Finishing 8th and 1st round exit isnt a bad thing

[HTT3*]

You think we're having more fun than Pens, Hawks fans? It takes a special kind of Kool-aid to make watching a mediocre and inconsistent team "fun" as compared to top-end teams.

Did you have fun when Columbus took the season series against the Wings for the first time ever?

Did you have fun when the Wings blew multiple 2 goal leads and found a way to lose the game?

I guess it was fun to watch. It would have been even more fun if they had won. It would have been even more fun if we could beat the Hawks, you know, just once maybe.

Playoffs are exciting because you have to fight n' claw for every win. It is grueling, nerve racking and exciting. Our excitement has already started, albeit, we have low expectations this year as we all know we are in transition. But hockey is fun. I love hockey, loved it since the day I started watching back in 1981.

If loving hockey is wrong... I don't want to be right!

 

[HTT3*]

Being mediocre for a couple years is fine if you have some direction and a plan for the future, but evidence of those is lacking lately. That's way more frustrating than being an 8/9 seed.

I thought their direction was easily identifiable.... it's basic common sense of what they are doing.. so I thought.

They are transitioning young players in slowly with veterans to keep a winning (and mature) culture in the locker room. They are looking for the vets to 'guide' the new. And to top that, you don't want a bunch of rookies (and young players like Abby, Helm, Emmerton) guiding the the rookies in their first season together. You need that mix of veteran leadership along with youth. Islanders and Oilers are perfect examples of how NOT to blast in a bunch of kids... It hurts their development and loses that special culture needed in the locker room.

If I remember correctly, Bert basically took Helm under his wing. Zetterberg took Brunner under his wing. Hull took Avery under his wing. Chelios took Fischer under his wing and Lidstrom took bunch of kids under his wing through-out the years.

I think it is easy to see management's intentions. Add in the fact the franchise has some of the greatest scouts in the league and do occasionally find those diamonds in the rough, I think the direction is clear... and I am 100% onboard with it.

 

[Bench]

Hull took Avery under his wing.

Years later, that relationship would cause Hull to lose his GM position.

 

[Flowah]

If I remember correctly, Bert basically took Helm under his wing. Zetterberg took Brunner under his wing. Hull took Avery under his wing. Chelios took Fischer under his wing and Lidstrom took bunch of kids under his wing through-out the years.

I agree that happened. I don't agree that's what's happening now.

Otherwise Smith would have received good tutelage last year. And Nyquist and Tatar would both be getting it from Datsyuk and Zetterberg for this whole season and next season.

As it is, it's not even a sure thing both those kids make the club next year with all the forwards we'll retain.

 

[WingedWheel1987]

Yes it is.

 

[GT500x]

First off, props to Kenny Holland for keeping this team somewhat competitive through this transitional period. I hope they make the playoffs, for sure!

That said, Ken said something last night during the Chicago game that resonated with me. He reminded us how bottom dwellers of the recent past are now some of the best teams in the league... and have the better chance of winning the SC in the post-cap era.

I like Holland's approach to try to keep this team competitive while stashing prospects and picks like gold (i.e. not willing to trade the 1st for Bouwmeester).

Now lets look at how Chicago became such a good team:

In 2005 finished 61 points behind Detroit. They won a top 3 pick to acquire one of my favorite players in the league, Jonny Toews.

The follow up the next year to 42 points behind Detroit to acquire the #1 pick to select Patty Kane.

When I see teams like Kings, Chicago, Pens win Stanley Cups, I realize they had to suck for a very, very long time to get players like the Crosby's, Malkin's, Toews, and Kane's... To me that is less impressive than our victories. I really appreciate the way this team re-tools without throwing in the towl and making things miserable for us fans.

Right now this is an exciting time of year, our playoffs have already begun. We are fighting tooth and nail to make the playoffs, and it makes standing watching fun. It makes watching other teams play even more fun because we are rooting for Yotes, Blues, CBJs to lose so it gives us a better chance.

Best of all, IMO, is going to be the 2013 draft selection. This weekend will be epic, because Holland is going to have decent picks and lots of nice players to choose from! I have high hopes for the 2013 draft!

I know many are hung up on the 1st Holland gave up for KFQ, but the 2012 draft was so thin. The first he gave up was probably no better than a 3rd rounder. I don't expect many players to make the NHL from the 2012 draft. The 2013 draft, I think will produce lots of quality NHLers!

Anynow, I think this is a fun time of year. The playoffs already begun! And draft day will be epic!

Enjoy the rest of the season folks, because it is going to be a roller coaster!

Look, I love playoff hockey and to be honest I feel slighted when the Wings aren't playing. Having said that, I'm not afraid to miss the playoffs because I accept that it's part of the rebuilding process. Trying to avoid succumbing to the way the league is designed by rebuilding on the fly is nice and all, but if we're facing the possibility playoff-less future I suggest we man up and deal with it. Shed a tear if you gotta but not two, and get over it fast.

 

[Probie]

Why is a transitional period? Because 40 year olds Lids and Homer were retiring? Somehow Holland and Co. have missed the mark. With our "elite" scouting why is Smith a letdown? Why resign an injury prone Samuelsson? That has really killed us this year. I've been a fan with blind loyalty but the more I study and read here I have to question how much thanks we owe our management. Does it all come down to higher draft picks?

I think Holland has not tended to team needs ie more speed and size, a scoring winger, this season a very good puck moving dman etc. I think however there is a dearth in young talent that has been lacking coming in the last couple years is because detroit traded away so many picks for a few years , now only after saving their picks the last few years are the a few guys knocking on the door.

 

[detredWINgs]

Smith is a letdown because he's a rookie defenceman on a bubble team.

We all thought Kindl was a bust and he's rounded into a decent second-pairing d'man with size. Give it time.

Speak for yourself please. There was a very vocal group here who continually said that Kindl would progress if only given consistent ice time.

And as much as I like Smith and expect him to improve, Kindl (arguably not even Lashoff) have consistnely made the mind-boggling gaffes that Smith has.

 

[HTT3*]

Yes it is.

Why? Fans get playoff enjoyment (for a short time) and keep the record alive, and then we get an exciting draft... something we haven't witnessed in a very a long time.

Win/win.

Even if Ken Holland traded every prospect in the farm, there was still not enough there to build a contender team. Nothing in the world could make this team a contender outside of signing both Parise and Suter, which they simply did not want to come here. Even then, I doubt this team was a contender. It's a down year, it happens.

I think a lot of fans are going to enjoy the 2013 draft. I just want the playoff streak to stay alive.

 

[CloneHakanPlease*]

Striving for mediocrity only breeds more mediocrity. Low expectations is a common trait of losers. Give me a 5 year rebuild plan where the end result is a cup contender again rather than the 2007 Calgary Flames model. Peasant aspirations.

 

[HTT3*]

Striving for mediocrity only breeds more mediocrity. Low expectations is a common trait of losers. Give me a 5 year rebuild plan where the end result is a cup contender again rather than the 2007 Calgary Flames model. Peasant aspirations.

Why do you feel Holland and Co. have to tell you their 5 year plan? Do you want Detroit to tank?

As for Calgary, do you think Calgary have a better drafting team than Detroit?

 

[The Zetterberg Era]

I agree that happened. I don't agree that's what's happening now.

Otherwise Smith would have received good tutelage last year. And Nyquist and Tatar would both be getting it from Datsyuk and Zetterberg for this whole season and next season.

As it is, it's not even a sure thing both those kids make the club next year with all the forwards we'll retain.

Could also be the attitude of those kids willing to listen. With the way we have logjammed the system, some of the anger is starting to seep out, like the Tatar comments in one of the other threads. There is an I belong here mentality with a couple of the guys and I agree with them. But they might want to start listening to some of the problem areas they have in their game or take note when someone passes a message on to them. A lot of this though is pure speculation one way or the other. Just don't like the body language or the discussions on the bench when they are shown. This team needs to talk more, they don't have as much experience as in the past and the veteran leaders should note this and become much more vocal. Honestly when is the last time you saw a huge discussion on the bench, Andersson and Nyquist discussing their shift while Cleary stares off into space was something I noticed right away last night.

Nyquist is on the club next year his contractual situation makes it as such or at least in the NHL somewhere if traded.

 

[WingedWheel1987]

None of these kids would be complaining or speaking up if they were being held back by future HOF players.

Holland needs to realize that holding kids back because Dan Cleary needs to feed his eight kids isn't acceptable.

 

[garry1221]

I agree that happened. I don't agree that's what's happening now.

Otherwise Smith would have received good tutelage last year. And Nyquist and Tatar would both be getting it from Datsyuk and Zetterberg for this whole season and next season.

As it is, it's not even a sure thing both those kids make the club next year with all the forwards we'll retain.

Tend to agree. The last couple years especially, we've seen more reclamation projects signed, when top prospects get held back to become 'overripe'. Again, the 'overripe' bit was smart in a non-capped era. Now, it's just another bad regurgitation. When we were at our best, we had vets tutoring our rookies in game.

Why? Fans get playoff enjoyment (for a short time) and keep the record alive, and then we get an exciting draft... something we haven't witnessed in a very a long time.

Win/win.

Even if Ken Holland traded every prospect in the farm, there was still not enough there to build a contender team. Nothing in the world could make this team a contender outside of signing both Parise and Suter, which they simply did not want to come here. Even then, I doubt this team was a contender. It's a down year, it happens.

I think a lot of fans are going to enjoy the 2013 draft. I just want the playoff streak to stay alive.

The playoff streak is yet another talking point that's starting to make me sick to my stomach. Squeaking into the playoffs as playoff fodder for an actual contender is not something to get excited for. 'Keeping the playoff streak' and 'exciting draft' are two phrases that don't seem to go together. Now, if we had a team that could actually make a deep run, I probably would think differently, but our current team just isn't THAT good, unless Z, Dats, and Howie magically go into beast mode.

To the bolded statement. It's getting old seeing this statement constantly being used. Everyone critical of Kenny knows that we weren't going to be a contender this year. More could and should have been done, but all we got up til the TD was the same "when player x gets healthy" talking points. If you're not a buyer (contender), then you should be a seller (noncontender). We had assets we could have sold off, both on the team and in the farm, to make us better in the future, but Kenny couldn't even do that right. He's trigger shy, letting emotion overrule all other thoughts.

While the streak is a great thing to talk about, it's mighty hard to get excited about it when this team is treading water, seemingly a mile out to sea, and getting tired fast. When Kenny gives me a reason to be excited at the draft, I'll be extatic, but c'mon, it's Kenny. More likely we see him trade down for more picks.

 

[Bench]

You don't need to go full tank for 5 years, but most of the successful teams do have a year or two of getting some top 5 picks.

That's kind of frustrating, as somebody who wants to see playoff hockey and future success, I'll admit.

 

[JmanWingsFan]

While I agree with the overall approach you're presenting, some of your points are so homerific that it is leaving a bad taste in my mouth.

You're negativity is obnoxious. He's allowed an opinion, and there's nothing wrong with pointing out how some of the best teams right now were cellar dwellers for a long time 'till they hit paydirt in the draft.

We could've had a really, really promising guy with our 1st last year.

No we couldn't have. There wasn't anyone left in the first round for us to pick. The Bolts drafted a freaking goaltender with our pick. Drafting goaltenders in the first round is stupid. In any case, we got Martin Frk, who should have been a first rounder anyways.

 

[Bench]

You're negativity is obnoxious.

Sunshine is cool, man.

 

[CloneHakanPlease*]

You're negativity is obnoxious.

You are negativity.

 

[PullHard]

You're negativity is obnoxious. He's allowed an opinion, and there's nothing wrong with pointing out how some of the best teams right now were cellar dwellers for a long time 'till they hit paydirt in the draft. No we couldn't have. There wasn't anyone left in the first round for us to pick. The Bolts drafted a freaking goaltender with our pick. Drafting goaltenders in the first round is stupid. In any case, we got Martin Frk, who should have been a first rounder anyways.

Will reply with a quote of my own, that was in response to you earlier in the thread.

I would quickly and easily take Maatta, Laughton, Subban, Gaunce, Samuelsson, and Matteau over Quincey and I honestly don't even have to stop and think about it. Like, really easy decision to make.

I am going to call a spade a spade all day, I'm not blinded by the fact that I cheer for this team to win. HTT3 brought up a lot of good points, most of which I agreed with (said it in my first post in the thread, which you quoted just now, but I guess chose to ignore), but his slant is always obvious. The whole handling of Quincey was an obvious fail, am I not allowed to be upset about that? Was upset when we first waived him, was upset when he had to give up a 1st rounder to get him back, and it cost us a pretty solid prospect (any of the ones I listed would've been more than fine). I'm not going to sweep it under the rug like some other posters around here seem so able to do.

Also, just because TB drafted a goalie doesn't mean we would have. They are desperate for a starter, we aren't. (though both he or Subban would be a fine player to add to our cupboard).

edit: also, your logic about last year's 1st makes no sense. We couldn't have had anyone good at #19, but we got Frk at #49, who is "good", and good enough to be a 1st rounder (which you just said was useless because no one good was left). So since no good players were left in the entire draft after #19, Wings should've traded all of their picks away? Or just decided to pass on picks, and not participate? Or are you implying good players were still around at #19 and beyond? I'm confused.

Sunshine is cool, man.

You are negativity.

Gather 'round me, my brethren!

 

[HTT3*]

The whole handling of Quincey was an obvious fail, am I not allowed to be upset about that?

You can be upset about it, but doesn't change the fact that Wings were bombarded by injuries last year and the added depth was important at the time, not to mention the known departure of Lidstrom and Stuart. You can never count on the FA because of the mass overpayment they have been getting the past 3 or 4 years. Counting on Free Agency is now a thing of the past. Had Suter not been persuaded by his butt-buddy, Parise, Holland would look like a genius.

And lets not forget that Quincey was DRWs +/- leader before he got struck in the face with the puck that untimely broke his face. He was actually playing pretty sound defensively.

Smith on the other hand has been a HUGE disappointment, but what can you do. He looked promising last year, now he's completely and utterly flopped. CC has been okay when he's not injured, White hasn't been that impressive. Kronwall looks like a moron when he doesn't have the puck. Ericsson has be steady, but still has his normal brain farts (it is a given).

All in all, none of the D have been great, some have been just horrible. Quincey atleast was steady before his injury. I think under the circumstances, that was a well spent 1st rounder in a thin draft year. Had Fischer not had that rare heart condition, Holland would be blessed with a solid shut down #2 dman... but that condition really put a monkey wrench on what was suppose to be. Lets not mention that Rafalski's knees blew out and retired a year or two early, had he played his final year, maybe the team would look differently today.

All-in-all, Holland has played the cards that were dealt to him really well under the circumstances. I know it is easy and say Holland should have done this 2 years ago, or did this and that last year, but had things played out as planned, Jiri Fischer and Brian Rafalski would have been part of it.

As for when Holland waived Quincey, there were stuff in the media about Q wanting to be a top 4 player on the wings or wanted to be traded (paraphrased, I just remember there was stuff in the media that Q wanted to be given a top 4 spot), but Lebda at the time was simply better and had a better attitude. And if you remember correctly, Lebda helped the Wings win a Stanley Cup in 2008 by playing 19 games in the playoffs, then followed up the next year to play 23 games in the playoffs. So debating Quincey over Lebda is tough considering Lebda was part of the Stanley Cup win and the SCF the very next year.

The late first rounder Detroit gave up to acquire Quincey is insignificant in the grand scheme of things. I doubt the players you listed are going to be impact players anyhow.

 

[PullHard]

All-in-all, Holland has played the cards that were dealt to him really well under the circumstances.

insignificant in the grand scheme of things. I doubt the players you listed are going to be impact players anyhow.

Agree with everything aside from this,

So the one time Holland feels the need to fling some assets around is when he wants to move a 1st rounder for Kyle Quincey? I get adding an established, yet young, type of Dman, but ... Kyle Quincey? For a 1st? I think we could have spent less on a player in the same ballpark, or ponied up a bit more (1st + prospect that won't see ice for years) for a guy who is actually worth it. You can't tell me that the value of a pick in the mid20s (fair guess at where the pick would wind up landing at the time of the trade deadline last year) is equivalent to Kyle Quincey. He is, and always should have been, an above average 3rd pair/ passable 2nd pair guy, who would need sheltering in the instance that he is on the 2nd pair. I certainly wouldn't have given up that 1st, but I guess we can agree to disagree here.

And I will be quoting your post again as soon as 1+ of those players does anything of significance in the NHL.

 

[HTT3*]

Agree with everything aside from this,

So the one time Holland feels the need to fling some assets around is when he wants to move a 1st rounder for Kyle Quincey? I get adding an established, yet young, type of Dman, but ... Kyle Quincey? For a 1st? I think we could have spent less on a player in the same ballpark, or ponied up a bit more (1st + prospect that won't see ice for years) for a guy who is actually worth it. You can't tell me that the value of a pick in the mid20s (fair guess at where the pick would wind up landing at the time of the trade deadline last year) is equivalent to Kyle Quincey. He is, and always should have been, an above average 3rd pair/ passable 2nd pair guy, who would need sheltering in the instance that he is on the 2nd pair. I certainly wouldn't have given up that 1st, but I guess we can agree to disagree here.

And I will be quoting your post again as soon as 1+ of those players does anything of significance in the NHL.

I don't know who else would have traded a young top 4 PMD dman who can score 20-30 points for a late 1st rounder in one of the weakest drafts we've seen in years... maybe behind the scenes Holland wanted to use that first + other assets to land one of Yandle or Bogosian? Maybe Kyle Quincey was "plan B" if Suter didn't want to sign with Detroit. And if Suter did sign with Detroit, would we be a better team as in playoff cup contender? Minnesota sure aren't blowing anyone away.

 

[PullHard]

I don't know who else would have traded a young top 4 PMD dman who can score 20-30 points for a late 1st rounder in one of the weakest drafts we've seen in years... maybe behind the scenes Holland wanted to use that first + other assets to land one of Yandle or Bogosian? Maybe Kyle Quincey was "plan B" if Suter didn't want to sign with Detroit. And if Suter did sign with Detroit, would we be a better team as in playoff cup contender? Minnesota sure aren't blowing anyone away.

Top 4 PMD is very generous, and Quincey was only considered one because he played on some pretty ugly teams on paper. (won't deny his ability to produce when given a generous helping of minutes)

Suter was a frontrunner for the Norris until a week or two ago until he started playing injured, so I don't know what you're trying to say there.

 

[HTT3*]

Top 4 PMD is very generous, and Quincey was only considered one because he played on some pretty ugly teams on paper. (won't deny his ability to produce when given a generous helping of minutes)

Suter was a frontrunner for the Norris until a week or two ago until he started playing injured, so I don't know what you're trying to say there.

I thought a few months ago people were saying Kronwall should be in Norris talks, if true, then I guess this is a weak year for Norris quality dmen.

But as I have written, as a team, Minnesota sure aren't blowing anyone away. What does that mean? What am I trying to say? Guess I am saying they are probably slumping and under-achieving like the DRWs or just simply aren't that dangerous. I guess that is what I am trying to say. Sorry if that was not clear enough for you.

 

[PullHard]

I thought a few months ago people were saying Kronwall should be in Norris talks, if true, then I guess this is a weak year for Norris quality dmen.

But as I have written, as a team, Minnesota sure aren't blowing anyone away. What does that mean? What am I trying to say? Guess I am saying they are probably slumping and under-achieving like the DRWs or just simply aren't that dangerous. I guess that is what I am trying to say. Sorry if that was not clear enough for you.

I read that too, and laughed. Kronwall had a lot of points at about the 10-15 game mark, and people who praise production from the blueline said it. No one who watched Detroit was on board with it, we knew about his turnovers and screens.

And yeah, Minnesota isn't very good. They're kind of shallow on paper, but have many prospects who should make a big difference sooner than later. But yeah not sure why you were trying to bash Suter on his awesome season still.