Fighting in the Q

[Otto]

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[OHLTG]

I get the idea of reducing fighting, but a 15-min major after five fights is actually funny.

"Penalty to number (whatever), 15-minutes for fighting."

When the OHL went to three-fight rule, officials were pretty inconsistent for handing out majors. Some wrestling matches got five, while others involved actual punches and got roughing. Now, it would just be a shoot-show (ahem) to figure things out. It would be easier to just go with "5/GM for a fight, 2-game suspension after third fight" rule.

 

[Otto]

I get the idea of reducing fighting, but a 15-min major after five fights is actually funny.

"Penalty to number (whatever), 15-minutes for fighting."

When the OHL went to three-fight rule, officials were pretty inconsistent for handing out majors. Some wrestling matches got five, while others involved actual punches and got roughing. Now, it would just be a shoot-show (ahem) to figure things out. It would be easier to just go with "5/GM for a fight, 2-game suspension after third fight" rule.

I think it's a 15 minute major for all fights and a suspension after 5 fights

 

[OHLTG]

I think it's a 15 minute major for all fights and a suspension after 5 fights

That actually makes it worse. Stick to 5/GM for a fight and suspensions after x-number of games.

 

[AttackSound]

This debate has been going on forever since no one really fights anymore in the OHL why don't we actually get a penalty for what it actually is these days.

Shoving.

In the past 3 seasons the OHL officials have called most shoving matches as fighting calls and I've yet to see an actual punch swung at another player. Until we actually see a what existed back a decade ago fights have went the way of the dodos in the OHL.

There's more impending penalties these days then ever as well as reaction calls then there ever has been. I've heard many stories that the disciple in the QMJHL is more loose then the OHL and WHL. No one fights haven't since 2011 so unless players start to fight more often this is a endless debate of chasing tails. I could see if there was one fight a game or something then okay maybe there needs to be more stricter rules but this is like spitting in a windstorm. The current rules are fine.

 

[Otto]

This debate has been going on forever since no one really fights anymore in the OHL why don't we actually get a penalty for what it actually is these days.

Shoving.

In the past 3 seasons the OHL officials have called most shoving matches as fighting calls and I've yet to see an actual punch swung at another player. Until we actually see a what existed back a decade ago fights have went the way of the dodos in the OHL.

There's more impending penalties these days then ever as well as reaction calls then there ever has been. I've heard many stories that the disciple in the QMJHL is more loose then the OHL and WHL. No one fights haven't since 2011 so unless players start to fight more often this is a endless debate of chasing tails. I could see if there was one fight a game or something then okay maybe there needs to be more stricter rules but this is like spitting in a windstorm. The current rules are fine.

That may be.... but this time government subsidies are involved. Whether you or I think the rules are fine are irrelevant. If the league stands to lose $20 million in subsidies because of this then chances are the rules are going to change

 

[Ferda11]

Government, the biggest bullies of them all.

 

[Square Corners]

Government, the biggest bullies of them all.

If im giving someone 20 million, I wouldn't really say that's me bullying them lmao

If that were the case I wish I had a few bullies

 

[OHLTG]

It's pretty common - "you want the money? You'll do as I say."

 

[ohloutsider]

So David Branch - big picture question - if the QHL can get funding/support from one of their provinces why is the OHL not getting funding/support from their province???

Name 1 OHL team that would turn down 1.5 million?

And of course how many tax payers in Quebec are all rosy with funding such support?

All of this is more of the issue than setting a standard for kids to stop beating up on each other for some random fans pleasure.

 

[Otto]

So David Branch - big picture question - if the QHL can get funding/support from one of their provinces why is the OHL not getting funding/support from their province???

Name 1 OHL team that would turn down 1.5 million?

And of course how many tax payers in Quebec are all rosy with funding such support?

All of this is more of the issue than setting a standard for kids to stop beating up on each other for some random fans pleasure.

I would guess that junior hockey is more popular province wide in Quebec than in Ontario. The OHL is strictly regional and outside of the cities that have teams people don't really care all that much.. heck even in some cities that have teams they don't care

 

[MatthewsMoustache]

I would guess that junior hockey is more popular province wide in Quebec than in Ontario. The OHL is strictly regional and outside of the cities that have teams people don't really care all that much.. heck even in some cities that have teams they don't care

Attendance wise, it’s actually the opposite. only 7 teams in the Q averaging over 3000 people a game to the OHL’s 15.

QMJHL also has 4 teams that get less than 2000 per game. The lowest in the OHL this past season was 2040 (North Bay).

QMJHL 2019-20 team attendance at hockeydb.com

OHL 2019-20 team attendance at hockeydb.com

 

[Otto]

Attendance wise, it’s actually the opposite. only 7 teams in the Q averaging over 3000 people a game to the OHL’s 15.

QMJHL also has 4 teams that get less than 2000 per game. The lowest in the OHL this past season was 2040 (North Bay).

QMJHL 2019-20 team attendance at hockeydb.com

OHL 2019-20 team attendance at hockeydb.com

But what's the capacity of those arenas? Also, I'm thinking there are a lot that watch on TV...Quebec loves hockey

 

[ohloutsider]

I would guess that junior hockey is more popular province wide in Quebec than in Ontario. The OHL is strictly regional and outside of the cities that have teams people don't really care all that much.. heck even in some cities that have teams they don't care

Yes likely true but I would think this money is coming out of the cultural/events/entertainment funds. This for Quebec is largely funded by the federal government. You and I are, in part, funding this subsidy for the Q teams.

 

[EvenSteven]

Yes likely true but I would think this money is coming out of the cultural/events/entertainment funds. This for Quebec is largely funded by the federal government. You and I are, in part, funding this subsidy for the Q teams.

It’s really easy for a province to commit 20 million in subsidies when they purposely operate at a loss every year. You are right. You and me will be paying for that subsidy. Every year, the province of Quebec purposely operates at a loss and as a result, federal equalization payments go their way.

I have friends of mine that live in Quebec. They thank me all the time for helping pay for their kids’ university educations. Their tuitions are dirt cheap. The province is able to have such low tuitions because they operate at a loss because they know they’ll be paid back via these equalization payments.

So sure, the Quebec government can throw around millions of dollars to junior hockey without batting an eyelash. I think it’ll be a hugely different story in Ontario and the OHL.

 

[I Loveallsports]

It’s really easy for a province to commit 20 million in subsidies when they purposely operate at a loss every year. You are right. You and me will be paying for that subsidy. Every year, the province of Quebec purposely operates at a loss and as a result, federal equalization payments go their way.

I have friends of mine that live in Quebec. They thank me all the time for helping pay for their kids’ university educations. Their tuitions are dirt cheap. The province is able to have such low tuitions because they operate at a loss because they know they’ll be paid back via these equalization payments.

So sure, the Quebec government can throw around millions of dollars to junior hockey without batting an eyelash. I think it’ll be a hugely different story in Ontario and the OHL.

Your bang on regarding tuition in Que. More families from Ontario should consider sending their kids to school there.

 

[BadgerBruce]

This issue is more layered than most people realize.

The Q had a vote on banning fighting scheduled for February, 2020, when the league was named as a defendant in a CTE/Concussion class action lawsuit filed initially filed in B.C.

The league vote was immediately postponed and rescheduled until August.

https://www.si.com/hockey/news/alre...ight-soon-have-to-deal-with-a-concussion-case

The Concussion/CTE court action calls for an immediate ban on fighting in all three CHL leagues.

So flash forward to now and the Q commissioner, Gilles Courteau, is lobbying Education Minister Isabelle Charest for a $20 million slice of provincial pandemic bailout money.

Charest, an iconic former Olympic athlete who won medals for Canada at 3 consecutive games in speed skating, is not a “traditional” politician who relies on briefing notes to understand this particular file. As well, she’s the bloody Education minister, responsible for the well-being of millions of minor children, so there’s no way she’s going to just fork over $20 million to an amateur youth hockey league operating in her province that allows bare-knuckle fighting by minor age children.

So Courteau is cornered. Take the money and ban fighting? The rest of the CHL will surely lose its collective shite on him — they are spending yet another small fortune vigorously defending themselves in a Concussion/CTE lawsuit that, if you read the statement of claim, is ALL about fighting. Yikes. Talk about an admission of liability.

In the end, the Q’s league owners saved him from what could have been a costly mistake. 10 voted to take the cash and modify the rules on fighting. 8 voted against. Since a 2/3 majority is needed, the motion failed.

Who would have voted against the motion? Definitely the 6 clubs based in Atlantic Canada. They would not see a dime of the Quebec bailout cash but would be bolstering the class action claim against the league by voting yes. Don’t forget, two of the wealthiest families in Canada, the Irvings and the McCains, own franchises in Atlantic Canada. They didn’t get rich by being stupid. And in the province of Quebec itself, I’d be shocked if Quebecor, the conglomerate owner of the Remparts, would take the government bait, either. Way too savvy.

So there’s 7 of the 8 “nay nay” votes right there.

Couteau wants to schedule another vote. He should think long and hard about this — nothing in life is really free.

 

[OMG67]

I like fighting as much as the next guy but the reality is it is time to get it out of the sport. They have done a reasonably good job eliminating the brutality of the way the game was played. High speed hits and blind side hits are pretty much gone. Stick work is lessened. An emphasis on speed and agility has become the norm. Smaller players are now more successful.

The game has changed.

It is time to eliminate fighting. No other team sport has it as an acceptable practise. We are getting close to a full generation of players that have grown up with it being highly restricted at minimum.

Allow the on ice officials to police the game and maybe look at video for high tension infractions. Continue to increase the suspensions for idiot plays.

With all the evidence regarding the head injuries as well as the PTSD associated to fighting and enforcers, it is getting really hard to truly justify it anymore.

There are very few hockey players that ever say they loved fighting.

 

[OHLTG]

No other team sport has it as an acceptable practise.

It's not "acceptable" to the league. You get a major for it. Plus, lacrosse still has it. The concept has its pros and cons, most of which are downright dust at this point.

 

[windsor7]

It's not "acceptable" to the league. You get a major for it. Plus, lacrosse still has it. The concept has its pros and cons, most of which are downright dust at this point.

Its for dinosaurs
Branch killed the fighting a few years ago.

 

[BadgerBruce]

“According to hockeyfights.com, the 18-team QMJHL had 323 pre-season and regular season fights last season, which was just two fewer than the 20 team Ontario League had, but substantially fewer than the 22-team Western League, which had 528 fights.”

https://www.si.com/hockey/news/will-qmjhl-change-its-fighting-rules-to-get-government-money

 

[OMG67]

It's not "acceptable" to the league. You get a major for it. Plus, lacrosse still has it. The concept has its pros and cons, most of which are downright dust at this point.

It is simply a penalty.

If you fight in Football, Soccer, Basketball, or any other major team sport, you are ejected and most likely suspended for a long time.

Lacrosse is the exception.

I just cannot justify it anymore. Not with the science behind head injuries and their long term effects. I know you probably agree but I just don’t understand why anyone is still on the side of allowing it anymore.

Personally, I don’t understand why they don’t wear face masks as well. Eye injuries and dental/facial injuries etc are a big scare as well....at least at the Junior Level.

 

[OHLTG]

It is simply a penalty.

It's still not allowed, just like hooking, slashing, boarding, checking-from-behind, headshots, etc etc etc. Nobody would say "they allow checking from behind!", right?

Do I think the random, off-the-draw fights are worth it? Nope. Going for the sake of going is long gone, and rightfully so. I've heard/seen a few things over my time that I know won't happen again.

Do I think heat-of-the-moment fights are still going to happen? Yes. Not everyone will agree, but, outside of lacrosse, there isn't another game like hockey.

I'd be curious as to how many eye/face injuries happen in the OHL in any given season. I know there has been talk about going full face shield, whether it's the cage or a full plastic shield, but there was backlash due to visibility (going off memory, this was several years ago).

Don't get me wrong, I love a good, high-scoring game. I'll watch international games any chance I get. However, when you get rivals like Windsor/London, Ptbo/Oshawa, Saginaw/Flint, Leafs/Sabres, Flames/Oilers... those bring an energy that's tough to match. They're offensive, they're physical, and sometimes stuff happens. Those aren't going away anytime soon.

 

[AttackSound]

It is simply a penalty.

If you fight in Football, Soccer, Basketball, or any other major team sport, you are ejected and most likely suspended for a long time.

Lacrosse is the exception.

I just cannot justify it anymore. Not with the science behind head injuries and their long term effects. I know you probably agree but I just don’t understand why anyone is still on the side of allowing it anymore.

Personally, I don’t understand why they don’t wear face masks as well. Eye injuries and dental/facial injuries etc are a big scare as well....at least at the Junior Level.

Let's look at this very simplistic injuries in competitive sport is common maybe not at the frequency we've seen in the past but they do happen.

As you point out facial injuries or as the league spins it "Upper Body" injuries do happen. All the teams usually have some form of dental staff connected to them but not typically in house. To my knowledge Owen Sound has the only in house dental office with dentist on staff with proper dental facilities for immediate dental emergencies.

Unfortunately the OHL from a marketing standpoint chooses like the NHL to be able to market players faces to increase revenue but that's a whole other debate that could be put in a different thread for another time.

Personally I don't like seeing facial injuries happen in the game as the course of treatment is long and stressful for the players quoting a former Attack alumni "My Week was a stressful one, having 4 root canals this week" JB after said player took a puck to the facial area during a game the following week.

Unfortunately if we look at this whole situation the CHL could ban fighting or tighten the rules all they want but it's like stopping a bad weather for as much as we all dislike cold winter weather it happens from time to time. The last tilt a saw wasn't really tilt more of bear-hug match that saw both players tap each other on the shoulder afterwards and laugh about it to the penalty boxes. No one was injured and no form of league discipline was needed.

Thus making fights more a less a thing of the past now. Yes it's still a penalty but one that's becoming more and more less likely to happen as time progresses forward.

 

[Otto]

Why do we wear masks, practice physical distancing & practice proper hand hygiene? Because science says all three will help protect our fellow human from the spread of covid.

So, what does the science say about repeated blows to the head?

I used to love a good hockey fight. Until the science came out about CTE. It's time to get rid of it. Especially when it comes to teenagers