Fast forward to January 2006 and todays NHL offer will seem generous

Discussion in 'Fugu's Business of Hockey Forum' started by eye, Jan 28, 2005.

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  1. eye

    eye Registered User

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    Before some of you go spouting off that I'm repeating myself please hear me out. I think it's time for forward thinking people to stand up and be counted. The time for blame has long passed and the time for solutions is now. If your not part of the solution then your part of the problem.

    Today the players can salvage a more than reasonable 54% of agreed upon revenues which are obviously subject to 2 way scrutiny the same way it's done in the NFL and NBA.

    Today the players can salvage average salaries over 1.3 million.

    Today the players can win the PR war, regain the respect of the fans, they can take the high road, they can think of the fans, they can think of the employees and business operations that count on NHL games being played

    Today the players can get major concessions for agreeing to cost certainty.

    Today the players can continue to be treated like stars, stay in 5 star hotels, eat the best food money can buy, own a home, a cottage, a couple of cars, an SUV and a boat or two OR

    They can continue to spin their wheels on an uphill icy slope while they count lost player revenues, watch as the value and popularity of the NHL drops to the lowest levels in the history of the game and watch as they alienate fans from ever wanting to pay to see this breed of player ever play the game again.

    The stand for what some players say is for principal is admirable except that most of us normal people believe it's only about greed, ego, pride and money. Wars have been won and lost over principle and one thing is guaranteed after a war; the landscape is always drastically changed and players might be wise to dance with the devil they know vs. the devil they don't. Be careful what you hope for. The situation can only get worse for players.

    Fans can always find new entertainment options, hockey options and many of us would continue to support an NHL with a new breed of players. Players that are grateful for what they have - players that truly appreciate us the fans, players that understand that the tail doesn't wag the dog.
     
    Last edited: Jan 28, 2005
  2. Old Hickory

    Old Hickory Guest

    Good post. The players need to realize they are going to get 54% of the pie. The pie is currently 2 billion. The longer they wait, the smaller the pie is going to get, but they are still only going to get 54%
     
  3. 417

    417 Registered User

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    I suspect the players know that, should the season be cancelled, the offer will be significantly worse, and if they don't know that, #1 their idiots, but I imagine Goodenow and the others are well aware of this, which is why their going to hardline all the way to the bitter end, it would be stupid not to, but even more stupid to not settle this...remember 1994, it got to it's worse point before it was settled, same with the near strike in Baseball 2 years ago, the season is always lost right before the deal is done, it works like this in every negotiations, sports, business, life, I don't see why it would be different here, I just wish, for the fans sake (remember us?!) that the media would just put a gag order on themselves regarding the lockout until it's done, both sides would lose an allie, and be forced to hurry this up, everyone talks about Eklund and his credibility, but no one talks about all the crap the sports networks are spewing right now...

    Glenn Healy is a funny guy, I mean he's obvioulsy pro-player, but even though he says otherwise, he's still an important player for the PA, and to think he dosen't play a factor in this is ignorant, i'm saying he's getting compensation for what he's doing, but as an ex-PA member, you still have a duty to your fellow players, even if Healy knew the PA was going to accept a deal, he'd keep saying the same thing to the end
     
  4. GKJ

    GKJ Global Moderator

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    The owners have the same pie. Maybe they should start making concession and we'll have a season.
     
  5. Hockey_Nut99

    Hockey_Nut99 Guest

    If the pie dropped to 1 billion I bet these greedy monkeys would still ask for 54%. They would probably blame the nhl for creating yet another mess.
     
  6. eye

    eye Registered User

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    At least 20 of the 30 owners are losing money so they are not directly affected by how long it takes to settle this thing. They could conceivably wait 2 or 3 years or longer if necessary and know that once the NHL starts up again they will recover their franchise values and their losses in a very short time.

    Only the players and the current reputation of the NHL stand to lose here.
     
  7. The Fuhr*

    The Fuhr* Guest


    Why should the owners have to make concessions? it's there buisness. Yes the owners have screwed up for the last 10 years but now they want to fix there mistakes. The owners are the ones that pay upwards of 200 million dollars a team plus the arena. If the owners want to bring about a hard cap they have every right to do it. They are the ones that pay the paychecks and the players have to realize that they can not dictate what kind of system they want to play under. Bottom line is the owners paid for these franchises and if I paid 200 million for a franchise Id want to make singnificant profit on my investment.
     
  8. Greschner4

    Greschner4 Registered User

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    Agreed, and I'd make the point even more strongly by saying this: The Capitals' owner could put the Portland Pirates in Caps uniforms, cut ticket prices in half and probably make a profit. Compare that to the $20-30 million yearly losses he incurs operating the Capitals and you'll see exactly who has the leverage here.
     
  9. eye

    eye Registered User

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    Avid HF posters right now are 194 pro owner to 58 pro player on this dispute which I sense is pretty reflective of how fans feel everywhere.

    I travel to 4 provinces and 5 states for my business and I get similar viewpoints at about 75% pro owner everywhere I go.
     
  10. Egil

    Egil Registered User

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    WRONG. The players could easily extract 56%, maybe even 57% of the pie from the owners. If the players proposed the present NHL offer, with the cap changes occuring at 56% of revenue, instead of 54%, the NHL would jump all over it, IMHO.

    The NHL went higher in December, and got no responce from the Union, so they arn't going to budge until the Union starts talking linkage. Once that occurs, then the owners will come up from 54% of revenue. If you remember the December press conferences, Bettman stated that witht he 24% rollback, player salaries would be 56.6% of revenue, and that the NHL offered 54% or revenue. He then STRONGLY hinted the NHL would move up to the 56.6% level, if the PA agreed to linkage.
     
  11. shakes

    shakes Pep City

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    The players are the product. Damn straight a player can and should have a say in what kind of system they play under.
     
  12. shakes

    shakes Pep City

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    It should be at least 60/40 in favour of the players. No way it should be any less.
     
  13. The Fuhr*

    The Fuhr* Guest


    It's not like the players arn't going to be making millions of dollars if there is linkage between saleries and revenue. If the owners want that they should get that no question asked.
     
  14. Jaded-Fan

    Jaded-Fan Registered User

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    Long and short of it is that the Owners have all of the leverage:

    1) All have other revenues. If they wanted to make more money on their investment, they would have invested other places than a sports team. They can withstand a strike.

    2) Most are losing money anyways and all see that if things continue unchanged even the Detroits and Torontos suffer as teams go down. A Red Wings in a 30 team environment is worth much more than a Red Wings in a six team environment.

    3) Players have on average a four year career. They just lost a quarter of that, want to try for half by losing next year too?

    4) If the owners stand firm and get their cap franchise values will soar, more than making up for any 'losses' this past year when they would have lost money by having a season anyways.

    I just do not see much risk for the owners, nor much pain, in sticking it out. The only leverage players ever have in this is a divided ownership, between the haves and have nots among owners. Baseball's union is strong solely because of this. In the NHL? Bettman took that away before this strike even started, no way big market teams can possibly break off giving the NHLPA a chance. The result was a forgon conclusion before this even started, the only question is how long it will be before the players get it?
     
  15. futurcorerock

    futurcorerock Registered User

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    Right now the clock ticks away for the players. I honestly don't think the players can make the owners budge a year from now on anything.... then, the owners will be laughing in their face.

    However, with this I think hockey would be its most depressing to have players who may not want to come back to what their union must be promising is economic hardship
     
  16. PeterSidorkiewicz

    PeterSidorkiewicz HFWF Tourney Undisputed Champion

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    What exactly was part of your solution and not the problem in that post? You said the time for blame has passed but it just looks like your entire post was just blaming the players on why they should accept the owners proposal. I dont see any solution there.
     
  17. Russian Fan

    Russian Fan Registered User

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    It's so funny that's I don't think it's funny.

    People who read my post through many threads in the business of hockey area know that I'm not a pro-player, i'm more of a moderate in this but to only view the PLAYERS LOSS & to think that the owners don't care to go on a lockout after this years is just non-sense.

    Yes I agree that the pie for the player will be very diminish with the next years proposal but why is that ? Because the owners pie will diminish too.

    People are saying that they have a lot to lose in this & that's true but to think that the owners does not have anything to lose because they ''supposedly'' loss less without playing hockey is FAR FROM THE TRUTH.

    NHL Franchise value will drop at an all-time low , some franchise are worth 100 millions today & with a 1 year lockout it go as low as 30M$ franchise value per team that means around 50 to 70M$ value loss per team & we are talking about 1 ot 2 BILLION$$$$ !!!!!!! LOSS !!! in this. maybe even MORE !!!

    Many OWNERS also got other enterprise related to the hockey industry as for example people in Phoenix who want to build condominiums, malls around the arena. It could be tough to sell after that. How about losing 40 nights of hockey in the arena ? I can't believe the Shriner's circus or the Harlem Globetrotters will fill those night & give those revenue the same as a hockey game.

    Just to say that there's 2 SIDES to every story & not because 1 side does not want to show his weakness in this does not mean they have absolutely nothing to lose.

    If the owners had NOTHING TO LOSE AT ALL in this , they wouldn't have tried to negotiate a settlement the last 2 weeks , they would have told the PA ''Call us when you think a cap is the only way to make it work''.

    My 2 cents.
     
  18. GKJ

    GKJ Global Moderator

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    The reputation of the NHL is already piss poor, the only thing that makes it worse is your beloved commish stepping to the podium and announcing that the season is canceled. Any momentum the NHL has in gaining most of these southern markets has been obliterrated. This is the work of Gary Bettman. Maybe if the product on the ice was better to watch, maybe if it was more attractive to a casual person, the casual fan would pay attention more. When the playoffs were on the NHL had a lousy marketing scheme for it (actually they has no marketing scheme). Commercials on ESPN had boring workers at a plant which was a boring commerical vs. the NBA having the Black Eyed Peas remaking one of the biggest songs of the year along with some former greats and Carlos Santana on it. What the hell is that? This is all a joke, and the sport won't get better until the commishioner starts taking the sport seriously. He is entrenched on this salary cap and nothing else. In reality, we're in this mess because Bettman has dnoe nothing but hurt the sport since he walked into the door. He was more concerned with expanding to the south, and keeping up with the other sports to get to a magical 30 teams. He gave teams to markets without ever truly making sure they were viable markets for hockey.

    To suggest that franchise values will be made up in a short time is dilusional at best. Maybe if some of these teams had proper marketing schemes, sane business people, exposure, just some competance by the caretaker of the sport we wouldn't be in this mess, and the sport would be thriving. None of this has to do with player salaries, if it was that much of an issue 5 years ago when the owners supposedly wanted to start talking a new deal, maybe they shouldn't have given guys outrageous salaries. And now we are on the verge of doing something not even baseball has done, and that is cancel an entire season. We all saw what happened to baseball and that is America's pasttime, they still haven't completely recovered and it's 10 years later. What happens to a sport in America that's not even one of the top 4 or 5 sports as it is? It goes down the toilet is the answer and will probably be as popular cricket is.

    You can take whatever side you want in CBA neogeotiations, but the fact of the matter is we're in this mess because of Gary Bettman. The players have nothing to do with all the things I just mentioned that Gary Bettman has done. Now if there is no season, you will see empty arenas. It's not because angry fans are boycotting the sport, it's because they could really care less. There were really only 3 markets doing any kind of good in the south, one is Los Angeles (they were always up and down), one is Tampa Bay (only because they won a Stanley Cup), and one is Dallas (won a Stanley Cup, but is also legitmatelly developing a viable hockey market, they have built about 25 new ice rinks, has good attendance rates and one of its hockey programs called the Texas Tornado has developed legit NHL prospects and sent them to division I hockey schools). Other than that you have Gary Bettman trying to force hockey down the throats, most of which probably don't really want it, lost a ton of money, and it's because of these markets that most people would argue shouldn't have hockey, that we are in this lockout, because fans don't care because frankly the product is not as good as it was in the 80's, teams don't make money, and therefore they want to complain they can't afford to comepete with the teams in the North.


    It's really quite simple. I don't call myself pro-PA, even though I do lean to their side. I lean to their side for one reason, and that is because the owners have put in control of the sport, their business venture, a complete and utter imbicile who has absolutely no idea what he is doing.
     
  19. AM

    AM Registered User

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    Lol

    Yes they draw from the same money, too bad their expences are bigger then their piece!
     
  20. GKJ

    GKJ Global Moderator

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    why don't you read the post, i can already tell you didn't read the whole thing. You opinion of the post is uninformed until you do (that is not opinion, that is a fact)


    The players are the product. You don't go to hockey games to watch owners and GM's work the phones. They should be paid adequetally for their part in a $2B business.
     
  21. AM

    AM Registered User

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    I read it all

    Fact is, the owners have no reason to go back till they can make money and market their teams. The only way that happens is if they get cost certainty and competative balance.

    ITs too bad for the players that they are against that.
     
  22. rekrul

    rekrul Registered User

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    I'm not sure if its been mentioned but this time it certainly feels like the 94 baseball strike. remember it certainly was a " well they can't be THAT stupid to lose the world series" well guess what as much as selig did not want to be that commish, there he was in all of his (non) glory. so everyone thought that well the replacements will test the union they will get thier cap, did it happen? NOPE they got a lousy system unless your team is in a big market.

    NHLPA loves the MLBPA think this is over because of fear of losing everything, HAH! baseball only figured out that caving ( from the owners ) in 2002 was the best choice so close to 9/11 plus the dynamic is much more splintered within the ownership group.

    is this over because they will get scabs, i bet my morgage Greedenow thinks exactly what Fuer thought in 1994, the owners will cave, in our resolve is very underestimated.
     
  23. Egil

    Egil Registered User

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    Why? If we put league revenues at $2.1 Billion, then 60% of revenue translates to $42 Mil per team for player costs. This leaves $28 Mil for the owners to pay 100+ team employees (including coaches and GM's), MARKETING COSTS, Referees, Rink Rentals/upkeep, Travel Expenses, etc. Some of these costs are ESSENTIAL to a team functioning (and I would guess teams non-player payrolls exceed $10 Mil dollars), and some like Marketing are CRITICAL to the long term viability of the league (and future increases of revenues to the players).

    I don't think the league can adequately cover these expenses with $28 Million, and marketing is bound to suffer.

    If we use 54% of revenue, then the owners have an extra $4.2 Million to work with.

    Now, possibly a joint marketing initiative could be undertaken by the league, and the players if the costs are higher. But marketing the league should be a major expense, and is benefitial to both the owners and the players.

    Also, I think eye is correct in his assertion that after the season is "really" cancelled, the offers won't be getting any better. The NHL owners will surely learn from the 1994 Baseball strike, where the WS was cancelled, and the owners really got didly squat out of it, which made the fans even more anoyed. You can cave, but it has to be now, and not after the season has been cancelled.
     
  24. Jaded-Fan

    Jaded-Fan Registered User

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    One huge difference. Bettman assured that the owners can not divide into groups of haves and have nots in any way that will undermine negotiations. The Detroits of the world can scream but they gave Bettman the power to implement whatever system he can, including revenue sharing. Baseball never gave Selig that power, and therefore the owners split everytime and caved.
     
  25. Poignant Discussion*

    Poignant Discussion* I tell it like it is

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    Fast forward to January 2006 and today's NHL teams values will seem generous

    The longer this crap goes on, the more team's values will lower. Columbus which is worth 147 Million today will be lucky to stay above the expansion price of 80 million.

    The new building in Pittsburgh will become an after thought since there is not a NBA team in Pittsburgh

    Teams like Nashville and Tampa will lose the fans they aquired during their playoff runs.

    Fox Sports will unless its settled before fall of 2006, will start showing the arena football league again.

    Ya the players will lose more than the owners....ya right


    This is the reason why there are 2 camps for the owners, and eventually the camp with the big market teams will start pushing the issue

    I still think its "cute" when "fans" of hockey are sticking up for billionaire owners who could care LESS if you ever see another professional hockey game again
     
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