Player Discussion Filip Chytil

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Jaromir Jagr

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Who's the garbage player that adds nothing?

McLeod, Staal, frankly -- Howden right now, Pionk. I mean, garbage is relative, but none of those guys have been that good this year and they've been put in positions that, in my opinion, they should never have been just because Quinn prefers some indeterminate X factor that he has deemed them as having.

That being said, these scratches are so often overblown. I'm sorry, but one scratch is not going to destroy a guys development. In fact, in many cases scratches are really important because sometimes observing NHL games with coaches surrounding you enlightens things you weren't seeing on the ice.

Now, if it becomes a regularity, like with Tony D, that's when I start to have issues.
 

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McLeod, Staal, frankly -- Howden right now, Pionk. I mean, garbage is relative, but none of those guys have been that good this year and they've been put in positions that, in my opinion, they should never have been just because Quinn prefers some indeterminate X factor that he has deemed them as having.

That being said, these scratches are so often overblown. I'm sorry, but one scratch is not going to destroy a guys development. In fact, in many cases scratches are really important because sometimes observing NHL games with coaches surrounding you enlightens things you weren't seeing on the ice.

Now, if it becomes a regularity, like with Tony D, that's when I start to have issues.

Staal has been solidly average.
Howden hit a wall in December and January; Was moved to the 4th line a was getting single digit minutes before he got hurt.
Pionk has been scratched.

So, I dont understand the narrative. They are held accountable when needed. Staal has been solid and has excelled when playing with ADA.
 
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Jaromir Jagr

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Staal has been solidly average.
Howden hit a wall in December and January; Was moved to the 4th line a was getting single digit minutes before he got hurt.
Pionk has been scratched.

So, I dont understand the narrative. They are held accountable when needed. Staal has been solid and has excelled when playing with ADA.

But you're confirming his and my argument. Howden was arguably the worst player in the NHL for months and was never scratched. Yet other guys were. Pionk was only scratched once he got injured. He was getting first pair minutes for the majority of the season even though it wasn't warranted.

I utterly disagree on Staal. He has been better than the usual garbage but he is still garbage and has not once been scratched. Especially when he was playing horrendously at the beginning of the year.

You also completely ignored McLeod.

They are held accountable when needed. See---it's this kind of statement which just makes no sense. How can someone argue that a guy who produces less than, let's say ADA or Buchnevich, yet never gets benched, is being held accountable when needed, yet those two guys are consistently riding pine.

What is the justification for multiple benchings of Chytil and not once Howden? Same can be said for Pionk and ADA prior to the injury.

The fact is, Quinn has some random X factor which he deems to be superior to that of actual skill and on-ice production. If you have this X factor such as Staal, Howden, McLeod and Pionk apparently do, you can perform worse on the ice and not be held accountable, whereas if you are missing the X factor, you cannot have lapses for fear of benchings.
 

Mike in Houston

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But you're confirming his and my argument. Howden was arguably the worst player in the NHL for months and was never scratched. Yet other guys were. Pionk was only scratched once he got injured. He was getting first pair minutes for the majority of the season even though it wasn't warranted.

I utterly disagree on Staal. He has been better than the usual garbage but he is still garbage and has not once been scratched. Especially when he was playing horrendously at the beginning of the year.

You also completely ignored McLeod.

They are held accountable when needed. See---it's this kind of statement which just makes no sense. How can someone argue that a guy who produces less than, let's say ADA or Buchnevich, yet never gets benched, is being held accountable when needed, yet those two guys are consistently riding pine.

What is the justification for multiple benchings of Chytil and not once Howden? Same can be said for Pionk and ADA prior to the injury.

The fact is, Quinn has some random X factor which he deems to be superior to that of actual skill and on-ice production. If you have this X factor such as Staal, Howden, McLeod and Pionk apparently do, you can perform worse on the ice and not be held accountable, whereas if you are missing the X factor, you cannot have lapses for fear of benchings.

Pionk got Quinn Binned early in the season. Right after that Carolina debacle.
 

duhmetreE

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But you're confirming his and my argument. Howden was arguably the worst player in the NHL for months and was never scratched. Yet other guys were. Pionk was only scratched once he got injured. He was getting first pair minutes for the majority of the season even though it wasn't warranted.

I utterly disagree on Staal. He has been better than the usual garbage but he is still garbage and has not once been scratched. Especially when he was playing horrendously at the beginning of the year.

You also completely ignored McLeod.

They are held accountable when needed. See---it's this kind of statement which just makes no sense. How can someone argue that a guy who produces less than, let's say ADA or Buchnevich, yet never gets benched, is being held accountable when needed, yet those two guys are consistently riding pine.

What is the justification for multiple benchings of Chytil and not once Howden? Same can be said for Pionk and ADA prior to the injury.

The fact is, Quinn has some random X factor which he deems to be superior to that of actual skill and on-ice production. If you have this X factor such as Staal, Howden, McLeod and Pionk apparently do, you can perform worse on the ice and not be held accountable, whereas if you are missing the X factor, you cannot have lapses for fear of benchings.

You're equating 'not producing' with scratches. You do not get scratched for not producing until you start dogging it or continually make bad decisions. I don't know how else to say it. Hayes said it best.

“Quinney demands hard work,” Hayes said, referring to coach David Quinn. “He doesn’t care how long you’ve been here or who you are. If you don’t work hard, you’re not going to play. That runs right through the lineup.
“If you’re not having a good skills game, you’d better have a strong work ethic, play with energy and move your feet. If not, you’re not playing.
That’s a major motivating force. Everyone is held accountable. He may yell a lot, but he gets his points across. So that drives us.​
Calling Staal garbage is hyperbole. He's overpaid, sure, but an average defenseman

It seemed that ADA got benched for his mouth and 'maturity' issues not for actual gameplay.

Howden was playing well but not producing starting December. It continued on and eventually he was put on the 4th line. Which is in line with what Quinn does. After the 4th line, if nothing changes, you get scratched.

Pionk has produced offensively but has surprisingly played like a rookie on occasion. Nothing to do with work ethic

Yes. you got it. You want to call it the X-factor but it's very simple. If you're not a hard worker you will not play. If you do not buy in to what the coach wants, you will not play. There should be no confusion.

Zibanejad is the prototype for Quinn. He wants his 'skill' players to grind like Zibanejad, the best player on the team. There's no exceptions.
 
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Riche16

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Why does this come up in every thread? Quinn laid it out and has followed through on it. We don't watch the practices... you know who does? QUINN

It's not hard to fathom that while some players like Howden may not be producing that he has liked his attitude and work ethic and he feels that Howden gets more from playing in games (although he may not be playing up to standards). Chytil could've been benched in the past and wasn't... at this point Quinn feels it's what's best for him. Buch did it, ADA did it, Pionk, etc.

Just because a vet and Alternate Captain in Staal doesn't get the same treatment shouldn't be an indictment of Quinn. Staal knows what's expected day in and out.
 

Jaromir Jagr

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I love how everyone just blows through the point here (while also clearly participating in some selected reading).

The original argument was that Quinn has some undetermined X factor which causes him to favor so called 'garbage' players in favor of those who do not have this 'X-Factor.'

The issue isn't about any specific player. We can argue semantics all day. And I don't care whether someone views Staal as average, garbage, or above average, that's completely besides the point.

The issue at hand is that Quinn has time and again prioritized lesser players over better players because he values effort over actual skill. This is completely fine in a one off situation (such as that recent on with ADA deemed relative to 'maturity issues), however it is not OK when it is done consistently, which, in my opinion, it has been.

This is most noticeable with the contrast between Pionk and ADA. Sure, ADA was benched once because of maturity issues, but he leads the team in benchings and not ALL of them were related to this. Meanwhile, Pionk didn't get benched until he was injured (sans the one time that apparently discounts the entire point - sarcasm), and was fed top line minutes while not even remotely deserving them. In fact, for weeks if not months he was arguably our worst D-Man. The same can be said about Howden, who was continuously fed a consistent role and minutes for months after his play dropped off.

This benching with Chytil is not a huge deal. But I completely agree with @Machinehead that Quinn has prioritized lesser players due to some indeterminate x-factor (probably related to work ethic, etc.). Moreover, the main issue I have, is it seems Quinn - much like Tortarella before him - prefers these lesser players over skill players. This is quite clear with Buchnevich, who maybe deserved some benchings, but has also received some after fine games. It seems he wants Buchnevich to be a player he is not. I have a huge problem when guys like Buch, Chytil, etc start hitting more and playing a game they are not meant to.
 
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duhmetreE

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I love how everyone just blows through the point here (while also clearly participating in some selected reading).

The original argument was that Quinn has some undetermined X factor which causes him to favor so called 'garbage' players in favor of those who do not have this 'X-Factor.'

The issue isn't about any specific player. We can argue semantics all day. And I don't care whether someone views Staal as average, garbage, or above average, that's completely besides the point.

The issue at hand is that Quinn has time and again prioritized lesser players over better players because he values effort over actual skill. This is completely fine in a one off situation (such as that recent on with ADA deemed relative to 'maturity issues), however it is not OK when it is done consistently, which, in my opinion, it has been.

This is most noticeable with the contrast between Pionk and ADA. Sure, ADA was benched once because of maturity issues, but he leads the team in benchings and not ALL of them were related to this. Meanwhile, Pionk didn't get benched until he was injured (sans the one time that apparently discounts the entire point - sarcasm), and was fed top line minutes while not even remotely deserving them. In fact, for weeks if not months he was arguably our worst D-Man. The same can be said about Howden, who was continuously fed a consistent role and minutes for months after his play dropped off.

This benching with Chytil is not a huge deal. But I completely agree with @Machinehead that Quinn has prioritized lesser players due to some indeterminate x-factor (probably related to work ethic, etc.). Moreover, the main issue I have, is it seems Quinn - much like Tortarella before him - prefers these lesser players over skill players. This is quite clear with Buchnevich, who maybe deserved some benchings, but has also received some after fine games. It seems he wants Buchnevich to be a player he is not. I have a huge problem when guys like Buch, Chytil, etc start hitting more and playing a game they are not meant to.

“Quinney demands hard work,” Hayes said, referring to coach David Quinn. “He doesn’t care how long you’ve been here or who you are. If you don’t work hard, you’re not going to play. That runs right through the lineup.
“If you’re not having a good skills game, you’d better have a strong work ethic, play with energy and move your feet. If not, you’re not playing.
That’s a major motivating force. Everyone is held accountable. He may yell a lot, but he gets his points across. So that drives us.

That was the original point. Chytil not skating hard.
 

Amazing Kreiderman

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“Quinney demands hard work,” Hayes said, referring to coach David Quinn. “He doesn’t care how long you’ve been here or who you are. If you don’t work hard, you’re not going to play. That runs right through the lineup.
“If you’re not having a good skills game, you’d better have a strong work ethic, play with energy and move your feet. If not, you’re not playing.
That’s a major motivating force. Everyone is held accountable. He may yell a lot, but he gets his points across. So that drives us.

That was the original point. Chytil not skating hard.

"If you always have to try hard to get into position, it means you are always out of position"

- My rugby coach
 

duhmetreE

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Forget about his obvious stickhandling issues and strength, that can be worked on...

His perceived lack of effort against BOS is unacceptable. His IQ/game-sense/finding soft spots is suspect.
iu
 

2014nyr

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But you're confirming his and my argument. Howden was arguably the worst player in the NHL for months and was never scratched. Yet other guys were. Pionk was only scratched once he got injured. He was getting first pair minutes for the majority of the season even though it wasn't warranted.

I utterly disagree on Staal. He has been better than the usual garbage but he is still garbage and has not once been scratched. Especially when he was playing horrendously at the beginning of the year.

You also completely ignored McLeod.

They are held accountable when needed. See---it's this kind of statement which just makes no sense. How can someone argue that a guy who produces less than, let's say ADA or Buchnevich, yet never gets benched, is being held accountable when needed, yet those two guys are consistently riding pine.

What is the justification for multiple benchings of Chytil and not once Howden? Same can be said for Pionk and ADA prior to the injury.

The fact is, Quinn has some random X factor which he deems to be superior to that of actual skill and on-ice production. If you have this X factor such as Staal, Howden, McLeod and Pionk apparently do, you can perform worse on the ice and not be held accountable, whereas if you are missing the X factor, you cannot have lapses for fear of benchings.

as the season has played out my read on quinn's personnel mgmt is 1- generally very fair by any standard, both as it relates to pregame lineup decisions and in game adjustments...and 2- there are a couple guys he/mgmt clearly has very high opinions and expectations of and my guess is the perceived "shorter leashes"/"underuse"/general unfair treatment of - has nothing to do with thinking a boo/lettieri/mcleod bring more to the table and everything to do w/ really trying to drive home the point to guys like chytil/buch/tony d/pionk that they've been identified as guys that can really be difference makers. the expectations for them are driving to continually push their limits to maximize growth/impact. the guys the step in over them aren't getting those minutes with the idea theyre more valuable/talented, they're fillers who allow quinn to drive home his expectations going forward in a season thats always been about the future.
 

Jaromir Jagr

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“Quinney demands hard work,” Hayes said, referring to coach David Quinn. “He doesn’t care how long you’ve been here or who you are. If you don’t work hard, you’re not going to play. That runs right through the lineup.
“If you’re not having a good skills game, you’d better have a strong work ethic, play with energy and move your feet. If not, you’re not playing.
That’s a major motivating force. Everyone is held accountable. He may yell a lot, but he gets his points across. So that drives us.

That was the original point. Chytil not skating hard.

Ugh....this is going to be my last post in this discussion. You're singling out points to prove yours, while completely ignoring the central component of mine.

I understand this hard work thing and, again, have no problem with benching guys who seem to be dogging it. However, Quinn seems to associate 'hard work' with 'grit.' Chytil and Buchnevich may be working just as hard in a game relative to McLeod, but when they don't end up on the scoresheet, they are considered to have been lazier due to their style of game.

This has always been an issue with coaches, especially as the game has changed over the last decade. It was notable with AV during his tenure. It was a major problem with Torts. And even Keenan back in the day (a good example being when Nedved was driven out of town). I'm just so sick of coaches, Quinn included, prioritizing this grit element over that of actual skill.

There is a need for discipline, but coaches also need to understand that in today's game, it's not necessary to play like they did in the 80's where basically everyone needed some level of toughness. You could see Chytil and Buchnevich yesterday going out of the way to finish hits well after the play had left their area. This is quite clearly something that they do to try to stay in the lineup. Not only is it ineffective, but it also could lead to injury and, moreover creates a different line of thinking for guys who should be 100% focused on putting the puck in the net, not being gritty at fear of their lack of production.

Grit does not equal effort. And it seems to me that Quinn's definition of 'hard work' is largely defined by the level of grit you show in your game (regardless of his comments to the contrary).
 
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Smart Alek

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The original argument was that Quinn has some undetermined X factor which causes him to favor so called 'garbage' players in favor of those who do not have this 'X-Factor.'

I don't find this argument persuasive. To my eye, having watched almost every Rangers game this season, it appears as though Quinn is taking a highly specific, curated approach to his players. Chytil is going to develop differently than Howden, who is going to develop differently than Andersson, who is going to etc., etc.

Like the rest of the team, he has a vision of who these players could be in 2-3 years, and that's what he's working towards building. Sure, he'd like to win games now as a new coach, but that's not really the goal of the organization at this time.

Overall, I've been very impressed with how he's handled this team, and with only one glaring exception (having Pionk on PP1 over Shattenkirk for much of the season), his decisions have made sense when viewed with a long term lens. Some of you don't know how good you have it with him, but I imagine Chytil does.
 
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Levitate

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I don't find this argument persuasive. To my eye, having watched almost every Rangers game this season, it appears as though Quinn is taking a highly specific, curated approach to his players. Chytil is going to develop differently than Howden, who is going to develop differently than Andersson, who is going to etc., etc.

Quinn has in fact explicitly stated this...that he doesn't believe every player should be developed exactly the same and you don't always develop a guy by giving him all the minutes regardless of how he's playing.

He thinks some guys will develop better if given minutes to work through things, and other guys need to sit in order to get a better perspective on things they need to do.

Right or wrong, he has been up front about it, people here just have ignored what he said[/QUOTE]
 

romba

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Quinn has in fact explicitly stated this...that he doesn't believe every player should be developed exactly the same and you don't always develop a guy by giving him all the minutes regardless of how he's playing.

He thinks some guys will develop better if given minutes to work through things, and other guys need to sit in order to get a better perspective on things they need to do.

Right or wrong, he has been up front about it, people here just have ignored what he said
Couldn't agree more. Everyone needs to be treated equally nowadays, or else mom and dad will call the coach to complain that it's not fair.

Sometimes some guys may be judged to need more of a kick in the pants to be successful (Buch) than others (Vesey), and unless you're privy to all the banter and whatnot from the locker room, there's a chance we don't know all the details.
 

haveandare

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So, about Chytil...

The point totals are decent but he's had some really good looks throughout the year too, especially for a kid his age. What do people think about his year so far assuming it doesn't change much?
 

YoSoyLalo

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So, about Chytil...

The point totals are decent but he's had some really good looks throughout the year too, especially for a kid his age. What do people think about his year so far assuming it doesn't change much?
I was expecting about 25-30 points out of him so his production has been in line with my expectations.

What’s really exciting is the small stretches of absolute dominance. Those flashes are what makes him so intriguing.
 
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Leetch3

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D+1 vs D+2 is irrelevant imo. scoring 20 points in 60 games has absolutely nothing to do with consistency in effort.
 

Ori

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It take a while to get used to the NHL schedule - maybe he needed a rest based on energy level.
 

Edge

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In fairness, Seguin was also on a stacked Bruins team in the middle of a window and while he wasn’t benched for his effort per se, his habits were certainly questioned at times.

And I’m really not too comfortable even delving too much into the whole Seguin-Chytil comparisons, even as an aside.

I’ve seen this board go down similar roads way too many times before over the last 22 years.
 

Amazing Kreiderman

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You're comparing Segs' D+1 to Chytil's D+2.... Seguin had 67 points in his D+2.

I get that Chytil is younger than Seguin was but still apples to oranges.

Chytil's age to start his D+2 season was 19.1
Seguin's age to start his D+1 season was 18.10

In this comparison, Chytil is 3 months older than Seguin. This is one of those examples where the D+1 vs D+2 seasons are good comparables
 
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duhmetreE

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What does Seguin have to do with Chytils effort? Is that an excuse?

Aho had more points. Nichuskin had more points at 18. Does that prove a point? Are we going to continue the comparison with Seguin into the next year?

No, it's all irrelevant. He's been playing poorly and his effort has not been where it's expected to be..
 
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