on him quickly whenever we struggle is just that I don't find him at all likable.

 

[Fistfullofbeer]

Looking at Kopitar’s opposition on Natural Stat Trick really shows how bad DeBoer did tonight.

3:16 Vs. Haley - Shots 5-0 Goals 1-0
4:54 Vs. Goodrow - Shots 5-1 Goals 1-1

As a whole, Haley played 8:55 and Goodrow played 12:54. That means that for more than 1/3 of their TOI, Haley/Goodrow were our against Kopitar.

Meanwhile, looking at Kopitar’s performance against our top players:

6:57 Vs. Meier - Shots 1-4 Goals 0-1
8:46 Vs. Hertl - Shots 7-5 Goals 0-1

It’s never a good idea to saddle your 4th line with useless players like Haley, but when you do that, you can’t let them get caught out there for over 3 minutes against Anze ****ing Kopitar. You can’t just go casually rolling 4 lines when you have a player like Haley on your 4th line and a player like Goodrow on your 2nd line. If the opposing coach plays Kopitar for over 20 minutes and it’s hard to get away from him, you need to respond by throwing out your stars who are actually winning that matchup.

I think it’s funny that DeBoer tried to blame tonight’s loss on Jones because if there’s one guy I have to pin this one on, it’s DeBoer and this is the second game in a row I’ve said that.

I don't recall PDB ever saying that he needs to do a better job to get players ready. Ever.

That probably bothers me more than it should. He has blamed the players multiple times over his tenure here as coach for the team not playing well. He gets out-coached and is late in making adjustments but is above blame.

 

[stator]

I think it’s funny that DeBoer tried to blame tonight’s loss on Jones because if there’s one guy I have to pin this one on, it’s DeBoer and this is the second game in a row I’ve said that.

Maybe there's a deal with Quenneville and Pete has been told he will not be back?

I would think something like that has happened to cause Pete to be in the "I don't give a *&^%" mode.

 

[Lateralis]

"Steady as she goes!" Captain PDB of RMS Titanic.

 

[Barrie22]

Maybe there's a deal with Quenneville and Pete has been told he will not be back?

I would think something like that has happened to cause Pete to be in the "I don't give a *&^%" mode.

If wilson told a coach he isn't coming back and didnt fire him on the spot then he is worse then we all thought.

 

[Fistfullofbeer]

If wilson told a coach he isn't coming back and didnt fire him on the spot then he is worse then we all thought.

Do we know when PDB's current contract runs through? Is this the last season on it? I heard rumors about him already been extended but no announcement, in typical fashion, from the organization.

I agree that DW would not tell PDB he is not coming back but keep him around. What I would have expected him to do is tell PDB that the whole organization will be re-evaluated at the end of the season and they are not doing extensions right now? Or some other excuse like that.

 

[landshark]

Do we know when PDB's current contract runs through? Is this the last season on it? I heard rumors about him already been extended but no announcement, in typical fashion, from the organization.

I agree that DW would not tell PDB he is not coming back but keep him around. What I would have expected him to do is tell PDB that the whole organization will be re-evaluated at the end of the season and they are not doing extensions right now? Or some other excuse like that.

Pete DeBoer deserves more time to get the Sharks sorted out...

I don't have a subscription to "the athletic." But if it didn't come from an official Shark press release who knows??

Kurz says there's a signed extension already according to "FtF":
Sharks reportedly extend Peter DeBoer with multi-year contract

No way to actually know since the Sharks haven't made any announcement. Schrodinger's contract extension...

 

[TomasHertlsRooster]

I do think a large part of why DW skated by pre-Plattner was because the Sharks were not a financial powerhouse and Wilson did bring the team financial success (I have no hard proof that the Sharks were financially successful, but just comments that it was an important part of the job).

I've generally maintained that for an organization that constantly preaches about accountability (even on their locker room it says "to whom much is given, much is expected"), they don't seem to realize that it starts at the top. They've constantly let go of secondary/tertiary players, ACs, secondary staff; hell even the scouting and marketing departments have seen two shakeups in DW's term. But the top brass always seems to skate on by (Ron Wilson being an exception).

The organization preaches accountability but they don’t really enforce it.

You are correct that it starts at the top with coaching staff consistently underperforming with strong rosters and getting a pass - Ron Wilson got 6 full seasons, McLellan got 7, and DeBoer is in his 4th and has a contract extension that starts next year. None of these coaches won a Stanley Cup and only DeBoer made the Stanley Cup Finals. There are two kinds of teams who give their coaches that kind of tenure and job security with those kinds of results and one of those are budget teams for whom these kinds of results are considered a success. The other are losers.

Then you look further down the lineup and you continue to see the lack of accountability. Top players like Jones, Couture, and Vlasic were all coming off mediocre, underwhelming performances when they got extended a year before they needed to be. An organization which places an emphasis on accountability would probably have handled those situations differently.

It seems like a large chunk of the organizational accountability is disproportionately placed on depth players like Lukas Radil, Antti Suomela, Jannik Hansen, and Tim Heed. Radil struggled to produce in a 4th line role over a small sample size and was promptly relegated to the shuttle between the minors and the press box despite still posting excellent defensive results. Suomela struggled to produce in a 4th line role over a small sample size and was promptly relegated to the AHL and publicly called out by his coach for not being hard to play against. Jannik Hansen didn’t score a goal for like 45 games but still put up a good number of assists and solid defensive results. Tim Heed got beat to the outside by Jake Virtanen and was healthy scratched for the remainder of the season outside of two injury plagued games where he was benched. Even Donskoi struggled to score a goal despite posting decent defensive results and playmaking and he was healthy scratched.

The problem with the accountability placed among depth players is it isn’t held consistent from player to player. Dylan DeMelo was never healthy scratched after a certain point despite making more egregious errors than Heed ever did. Melker Karlsson went over 50 games without a goal between last year and this year and was never healthy scratched. Barclay Goodrow hasn’t been scratched once this season and he made a far more egregious error against STL than Radil or Donskoi ever have in teal - he also doesn’t score as much as these guys.

The most blatant example of all of not holding people accountable is DeBoer playing Micheal Haley after that game against Vegas. Haley already should never be in the lineup based on merit and is only ever in because DeBoer and the boys like him. That right there is blatant nepotism and an organization which enforces nepotism to that degree is pretty much the opposite of an organization that prides themselves on accountability. But then you go a step further and look at the Vegas game and how how Haley got absolutely played by Ryan Reaves and cost the team the game against Vegas with multiple awful penalties. That kind of detrimental performance is worse than anything that Heed, Hansen, Suomela, Radil, or Donskoi have ever had nightmares of doing, and yet Haley wasn’t even healthy scratched once.

Speaking of nepotism, the head of the scouting department is the GM’s son. Which further enforces my idea that this really isn’t an organization that enforces accountability at all.

The Sharks organization placing a heavy emphasis on accountability is just corporate bullshit. They don’t.

 

[Mattb124]

Looking at Kopitar’s opposition on Natural Stat Trick really shows how bad DeBoer did tonight.

3:16 Vs. Haley - Shots 5-0 Goals 1-0
4:54 Vs. Goodrow - Shots 5-1 Goals 1-1

As a whole, Haley played 8:55 and Goodrow played 12:54. That means that for more than 1/3 of their TOI, Haley/Goodrow were our against Kopitar.

Meanwhile, looking at Kopitar’s performance against our top players:

6:57 Vs. Meier - Shots 1-4 Goals 0-1
8:46 Vs. Hertl - Shots 7-5 Goals 0-1

It’s never a good idea to saddle your 4th line with useless players like Haley, but when you do that, you can’t let them get caught out there for over 3 minutes against Anze ****ing Kopitar. You can’t just go casually rolling 4 lines when you have a player like Haley on your 4th line and a player like Goodrow on your 2nd line. If the opposing coach plays Kopitar for over 20 minutes and it’s hard to get away from him, you need to respond by throwing out your stars who are actually winning that matchup.

I think it’s funny that DeBoer tried to blame tonight’s loss on Jones because if there’s one guy I have to pin this one on, it’s DeBoer and this is the second game in a row I’ve said that.

How much ice time did DeBoer have against Kopitar?