Fire Chia Thread V: Manning and Petrovic and Spooner Oh ****!

[FunkyChicken]

Larsson would be Nashville's 5th best defenseman. That's both sad and impressive.

I've always thought his best comparable was Stralman.
Took a little longer for Stralman to gain traction, but similar type players.
Can serve as the shutdown options on a top pairing with a number one defenseman, but probably better off of the second pairing.

 

[MaxR11]

Can somebody better at embedding files than me please insert the stubborn jackass clip from Family Guy here?

lol, that would aptly describe a few of you hall lovers ironically.

 

[Little Fury]

Technically, didn't drafting JP set that motion?
Reinhart deal netted us nothing [though one could argue if Eriksson Ek was the pick all along, would've been a dud as well]

If Reinhart wasn't a dud or they had used that package for a different non-dud D (eg Hamilton) I don't think they deal Hall, but they might actually be that stupid.

 

[Little Fury]

ya and did you ever consider that the team is playing better and more responsibly in front of the goalie and thus the goalie is playing much better? like i just said in a post i just posted... how well a goalie plays in his net is highly determined by what his team (fwds and d men) are doing in front of him.... are they playing the right way... being in the right spots, allowing there to be a high predictability in what options the opposition has to attack the net with. makes a huge difference in how aggressive and confident a goalie is inhis net. these are things that are quite intangible that any goalie will tell you makes a massive difference.

Oh I forgot: everything that's bad is Taylor Hall's fault.

Realy have to wonder why the Oilers have sucked so hard for two of the three years he's been gone, though...

 

[MaxR11]

If Reinhart wasn't a dud or they had used that package for a different non-dud D (eg Hamilton) I don't think they deal Hall, but they might actually be that stupid.

i don't think you get it. yes, partly, the reason they traded for larsson was because they wanted D help.... but MOSTLY it was because they wanted to get rid of hall. ya, chia, didn't seem to be all that patient holding out for a better offer but there were no guarantees he was going to get anything more than larsson.

i mean it was clear as day the organization was trying to right the culture in the move away from hall. there's no if such and such happened they "wouldn't have traded hall". hall was a goner for sure and there were people that knew this back in feb of 2016.

 

[MaxR11]

Oh I forgot: everything that's bad is Taylor Hall's fault.

Realy have to wonder why the Oilers have sucked so hard for two of the three years he's been gone, though...

really? sucked so hard is a 103 pt season almost getting to the conference finals? they sure, record wise and visually, don't suck as hard even now or last yr compared to the hall days.

 

[ThreeOfAPerfectPair]

Surprised that number is so low.

 

[Little Fury]

i don't think you get it. yes, partly, the reason they traded for larsson was because they wanted D help.... but MOSTLY it was because they wanted to get rid of hall. ya, chia, didn't seem to be all that patient holding out for a better offer but there were no guarantees he was going to get anything more than larsson.

i mean it was clear as day the organization was trying to right the culture in the move away from hall. there's no if such and such happened they "wouldn't have traded hall". hall was a goner for sure and there were people that knew this back in feb of 2016.

Then they're even dumber than I thought possible.

really? sucked so hard is a 103 pt season almost getting to the conference finals? they sure, record wise and visually, don't suck as hard even now or last yr compared to the hall days.

Yeah because they have the best player in the world. But structurally they're the same as they were then: a one line tema that gets caved in when their star player isn't on the ice. Must be the "culture".

 

[MaxR11]

Then they're even dumber than I thought possible.



Yeah because they have the best player in the world. But structurally they're the same as they were then: a one line tema that gets caved in when their star player isn't on the ice. Must be the "culture".

right decision to trade hall, maybe not good timing as far as getting peak value in return. took them too long to finally figure out he was a problem. or too long to figure he wasn't going to change here.

overall they are structurally better more often than they were pre 2016-17. one player does not take a perennial DFL team that gets like 60 pts a season to 103 pt team that was inches from the conference finals. yes they regressed more to their norm the last 2 years but that just shows how much better as a team they actually were in 2016-17 without hall and with larsson.

 

[StevenF1919]

Hall for Larsson is Chia's worst move. Assets like Eberle, the Reinhart picks, etc. are traded every year. It's almost impossible to acquire a player of Hall's calibre. Franchises go 10+ years without acquiring a Hall-level player.

And Chia f***ing traded him for a mediocre #4 defenseman who can't make a breakout pass.

 

[BudBundy]

really? sucked so hard is a 103 pt season almost getting to the conference finals? they sure, record wise and visually, don't suck as hard even now or last yr compared to the hall days.

Go back and look at Halls’ team mates versus the team today. As bad as we are now, they were worse then.

 

[McFlash97]

Hall for Larsson is Chia's worst move. Assets like Eberle, the Reinhart picks, etc. are traded every year. It's almost impossible to acquire a player of Hall's calibre. Franchises go 10+ years without acquiring a Hall-level player.

And Chia ****ing traded him for a mediocre #4 defenseman who can't make a breakout pass.

Couldn't have said it better myself. I will be laughing my ass off if he trades Pulju and a first for Virtanen or Ferland.

 

[Raoul Duke]

If Reinhart wasn't a dud or they had used that package for a different non-dud D (eg Hamilton) I don't think they deal Hall, but they might actually be that stupid.

I find it’s best not to try and guess the limits of how stupid this organization can be.

 

[Little Fury]

right decision to trade hall, maybe not good timing as far as getting peak value in return. took them too long to finally figure out he was a problem. or too long to figure he wasn't going to change here.

overall they are structurally better more often than they were pre 2016-17. one player does not take a perennial DFL team that gets like 60 pts a season to 103 pt team that was inches from the conference finals. yes they regressed more to their norm the last 2 years but that just shows how much better as a team they actually were in 2016-17 without hall and with larsson.

Here's some recommended reading for you.

 

[Little Fury]

I find it’s best not to try and guess the limits of how stupid this organization can be.

Don't need to, we get reminded of it every day.

 

[Little Fury]

Go back and look at Halls’ team mates versus the team today. As bad as we are now, they were worse then.

No you see, according to buddy there, Hall made them bad players.

 

[McGoMcD]

Hanifin has never in his life played tough minutes and as recently as last year was struggling in bottom-pairing minutes. The guy was -20 playing by far the easiest QoC on his team together with TVR and had almost 63% OZ starts. So no, it's not "arguable".

Myers is basically the definition of a 2nd pair D. I don't think he has played any sort of tough minutes since he was in Buffalo.

Girardi is playing with an elite #1D by his side, maybe a top5 d in the entire league and on a loaded team nonetheless. The only reason he looks decent is just that. Ask Rangers fans how they feel about Girardi playing tough minutes

EDIT: Actually looked at Girardi's numbers w/o Hedman this season. He's 47 CF% and only even at 50 GF% on a team which are +58 in goal differential. So yeah..

I don't think you appreciate just how big of a difference it is for a D to go up against the Crosbys, Kucherovs, Kanes and Ovechkins of the world vs playing some average 2nd line guys or bottom-six guys. It's easy to look good in easy minutes. Even Benning looked like a competent D in 16/17 playing depth minutes. Nurse initially drowned trying to fill the gap after Klefbom once he had to go from 2nd pair to 1st pair. It's a huge difference.

That's the thing most people who discredit both Larsson and Klefbom doesn't seem to get. Because they don't look sexy out there shutting down the best players in the league, people think they're trash. Nothing could be further from the truth.

Funny you basically use advanced stats until a guy plays with a great partner, then you ignore them. Then you also ignore Klefbom has been statistically better than Larsson. Larsson has been poor with out Klef.... So basically I am not sure how you justify it.

I would take Hanifin in a heart beat. He is younger and movers the puck. He will be much better long term that Larsson. Reality is if you put up zero offence you have to be a defensive stud just to be a 3/4 guy. I put Larsson there, but unfortunately you just can't say he is much better than that.

 

[Zaddy]

Funny you basically use advanced stats until a guy plays with a great partner, then you ignore them. Then you also ignore Klefbom has been statistically better than Larsson. Larsson has been poor with out Klef.... So basically I am not sure how you justify it.

What are you talking about? And of course Klefbom is better than Larsson, I have never contested that. I've never been part of the people who say Larsson is better than Klefbom. He's not.

I would take Hanifin in a heart beat. He is younger and movers the puck. He will be much better long term that Larsson. Reality is if you put up zero offence you have to be a defensive stud just to be a 3/4 guy. I put Larsson there, but unfortunately you just can't say he is much better than that.

Who knows how good Hanifin will be. He certainly could turn out to be better in the long run, or maybe not. But that's not the discussion we're having right now. We were talking about who is better now / so far in their careers, and that player is clearly Larsson. Don't move the goalposts.

As for the offense, as evidenced by @LaGu Larsson has been top60 or better IIRC as far as defenseman goes when it comes to EV points, so he's not devoid of offense. But his main role is not to be an offensive guy, his main role is to support the guy he is paired with and cover for them defensively. Something he generally does a very solid job at as long as he isn't playing with someone who constantly gets out of position and plays like a chicken with its head cut off.

And again, where is this notion that "you can't say he's much better than that" ? What evidence do you have of this? What do you support this thesis with? The reality is that over the past 4 years he has come out even or ahead while playing the opponents best. That's not something 2nd pair D does. That's why they're called 2nd pair D.

 

[McGoMcD]

What are you talking about? And of course Klefbom is better than Larsson, I have never contested that. I've never been part of the people who say Larsson is better than Klefbom. He's not.



Who knows how good Hanifin will be. He certainly could turn out to be better in the long run, or maybe not. But that's not the discussion we're having right now. We were talking about who is better now / so far in their careers, and that player is clearly Larsson. Don't move the goalposts.

As for the offense, as evidenced by @LaGu Larsson has been top60 or better IIRC as far as defenseman goes when it comes to EV points, so he's not devoid of offense. But his main role is not to be an offensive guy, his main role is to support the guy he is paired with and cover for them defensively. Something he generally does a very solid job at as long as he isn't playing with someone who constantly gets out of position and plays like a chicken with its head cut off.

And again, where is this notion that "you can't say he's much better than that" ? What evidence do you have of this? What do you support this thesis with? The reality is that over the past 4 years he has come out even or ahead while playing the opponents best. That's not something 2nd pair D does. That's why they're called 2nd pair D.

I think Hanifin is arguably better now. It is close. I admit it isn't a slam dunk, but I think you can make the case that in 5-6 cases Larsson is a bottom pairing guy. I think you like to think of him as a guy that would be a stud number 2 if only we had a stud number one. Yet reality is on most of the teams with a stud number 1 there is no reason to think he would be the clear number 2 or even in the top 4 in some cases.

 

[48g90a138pts]

I really don't like this rumor of our 1st and a prospect for soon to be UFA Ferland talk. That sounds more like a team that's in a playoff spot kind of move. Oilers aren't in a playoff spot and can't continue playing .500 hockey and make the playoffs. We've been lucky the other teams around us have been struggling and that's the only reason we're still alive. That won't continue.

If Chiarelli has to make a trade and sends out this year's 1st rd, it has to be a 100% guaranteed successful trade. I don't care if Katz, management and Chiarelli are in desperation mode to make the playoffs. Can't just trade to make a trade and expect its going to work out. Chiarelli's track record on more important deals speaks for itself. And it scares the shit out of me.

Ferland has 10 points in his last 11 games, so he's on a hot streak. Is he worth a possible lottery ticket and one of our top prospects?

Remember, he's a UFA at season's end. And will be getting a heafty raise.

Can we afford him?

What do you guys think?

 

[oobga]

I really don't like this rumor of our 1st and a prospect for soon to be UFA Ferland talk. That sounds more like a team that's in a playoff spot kind of move. Oilers aren't in a playoff spot and can't continue playing .500 hockey and make the playoffs. We've been lucky the other teams around us have been struggling and that's the only reason we're still alive. That won't continue.

If Chiarelli has to make a trade and sends out this year's 1st rd, it has to be a 100% guaranteed successful trade. I don't care if Katz, management and Chiarelli are in desperation mode to make the playoffs. Can't just trade to make a trade and expect its going to work out. Chiarelli's track record on more important deals speaks for itself. And it scares the **** out of me.

Ferland has 10 points in his last 11 games, so he's on a hot streak. Is he worth a possible lottery ticket and one of our top prospects?

Remember, he's a UFA at season's end. And will be getting a heafty raise.

Can we afford him?

What do you guys think?

Agree it would be stupid to give up a 1st or even a decent prospect for a rental. Any move like that and it will be 100% obvious that the people in charge are putting their own job security above the long term good of the team. That would be very disappointing to see, but unfortunately, wouldn't be unexpected.

 

[MaxR11]

Here's some recommended reading for you.

i've explained it before. in 2016-17 hall not being there allowed the team to gel and play for each other and play the right way. the addition of lars and russell helped solidify the defence and upped the game of other dmen like klef and sekera. thus allowing talbot to have a great season. the rode the high and had a good season. it masked some issues they had with depth esp at forward. chia was not smart enough to see through it but yes, hall not being there and lars being there in 16-17 was definitely a big reason they did as well as they did for that year. losing sekera, who was great in 16-17 and was a key key contributor hurt more than some people thought.

time and time again that year (16-17) the players all said in interviews that the main difference was they were a much closer team and gelled better on and off the ice and played for each other and play the right way. it was partly a parting shot at hall as well. but you'll choose to ignore all of it and correlate with your numbers.

 

[YakDavid]

He needs to be gone ASAP! How he can look at Manning and trade for him thinking he would improve our team is beyond me

 

[TKB21]

He needs to be gone ASAP! How he can look at Manning and trade for him thinking he would improve our team is beyond me

It’s incredibly freighting that Chia has wanted Manning for the past two years. The average fan can see this guy is nothing more then a 7th dman at best but our GM cannot? God help us.

 

[McJadeddog]

It’s incredibly freighting that Chia has wanted Manning for the past two years. The average fan can see this guy is nothing more then a 7th dman at best but our GM cannot? God help us.

Yea, he was atrocious last night, just bloody awful. Easily could have been directly responsible for 2-3 goals against. Every time he was on the ice I was holding my breath, because you knew the other team was going to get a scoring chance or two.