Fan 590's Howard Berger: Contentious debate about draft

[Jester]

there's no good answer.

1. weighted lottery

positives - allows teams that have a history of sucking over the past few years a better chance at a good pick in the draft.

negatives - allows teams that have had the opportunity to draft very high in the last few years an advantage based on how they performed under the old system. in the new world the big boys are going to lose out on a lot of UFA's they would have signed before, while having depleted systems through trades and low draft picks inherited from the previous system.

2. completely open lottery

positives - allows everyone a shot at crosby equally... thus no one can complained that they got short-changed in the lottery side of it.

negatives - teams that have struggled will be absolutely furious if he goes to an already strong team in one of the big markets... though, what will they say if a team like Tampa gets him?

3. weighted lottery among a selected group of teams.

positive - similar to one, teams that struggled under the old system will be allowed to get a good shot at crosby.

negatives - further alienates the teams that were good before, but in reality no longer exist due to contract death... and inability to sign UFA's on the market.

so yeah:

i lean towards having it completely open -- not just because i'm a flyers fan -- since in reality it is a new NHL. the teams are no longer the same... they simply don't exist anymore. many of the "crappy" teams have had high draft picks over the years and are in much better positions to move forward into the new CBA than the big teams... in reality, they are already at an advantage. they have cap flexibility, younger players, etc...

it sux that we didn't play a season in the end, and a solution needs to be reached. there is no completely fair solution, but some sort of compromise is going to have to be made. my guess is that they will settle on a weighted lottery, but a weighting that isn't nearly as heavy as the "weaker" teams would like. the big boys will have a legit shot at a high pick in this draft, and i think they should have one.

 

[Hawker14]

i'd like to see all 30 nhl teams have an equal shot at crosby.

i) all teams will now have the same salary cap to work under
ii) there are enough free agents available that the teams' records over the last 3-4 seasons doesn't necessarily dictate how strong or weak they will be in '05-'06

 

[futurcorerock]

Right now the NHL REALLY REALLY REALLY needs respectability coming out of this mess of a year.

Letting the easily recognisable best teams having a shot at " The next Gretzky" is absolutely not the way to do it. Just imagine how the mainstream national US media will react to that one? They will laugh and bash the NHL even more then they already do.

Does the NHL need USA Sports Media talking heads trashing the sport even more? Yeah lets scare off any potential fans some by hearing things like " Fixed lottery" or "Absurd Lottery"

So with that in mind, how is giving a team like the Red Wings a fair shake at drafting one of the most hyped amateur athletes ever? Talk about one joke of a draft if that went down.

The consensus safe pick is to measure the combined records over the past 3 seasons.

 

[Master Shake*]

there is absolutly no way that every team should have a good shot...i mean, that's not even common sense to give tampa bay who just won the cup a shot at the "next gretzky."

Best way to do it is this. Take every team except Calgary and Tampa, that last made the playoffs out. Take the average records for the last 3 years and weight the odds. Put them in a seperate lottery for the last half of the draft. Tampa is last and calgary is 29th.

Take every team that didnt make the playoffs 04, take their average record for the last 3 years and weight the odds based on that. Then have a lottery for those teams.

Then you have the draft snake. So Tampa will have 2 picks back to back. 30th and 31st. That is the fairest way to do it.

Having all 30 teams have a shot at the top picks is asinine and will make the league look like more of a joke then it already does to the US sports media.

 

[txpd]

I was being sarcastic.

But if you listen to some of the militant small market fans around here whine, you'd come away thinking that Crosby should only go to a money losing, bottom feeding Bible belt team.

oh come on now. the rangers have missed the playoffs 7 straight years. they finally gave up on a lot of their payroll and they deserve a shot at the top pick or a pick among the top. certainly FAR more than Tampa or Calgary do.

However, the fact is that over the last ten years the big payroll teams have far outperformed the small and medium payroll teams and so there are FAR more bad teams in the small payroll catagory than there are BAD teams in the big payroll catagory.

Therefore I have no problem with a system that gives the Rangers and the Blackhawks a shot at Crosby. On the other hand Tampa, Colorado, Dallas, Detroit and so on should have NO shot at Crosby unless its thru a trade.

It has less to do what market sizes there are involved as much as it has to do with a winning team getting crosby. I am sure Toronto fans would love to come up with a scenario where they DESERVE Sidney Crosby. How long has it been since they missed the playoffs?? There is no scenario where they deserve a top draft choice whomever it might be. Same with the Flyers and the Sens and the Stars and the Canucks and the Avalanche.

 

[Master Shake*]

oh come on now. the rangers have missed the playoffs 7 straight years. they finally gave up on a lot of their payroll and they deserve a shot at the top pick or a pick among the top. certainly FAR more than Tampa or Calgary do.

However, the fact is that over the last ten years the big payroll teams have far outperformed the small and medium payroll teams and so there are FAR more bad teams in the small payroll catagory than there are BAD teams in the big payroll catagory.

Therefore I have no problem with a system that gives the Rangers and the Blackhawks a shot at Crosby. On the other hand Tampa, Colorado, Dallas, Detroit and so on should have NO shot at Crosby unless its thru a trade.

It has less to do what market sizes there are involved as much as it has to do with a winning team getting crosby. I am sure Toronto fans would love to come up with a scenario where they DESERVE Sidney Crosby. How long has it been since they missed the playoffs?? There is no scenario where they deserve a top draft choice whomever it might be. Same with the Flyers and the Sens and the Stars and the Canucks and the Avalanche.

great post

 

[Jester]

Best way to do it is this. Take every team except Calgary and Tampa, that last made the playoffs out. Take the average records for the last 3 years and weight the odds. Put them in a seperate lottery for the last half of the draft. Tampa is last and calgary is 29th.

there is NO WAY that is fair to Tampa and Calgary. they are not the same teams they were a year ago, and will be even different when the next season starts and the UFA's all work themselves out.

people need to get over this whole past three season thing. those seasons are completely irrelevant to the state of the teams going forward in the NHL. something like 50% of the league is going to be some kind of FA on June 1st i believe. a salary cap will be in effect... players are going to move all over the place, it is going to be absolute chaos.

the NHL that was -- as far as players on teams -- no longer exists. the core of teams will be there, but none of the surrounding players and MANY MANY really good FA's will be out there that small clubs will have a very good chance at signing due ot the salary cap restraint on the big markets.

 

[Jester]

oh come on now. the rangers have missed the playoffs 7 straight years. they finally gave up on a lot of their payroll and they deserve a shot at the top pick or a pick among the top. certainly FAR more than Tampa or Calgary do.

disregarding the fact that Ranger spending practices are a large portion of the reason we are in this fiscal mess in the first place.

 

[free0717]

I think the team who has missed the playoffs the most times in a row should have the most weight in the Lottery. "The New York Rangers"

 

[Jester]

I think the team who has missed the playoffs the most times in a row should have the most weight in the Lottery. "The New York Rangers"

we're rewarding teams for stupidity now?

 

[Glacier]

I'm tired of seing Mediocre teams getting rewarded for doing absolutely nothing. Give the Presidents Trophy winner the 1st overall pick as a reward. Then the rest I don't really care about.

 

[HSHS]

people need to get over this whole past three season thing. those seasons are completely irrelevant to the state of the teams going forward in the NHL. something like 50% of the league is going to be some kind of FA on June 1st i believe. a salary cap will be in effect... players are going to move all over the place, it is going to be absolute chaos.

-Draft order is about the past, not the future.

-Tough thing is that this past "season" is a mystery just like the future under the new CBA.

 

[HSHS]

we're rewarding teams for stupidity now?

Well maybe they'll be stupid enough to pass on Crosby!!

 

[RangerBoy]

The Rangers point totals from the past four seasons are 72,80,78 and 69.Seven seasons with no playoffs Gimme a break

JFJ must have read the paper this morning.His boss and fellow GM with the Raptors are on the chopping block

Toronto has made the playoffs every year in the past four seasons.They were going to make them again in 2004-05

 

[Jester]

The Rangers point totals from the past four seasons are 72,80,78 and 69.Seven seasons with no playoffs Gimme a break

JFJ must have read the paper this morning.His boss and fellow GM with the Raptors are on the chopping block

Toronto has made the playoffs every year in the past four seasons.They were going to make them again in 2004-05

i'm fine with bleeding heart stuff from Oiler fans... but Ranger fans... please. when you are leading the league in spending it's your own fault, you deserve nothing from no one. especially when salary escalation was the staple export out of MSG over the past 10 years.

 

[RangerBoy]

One NHL manager described this as a "big debate" item. But, it's important to note this system would be used one-time only with an inverted order for round two, so if a team (ie, Anaheim) wins the first pick in the lottery, then that team (Anaheim) automatically claim the 60th pick (last pick, second round) overall

http://www.sportsnet.ca/hockey/article.jsp?content=20050408_145945_6192

 

[Jester]

-Draft order is about the past, not the future.

-Tough thing is that this past "season" is a mystery just like the future under the new CBA.

when you can do it that way... absolutely. however, the past has much less weight on what the shape of teams will be in 2005-2006 than in a normal season. given the implementation of a cap, and the number of FA's... it's going to be insane.

big boys will not be able to gobble up the marquee UFA's and everything else.

 

[topshelf331]

Maybe they should have a mid season draft based on the standings tus far.

 

[jamiebez]

Five pages and no one has thought of this idea yet....

Raise the draft age to 19. In other words, don't have a draft at all this year! Next year's draft is business as usual.

Come on, I'd rather the time they spend bickering about this be used to craft a new CBA, or even discuss rule changes. The NHL can live without Crosby for a year.

I'm a big proponent of this, because I think 18 is too young to really evaluate a lot of players (especially goalies). This is why we've seen so many first-round busts. Go back and look at any draft here:
http://www.hockeydb.com/ihdb/draft/index.html
and look at the stats for first rounders. You'll see a lot of guys who never played a game, whereas some later-round choices like, say, Alfredsson, have become stars.

This punishes the teams who scout well and are able to grab these late-round gems (like Ottawa) but it's another way to level the playing field. Isn't that what a draft is supposed to do?

 

[fifty_in39]

I'm tired of seing Mediocre teams getting rewarded for doing absolutely nothing. Give the Presidents Trophy winner the 1st overall pick as a reward. Then the rest I don't really care about.

There is no alternative, Sidney Crosby MUST go to the NY Rangers. It's the only way NHL hockey will get back to the front burner of North American sports.

 

[Morbo]

I am sure Toronto fans would love to come up with a scenario where they DESERVE Sidney Crosby. How long has it been since they missed the playoffs?? There is no scenario where they deserve a top draft choice whomever it might be. Same with the Flyers and the Sens and the Stars and the Canucks and the Avalanche.

You already got rewarded for sucking. You got Ovechkin.

 

[Jester]

You already got rewarded for sucking. You got Ovechkin.

exactly.

what if he's the next gretzky? is it fair for the caps to get both? no.

 

[txpd]

Washington is a fat cat team that tried to buy a winner for years, but failed because their management was STUPID. In fact, Washington was directly responsible for undermining Pittsburgh's operation when they got Jagr and signed Robert Lang!

Ted Leonsis' decision to dump everyone was a hockey related decision. I have a hard time believing that a couple of million dollars in losses could undermine the financial wellbeing of a multi-billionaire.

Stephen, do you know anything about the Washington Capitals? Really? Washington tried to "buy a winner for years...". Which years are you talking about?
Does two and a half years qualify as "for years"????

Lets be clear on this crap and stop it right now. The Capitals traded for Jagr. It blew up in their face. It was horrible, but did you really want another salary dump superstar ending up in New York or Detroit? The Capitals signed one free agent, Robert Lang. At $5m he is far from the top tier of free agents. Let me say this one more time. The Capitals signed ONE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Does one count as trying to buy a championship when the Wings had...lets see...Hasek, Cujo, Schneider, Hatcher, Hull, Whitney, etc. All but two of which made more than Lang.

Yes, the Caps had the 8th or 9th largest payroll in the league, but that was more to do with them keeping their home grown stars. Kolzig, Gonchar, Bondra, Witt, Johansson, Konowalchuk, Klee. When the Capitals had Witt, Gonchar, Klee and Johansson they had the longest tenure of 4 defensemen playing together in the NHL. When did they buy those players?? They drafted them.

Lets add the reason the Capitals got Jagr and Lang was because they were a solid playoff team in the middle of the payroll pack when you could go back ten years and not find a Stanley cup winner that was not in the top 10 in payroll.

I will add my two cents in on your Penguins comments. You are not honestly saying that had the Capitals not traded for Jagr and signed Lang that they would still be in Pittsburgh, are you?? If not in Washington, Jagr would for sure have been a New York Ranger along with Kasperitis and Kovalev. Did the Rangers undermine the Pens by trading for Kovalev? Did the Kings for trading for Straka?
or are you trying to say that Ted Leonsis orchestrated those trades too?

IF Lang didn't sign in Washington it is fairly widely known that the Red Wings wanted to sign him and were disappointed that the Caps grabbed him so fast. That all came out when Lang was traded to Detroit. Those players were gone along with anyone else that was good in Pittsburgh and you are blaming that on Leonsis why?

I sort of think that you are misinformed. The Capitals have been in the top 10 in league payroll for the 3 Jagr seasons and that is it. They are NOT a fat cat team.
to call them that is funny.

 

[HSHS]

Five pages and no one has thought of this idea yet....

Raise the draft age to 19. In other words, don't have a draft at all this year! Next year's draft is business as usual.

Come on, I'd rather the time they spend bickering about this be used to craft a new CBA, or even discuss rule changes. The NHL can live without Crosby for a year.

I'm a big proponent of this, because I think 18 is too young to really evaluate a lot of players (especially goalies). This is why we've seen so many first-round busts. Go back and look at any draft here:
http://www.hockeydb.com/ihdb/draft/index.html
and look at the stats for first rounders. You'll see a lot of guys who never played a game, whereas later-round choices like, say, Alfredsson, have become stars.

This punishes the teams who scout well and are able to grab these late-round gems (like Ottawa) but it's another way to level the playing field. Isn't that what a draft is supposed to do?

Though on the surface I agree with you, I read an article somewhere that changed my mind. I can't even remember their point either.

I'm sure someone will mention why it doesn't work.

 

[RangerBoy]

i'm fine with bleeding heart stuff from Oiler fans... but Ranger fans... please. when you are leading the league in spending it's your own fault, you deserve nothing from no one. especially when salary escalation was the staple export out of MSG over the past 10 years.

Who made you judge and jury buddy?Look at the point totals,the numbers don't lie.Most Ranger fans knows their franchise has been poorly run for years.You are not telling us something we don't know.Want do you want to do?Take the standings from the past 3-4 years but exclude the Rangers.Get off you soapbox Or give the Flyers a top five draft pick.They don't spend money.Comcast prints money

I love been lectured by a Flyer fan about spending money