Finally, someone smart speaks up on the situation.

Discussion in 'The Business of Hockey' started by PhillyNucksFan, Feb 27, 2005.

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  1. PhillyNucksFan

    PhillyNucksFan Registered User

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    http://tsn.ca/nhl/news_story.asp?id=116423


    Im not really pro-owner or Pro-Player, but players really dont understand that by playing hardball, they will lose.

    There is no such thing as free lunch in the world.

    Get the deal done so at least we can look foward to how they resolve the draft!!
     
  2. Vagabond

    Vagabond Registered User

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    At least Super Mario spoke-out somewhat. Even the Great ones of our game were disrespected by the PA. Goodenow is the type of guy that can't/won't admit his wrong doing and by caving, would be doing exactly that. :banghead:
     
  3. Mess

    Mess Global Moderator

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    Is that helping the process though is the question ??

    If Wayne and/or Mario have a part in the Solution is critizing the PA really the best strategy .. They are Owners first and foremost .. they are just distancing themselves from the players further ..
     
  4. SuperUnknown

    SuperUnknown Registered User

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    They are distancing themselves because they speak the truth? :shakehead
     
  5. Mess

    Mess Global Moderator

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    That is not the point I am not questioning the integrity of Gretzky or Mario .. In fact I would say they are telling the truth .. but does it help the process get solved ..

    The point was "If you don't have anything good to say ..Don't say anything at all"

    The players trust Mario and Wayne if they comes across too PRO-OWNER rather then Impartial in this process then they will be seen by the NHLPA and the players as the same as Bettman and Daly and the opposition in this battle, and lo longer serve any purpose to be invited to help solve the stalemate.
     
  6. CantHaveTkachev

    CantHaveTkachev call on me

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    Mario is right, the sooner we get this CBA done, the better it is for the players...
    I can't see how thing's are gonna get better for the players by not agreeing to a lower cap and/or linkage. Can someone please tell me how the players are gonna win??
     
  7. Vagabond

    Vagabond Registered User

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    First of all, #99 didn't say anything about picking sides and never commented towards the PA except for saying he and Mario were mislead. Mario spoke out and for sure he has merit. I'm going by the fact the NHL will be in a far worse situation the longer the lockout lasts... more so for the players but none the less, the NHL as a whole. The owners can be blamed for escalating player salaries, but the last CBA was won by the PA.. in otherwords; the NHL has been running with the PA's plan. You'd think they'd have enough time to change the game in the last ten years to a less destructive one. At the same time, the PA knew the game was in a horrendous condition and thus.. didn't do anything about it because they were the only ones benifitng from the struggles of the game, along with the seven accomplices.. which were seven teams. ..And leads us to the present situation and condition of the NHL.
     
  8. Mess

    Mess Global Moderator

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    Its all about LINKAGE in fact ..

    A hard cap figure is a fixed amount .. no matter what happens to TV contracts and revenue etc . The Cap remains the same for a team to spend ...

    In big market cities you have so many fans to chose from that it doesn't matter to them if overall league Revenue goes down they will still fill building and make money .. and their teams will still be up near the Hard Cap .. as a result ..

    The owners held the NHLPA during a season hostage as they refused to pay them their guaranteed salaries and as long as they had that the NHLPA and players where eager to get a deal done and earn money .. Now that he season is gone that motivation is removed from the process and the player realize their next paycheque is not coming till October.

    Now ironically the Owners want to get a deal done for Sponsors and season ticket holders so they can earn money after just by cancelling the season withheld 1.5 Bil from the players ..

    Right now the NHLPA has a very little bit but still more bargaining power because in order for the NHL to get going with all is marketing and fund raising plans and the draft they need a CBA agreement in place .. Well that thinking is what the NHLPA will hold over them .. last season the owners were able to hold out because they had all this money collected and then called a lockout .. Now this is really different as Fans will hold on to Season ticket money and not prepay for a season and get reimburse later as games are cancelled.

    I can already see the next NHLPA move .. and Goodenow next speech "If you feel this time now is so crucial to you Owners then give us an new proposal that I can take back to the players to vote on ". Fully expecting them to give him an higher Cap figure or more items in his favour with items like Arbitration and UFA etc ..

    If the NHL follows through on its threat that every offer from here on in will get worse then the NHLPA already knows this is going to the courts to decide ..

    So right now in the next few months with the entry draft held hostage (and all the legal battles with RFA, Unsigned draft picks etc) and the Owners desperate to get season ticket money a sell advertising ..the NHLPA see a small window to get a better deal .. Once September rolls around and their next years Salaries are once again held hostage and the Owners in a far worse situation due to the above then the POWER changes completely again .. and both sides have to live with the mess.

    It all about shifting power and who will cave first in this battle as I see it and its all just fancy lawyering and a big Dog and pony show for the Fans as both sides now that IMPASSE and Courts the final end to this nonsense. IMO
     
    Last edited: Feb 27, 2005
  9. Pepper

    Pepper Registered User

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    If you think NHLPA's bargaining power increases in the future you're really living in a dream world. Every hour they keep prolonging the inevitable from happening, the less money they are going to get. Owners have used 40M of their 300M warchest and they have billions of more dollars if needed.

    They can just sit back and watch NHLPA implode next summer.
     
  10. Mess

    Mess Global Moderator

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    Forget about money for a second on think about POWER ..

    This one big POWER struggle ..by 2 sides ..

    Divide the calander year in HALF ..

    During the Regular season the OWNERS hold all the power as that is when PLAYERS get paid ..

    During the Playoffs and Offseason the PLAYERS hold the power as that is when the OWNERS get paid ...

    So the power is currently on the side of the Players ... because techically we are in the offseason now due to the lost season ..

    So since there is no Hockey most of the damage is already done Revenue wise to this point ..That can't be reversed or changed because that is now history.. Fans can't stay away if there is nothing to stay away from ..

    Players really don't care about Revenue .. The NHL has guaranteed contracts .. The players do not care where the owners get the money from to pay them .. Every two weeks without fail (unless you have a work stoppage) the players get paid during the regular season .. It could come from the Fans, Tv Deals , Owners War Chest, owners own pockets .. They just don't care bottom line .. They are legally required to get paid ... The owners are concerned where the money will come from.. and are tired of it coming out of their own pockets .. That is why we have a lockout ..

    But the players also know that the owners will need to put a competitive team on the ice to sell its product or lose more money as a result .. Fold ,move , go Bankrupt etc . .SO the players know the owners will have to spend and its the owners responsibility to grow the game and make sure the money is coming from some where to cover costs ..

    Players see this as idle threats about Revenue .. it does up it goes down and it doesn't affect them directly ..

    Its similar to a parent telling its kid .. Eat all your veggies or no Cake for you for desert .. Sure the kid may not get Cake that day, but eventually he knows again in the future he will get his cake and eat it too..
     
    Last edited: Feb 27, 2005
  11. Sammy*

    Sammy* Guest

    IMO, you have it backwards (& imo the bargaining history of Goodenow bares this out). The players have as much leverage as they ever have when the playoffs are looming (hence last CBA this is when the owners caved & in this one Goodenow thought this is when he could negotiate the best deal, ). Once the playoffs are done, the advantage falls right away to the owners as it is the players who will start losing lots of $$$.
     
  12. Drury_Sakic

    Drury_Sakic Registered User

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    My question is why cannot Mario and/or Wayne come out and say what the mean...

    They have come out soft spoken....

    and I guess they might have to being former players and current owners..

    But if I were either one of them.. Rules be damned... I am going out to the media and basicly saying "what the **** is going on guys... get a ****ing deal DONE... NOW"

    Not this pattsy watsy stuff..

    I thank both for putting thier necks out on the line a week ago....but to be frank.. if they had done this.. ummm... a month or two ago.. slowly brining the players back to earth....they might have been able to get something done....

    I don't want to sound like a ***** towards them.. again.. I thank them for trying... but thier power still holds alot of strength.. even after getting Spit on by the PA..
     
  13. FrozenPond

    FrozenPond Registered User

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    They’ll decertify. No union, no CBA, no cap, no draft. The UFA age drops from 31 to 18.

    Picture all those UFAs, and picture the Toronto Maple Leafs. The Leafs can spend $60M on salaries and still make $20M in profit. The Leafs will spend, guaranteed.

    And if Toronto spends $60M+, you can bet that Philly, New York and Detroit will spend $50M+ to keep up. And Montreal, Colorado, Dallas, Vancouver, … will all spend $40M+ to ice a competitive team.

    A number of teams will probably fold. If we are to believe Edmonton’s owners, without “cost certainty†they’ll have to suspend operations, so Edmonton is likely done.

    I don’t know about Mario and Pittsburgh. Maybe if they get their new arena they can survive, but it may be in a world where Fleury and Malkin go to the highest bidder. A few years from now, a set of $45M handcuffs for the Toronto Maple Leafs might sound awfully nice to Mario in retrospect.
     
  14. Cloned

    Cloned Amazing Alicia

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    I think Bob McKenzie hit the nail right on the head. The impasse route may not be taken by the NHL (partly) for the simple reason that it will lead to a final outcome one way or the other. Either the fans come back to watch replacement players and the PA is in massive trouble, or the fans don't come back and the League has to come crawling back to the PA. If the NHL does not want to take that risk they may just prefer to let this thing drag out into a protracted conflict -- no finality, no outcomes, no impetus to an end -- for a while, at least.
     
  15. Mess

    Mess Global Moderator

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    Isn't that what I said .. Even in baseball years back when they had their work stoppage the players played the regular season and got paid and then when the Playoffs began the went on strike ..

    If the owners had not locked out players for the regular season I bet you Millions that the NHLPA would have played the regular season and then the minute the playoffs were to begin gone on strike and used that power to get a better CBA deal .. With the season long Cap no CAP Mexican standoff the players would have used loss of Playoff revenue as its bargaining chip ..

    Either way we have no Stanley Cup champ and where never likely to have from day one of the 2004-05 season ..

    So we agree Regular Season Owners Power ... Playoffs Players Power ..

    The offseason RIGHT now the players are not losing anything .. no money out of pocket they are taking their kids to Disneyland on extend Summer Vacation .. The Owners need to collect Season ticket money, Sell luxury boxes , get TV revenue .. That is owners money that eventually goes to the players to pay them .. but if they hold out and sign a new CBA in September they are not out of pocket any money right now .. The owners will have to pay them starting the regular season even if they have to do it out of their own pockets and then get reimbursed once Season ticket money and gate receipts start rolling in ..

    Same with the entry draft that gives the NHLPA Power .. It would rather have all the players ruled UFA and go and sign the best deal possible in the City they choose.. That puts pressure on owners not players .. Under the new CBA they will get the rumoured 850 k entry level .. So now they get choice of city .. The entry draft itself was to generate lots of money for the host city and Owner/s ..

    Same with all the RFA and Unsigned Draft picks .. That chaos of rights issue ..does not bother the NHLPA .. If Kolvachuk and Heatley and Iginla etc are all ruled UFA due to no CBA and a win in court .. That does not hurt the NHLPA .. Kovalchuk would 100% guarantee get more money from someone then under the old CBA and qualifying him at 110% old cba and 75% new current unsigned one .. UFA is great for the NHLPA and in fact generates FAN interest to boot .. Can you imagine Diehard fans waiting for their team to get these great players once the CBA is signed and the Frenzy begins .. It would bring fans back in droves despite the season lost to lockout .. This Chaos is great for the NHLPA ..bad for Owners for Franchise values are dependent on the players on the team .. What would happen to the value of the Atlanta's and Florida's if its great young talent signed in other cities leaving them to play the vet UFA game to ice teams ..

    And with all this Chaos going on the NHL owners are going to be fighting the NHLPA in court through impasse and have all these 100's of player court cases to deal with at the same time ..

    That's my point ..Power to the NHLPA during the summer months through a lockout..
     
    Last edited: Feb 27, 2005
  16. SuperUnknown

    SuperUnknown Registered User

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    The NHLPA will never decertify. It wouldn't pass a vote. If they decertify, the NHL teams have no obligation to open up activities. Half the NHLPA's players would probably not be able to get jobs or would see substantial reduction in their payroll (they could be paid $50k). If 15 teams decide not to play without a union, this leaves a crippled 15 teams NHL league. Are they really going to be able to afford much salary at all? Why would they give salary insurance, guaranteed contracts or anything else to players?
     
  17. SuperUnknown

    SuperUnknown Registered User

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    Exactly, the NHL will just wait out the players, even if it takes 5 years. After a while, players will see 50%+ of their career salaries go down the toilet, the PA will be force to crawl and get a bad agreement, and this just after losing years of salary.
     
  18. wazee

    wazee Registered User

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    Without a salary cap, you are looking at a 4 team league. Leafs, Rangers, Flyers, and Wings. I don't see the Avs or the Stars joining up. Montreal has already said the 42.5 was too high...
     
  19. Pepper

    Pepper Registered User

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    Ummm you forget that owners make MOST of their revenues DURING the the regular season.

    Sorry, it just doesn't go like that. Players probably can't enjoy the off-season too much if they don't know whether they have a job or not in the fall.

    Owners have the money to wait, they have the power all the time because of that fact.

    No it isn't, power hasn't shifted at any point to PA's side. In fact they are constantly losing their bargaining power because the public opinion is so against them and the longer they drag this, the more negative press they will get.

    How do they players know that owners are not going to fold any of the teams?? It's also the owners responsibility to keep the costs at reasonable level and that's the reason why he have a lock-out, to achieve a situation where teams can not only survive but also to compete on more level playing field.

    Sorry but the players are in a lose-lose situation, at this point it's just damage control. The longer they drag, the less money they are going to get. I think most of them have realized this but Goodenow's pride doesn't allow him to just to accept it.

    Fact is that Goodenow is playing high stake poker with players money with a very poor hand. Bettman called his bluff and now Goodenow has no choice but to fold or keep upping the stakes. In the end Goodenow will lose and lose the players' money in the process.
     
  20. Vagabond

    Vagabond Registered User

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    ^^I'll agree with that. but that's a whole other perspective from what I was saying.
     
  21. Mess

    Mess Global Moderator

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    You do realize that all the players have to lose is money for playing when they are not playing. Thats it .. The are giving up unearned money and those the went to Europe 1/2 are even still making moiney not what they did but, still making it none the less..

    The Owners even if hockey is not played have lots of cost .. Property tax, Fire Insurance., office staff, scouting staffs, President, GM, Coaches Salaries , light, heat ,power, leases, loans etc etc .. Every minute they don't play and bring in money they lose money.. Which means its costs them money to sit around.



    It isn't about puplic opinion .. They are already out numbered 80% to 20 % in the polls and even when and/if it goes to courts Public opinion plays no part in the ruling made ..



    Goodenow has lots of Cards to play yet .. He is hoping for Impasse .. First he will fight replacement players and then once that is done he will hope they will fail by the owners because deep down that fans still want Marty Brodeur and Joe Sakic back and will not pay to see ECHL players play in NHL jerseys ..

    Impasse to me will get the courts to force all 30 owners open its books and an IRS audit done.. No court will rule in favour of the NHL until it knows all the facts particularly if linkage is involved by the NHL ..

    and even if it comes to the final straw and he feels a Hard Cap and linkage is enivitale .. he will de-certify the union allow all the players to work the best deal possible but all the players would be UFA and total chaos for the owners who would once again be bidding against each other and raising Salaries again . and the players could file law suits agains the NHL and get millions in rewards ..

    The NHLPA is long from dead yet .. Don't count them out ...
     
    Last edited: Feb 27, 2005
  22. shveik

    shveik Registered User

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    The players and the owners are in this together. And both sides are trying to play hardball. In this situation the party that blinks first loses big time. Thus the danger of this thing dragging on and costing both the players and the owners a bundle. The owners are willing to make the sacrifice to bring the union to its knees and rake in the money for many years afterwards. The union is willing to make the sacrifice to avoid this. It is a stalemate at this point.

    I blame the league for this. They are asking for much more than is needed to run the league well. They aren't interested in a workable compromise. Which makes me wonder, can *the union* try to declare impasse and decertify to force the matters? At least that way there will be a quick resolution to this whole mess. I suspect that the league would be much more open to compromise if the union goes that route, and it will not come to decertification. But if it does, I think the decertification holds less risk for the players, as they can always try to form the union again at a later day. It is much harder to revive the league than the union.
     
  23. djhn579

    djhn579 Registered User

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    The union can vote to decertify any time they want. I doubt that that would be in their best interest though...
     
  24. txomisc

    txomisc Registered User

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    If the PA went this direction they would essentially be shooting themselves in the foot.
     
  25. Pepper

    Pepper Registered User

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    Several teams are losing LESS money because they are not playing so for them your theory doesn't apply at all. Number of those teams is ~10-15 so they can veto any proposal.

    If 80% of large public is against the player there's a good chance that the courts see it the same way. Remember it's not black & white, courts have to make an objective decision have players & owners negotiated in good faith and then their personal opinions do affect their decisions.

    He is hoping for an impasse? I don't think so. With public opinion so firmly against PA, I'm certain that people would go to see replacement players especially with lower ticket prices. As much as they want to see the most talented players in the world, they want to see players giving their absolute best every night & play with passion. Many times fans are disgusted with the floating millionaires who have no desire to even try. AHL games are often much more entertaining because players are playing with fire & passion (to get chances in NHL) and with AHL ticket prices they would be hugely popular games.

    Also you forget that many PA members would cross the line and play with replacement players.

    Well several owners have offered PA to check out their books and PA has refused so far, I don't see why owners wouldn't let the courts check out their books. Do you seriously think NHL has not considered this option?? Of course they have.

    .

    You're really living in a dream world dude. Decertifying would be a total suicide for majority of the players (all europeans for example). No guaranteed contracts, no mininum wages, no mandatory allowances, plane tickets, holidays etc. Yeah, the sakics and broudeurs of hockey world would get the money but the 4th line grinders would be in real trouble.
     
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