Speculation: Expansion Talk

[Lil Sebastian Cossa]

Where did he say that you had to use the same logic for those players?

Exactly. One player is the captain and is an avowed leader with ridiculous hockey IQ who is still one of the most productive players even as a shell of himself and the others are guys who got long term deals

 

[obey86]

Where did he say that you had to use the same logic for those players?

Why wouldn't you? They provide leadership, experience, and team continuity as well. That was his entire argument about why Zetterberg needs to be kept at all costs.

Exactly. One player is the captain and is an avowed leader with ridiculous hockey IQ who is still one of the most productive players even as a shell of himself and the others are guys who got long term deals

Justin Abdelkader, who everyone hates, has nearly as many points as Zetterberg does. Let's not pretend that Zetterberg's production is on a different level. As he becomes older, he's going to get slower and worse as well.

Oh. You were talking about protecting him vs not protecting him. I thought you were talking about we should leave him unprotected so he gets taken and the money is off our books. That's what I meant with the Pulkkinen, Hoggan, Callahan thing.
I understand the rules, I just misunderstood your exact point because I was thinking one way and you were another.

I'm still confused as to what you mean with Hoggan, Callahan, etc as it relates to the expansion draft.

Anyways, I don't think they should use a protection spot on Zetterberg because A) I don't think anyone would select him at his old age, vastly declining play, and expensive cap hit and B) even if they do select him I don't think it's going to hurt the team much if it all.

Why would an expansion team, likely to be very bad for a few seasons, want to pay $6 million a year to a 37 year old with a $6M cap hit..who is only going to slow down more and get worse from the time he is selected? They will most likely be looking for younger players who still have some untapped upside or at least players who are still in or near their prime. I don't see the reason why an expansion team would select Z and therefore I don't think he's worth protecting. And if they do select him, oh well.

 

[ap3x]

Why wouldn't you? They provide leadership, experience, and team continuity as well. That was his entire argument about why Zetterberg needs to be kept at all costs.

So, leadership, experience and - if you like - team continuity of the team's captain and alternate captain are worth as much as those qualities of every other player that's been here quite a while? His point was rather that you do not simply displace a captain who's leading example in that regard. Especially when he spent all his NHL career with a winged wheel on his chest.

That you've to keep every player that's providing those qualities is a straw man made up by you.

 

[obey86]

So, leadership, experience and - if you like - team continuity of the team's captain and alternate captain are worth as much as those qualities of every other player that's been here quite a while? His point was rather that you do not simply displace a captain who's leading example in that regard. Especially when he spent all his NHL career with a winged wheel on his chest.

That you've to keep every player that's providing those qualities is a straw man made up by you.

Captains are displaced all the time in sports. Teams survive just fine. You have to move on eventually at some point....otherwise, why not just sign him to a lifetime contract?

Abdelkader also leads by example, has worn the A from time to time, and has spent his entire NHL career with a Winged Wheel on his chest. While he lacks the IQ of Z obviously, he also provides physicality, the ability to fight from time to time, the ability to skate pretty well, a net front presence, the ability to PK....things that Z does not provide at this point in his career. So, you can point to things that Z has that Abs and Ericsson don't, but Abs and Ericsson also provide things that Z doesn't.

 

[FissionFire]

I'd be very disappointed if we lost a quality player just so we could protect guys at the end of the line like Zetterberg and Kronwall just for sentimentality and loyalty. These are the types of tough business choices the Wings have avoided making for years that has led to the current situation. You have to protect the players who can help you for the next decade, not the ones who did in the last one.

 

[obey86]

I'd be very disappointed if we lost a quality player just so we could protect guys at the end of the line like Zetterberg and Kronwall just for sentimentality and loyalty. These are the types of tough business choices the Wings have avoided making for years that has led to the current situation. You have to protect the players who can help you for the next decade, not the ones who did in the last one.

Thank you.

I'm certainly ok with Z on the team for the next few years, but I would definitely take the chance of exposing him in the expansion draft. #1 - I don't think anyone else would actually take him at his age, declining play, and large cap hit and #2 - If they do take him despite that it's not the end of the world. "Oh well and thanks for everything Z" in my mind basically.

To me, that's worth leaving him exposed and rolling the dice that other team would prefer a younger player with upside.

 

[njx9]

Yes, it's certainly much better to tell Zetterberg he's no longer valuable so we can keep... what, exactly? Pulkkinen? Jurco? Sheahan? God forbid we lose any of those potential franchise cornerstones. Dumping your captain for mediocre, bottom 6 players is surely the route an all-star GM would go, especially when that captain will always be better than any of that junk.

 

[obey86]

Yes, it's certainly much better to tell Zetterberg he's no longer valuable so we can keep... what, exactly? Pulkkinen? Jurco? Sheahan? God forbid we lose any of those potential franchise cornerstones. Dumping your captain for mediocre, bottom 6 players is surely the route an all-star GM would go, especially when that captain will always be better than any of that junk.

You do realize that $6M in cap space has value...right? It's not Sheahan v. Zetterberg. It's Sheahan and the ability to use $6M in trades or FA or signing your own players vs. keeping Zetterberg.

People are too caught up in Zetterberg the name and star player from the past, as opposed to what Zetterberg actually is right now.....which is an average to below average 45-50 point 1st liner, who can't skate, is bad defensively, not very good at faceoffs, and can't produce or do anything really when not paired with Dylan Larkin. Right now he's basically the same caliber of player that Stephen Weiss was in Florida. And newsflash, he's only going to get worse and slower from this point on.

 

[SirloinUB]

Anyways, I don't think they should use a protection spot on Zetterberg because A) I don't think anyone would select him at his old age, vastly declining play, and expensive cap hit and B) even if they do select him I don't think it's going to hurt the team much if it all.

Why would an expansion team, likely to be very bad for a few seasons, want to pay $6 million a year to a 37 year old with a $6M cap hit..who is only going to slow down more and get worse from the time he is selected? They will most likely be looking for younger players who still have some untapped upside or at least players who are still in or near their prime. I don't see the reason why an expansion team would select Z and therefore I don't think he's worth protecting. And if they do select him, oh well.

I disagree with so much of what you are saying its making my head spin.

1) why wouldn't an expansion team want a Conn Smyth winning captain to help with initial ticket sales and instilling an organizational culture? I would be utterly shocked if an Unprotected Zetterberg goes unclaimed in an expansion draft.

2) This is just my opinion, but I would think Z is more likely to retire early with a different organization than an other, bringing the cap recapture back into the fold, so yes, it will hurt the team going forward.

3) Maybe I missed it but let's get into some specifics. If you don't think Z should be protected who are the 7 forwards YOU would protect instead. Unless I missed something it seems you want that 7th spot open for a Jurco/Pulkinnen etc. ill take 2-3 years of Z over those guys without a second thought or hesitation.

 

[njx9]

You do realize that $6M in cap space has value...right? It's not Sheahan v. Zetterberg. It's Sheahan and the ability to use $6M in trades or FA or signing your own players vs. keeping Zetterberg.

Unless he retires, and we get hit with recapture, in which case it's not at all $6M. I thought other posters had already gone over those ramifications. If he's here, he can LTIR like Franzen. Which other players should we be using that money to resign, that we can't otherwise resign?

If the entire goal is to get his money off the books, why not try to trade him for something of actual value, instead of the 'opportunity' to keep a bottom-six non-contributer?

People are too caught up in Zetterberg the name and star player from the past, as opposed to what Zetterberg actually is right now.....which is an average to below average 45-50 point 1st liner, who can't skate, is bad defensively, not very good at faceoffs, and can't produce or do anything really when not paired with Dylan Larkin. Right now he's basically the same caliber of player that Stephen Weiss was in Florida. And newsflash, he's only going to get worse and slower from this point on.

And yet, he's still better than any of the junk that we could protect, instead. Given that you think we could sign someone else, I'm curious, who? Do you think we'll actually outbid Toronto for Stamkos, *and* be the more desirable destination?

 

[obey86]

I disagree with so much of what you are saying its making my head spin.

1) why wouldn't an expansion team want a Conn Smyth winning captain to help with initial ticket sales and instilling an organizational culture? I would be utterly shocked if an Unprotected Zetterberg goes unclaimed in an expansion draft.

2) This is just my opinion, but I would think Z is more likely to retire early with a different organization than an other, bringing the cap recapture back into the fold, so yes, it will hurt the team going forward.

3) Maybe I missed it but let's get into some specifics. If you don't think Z should be protected who are the 7 forwards YOU would protect instead. Unless I missed something it seems you want that 7th spot open for a Jurco/Pulkinnen etc. ill take 2-3 years of Z over those guys without a second thought or hesitation.

I don't see how something that happened 8 years ago is relevant to the player Z is now. If they really want a Conn Smythe winner to draw fans to the area i'm sure they could sign BOTH Cam Ward and Brad Richards for less than Zetterberg makes.

Also, I'm sure opposing fans will be buying buying season tickets and telling all their friends so they can see a 45-50 point player who is one of the slowest players in the league, skate around the perimeter of the offensive zone and flick weak wristers from 30 feet away. RIVETING. He's such a draw for the fans right now that the Red Wings cant even get people to come to the game and fill the arena when the tickets are ALREADY PAID for and the game is "sold out".

Z has little value. If he was a free agent this offseason, no one in their right mind would sign a 36 year old Z to a 5 year contract at 6 million per year, let alone give anything of any real value for him in a trade.

Let me ask this to the people who want Zetterberg on this team so bad and would never consider getting rid of him because he's a "leader" or whatever.

Let's pretend Zetterberg is a free agent this coming offseason. You have two options:

A) Let him walk.
B) sign him to a 5 year deal at $6 million per year.

What option do you choose?

 

[Lil Sebastian Cossa]

Let me ask this to the people who want Zetterberg on this team so bad and would never consider getting rid of him because he's a "leader" or whatever.

Let's pretend Zetterberg is a free agent this coming offseason. You have two options:

A) Let him walk.
B) sign him to a 5 year deal at $6 million per year.

What option do you choose?

But that's not the situation.

He's already signed and carries a large potential penalty. He's going to be on the books in some way through the five years. I would rather have those 50 points and the ability to nullify the cap hit when he's too injured to play than face anywhere from 3-5M being tied up in literally nothing when he retires from Las Vegas.

 

[SirloinUB]

I don't see how something that happened 8 years ago is relevant to the player Z is now. If they really want a Conn Smythe winner to draw fans to the area i'm sure they could sign BOTH Cam Ward and Brad Richards for less than Zetterberg makes.

Also, I'm sure opposing fans will be buying buying season tickets and telling all their friends so they can see a 45-50 point player who is one of the slowest players in the league, skate around the perimeter of the offensive zone and flick weak wristers from 30 feet away. RIVETING. He's such a draw for the fans right now that the Red Wings cant even get people to come to the game and fill the arena when the tickets are ALREADY PAID for and the game is "sold out".

Z has little value. If he was a free agent this offseason, no one in their right mind would sign a 36 year old Z to a 5 year contract at 6 million per year, let alone give anything of any real value for him in a trade.

Name recognition would be big for a team looking to establish an identity. And that's without even acknowledging that Z, is still a good player.

More importantly, I am waiting for your list of protected players. Let's see your list of 7 forwards who are more important than Zetterberg, keeping in mind that Larkin is automatic and Pavel, Helm, Richards and Glendening have expiring contracts so they do not require protection either.

 

[obey86]

But that's not the situation.

He's already signed and carries a large potential penalty. He's going to be on the books in some way through the five years. I would rather have those 50 points and the ability to nullify the cap hit when he's too injured to play than face anywhere from 3-5M being tied up in literally nothing when he retires from Las Vegas.

You can't just assume he will ever be "too injured to play". You have to have an actual injury that makes you too injured to play. Most of the guys who have "retired" to LTIR have done it with concussion issues.

 

[InjuredChoker]

You can't just assume he will ever be "too injured to play". You have to have an actual injury that makes you too injured to play. Most of the guys who have "retired" to LTIR have done it with concussion issues.

i doubt he's back would pass a tight physical even now.

 

[FireBird71]

Let me ask this to the people who want Zetterberg on this team so bad and would never consider getting rid of him because he's a "leader" or whatever.

Let's pretend Zetterberg is a free agent this coming offseason. You have two options:

A) Let him walk.
B) sign him to a 5 year deal at $6 million per year.

What option do you choose?

Let him walk

 

[odin1981]

Even though I can be critical of Z at times. There is no way the Detroit Red Wings don't protect there captain.

While he is slowing down and regressing he is still producing 50'ish or so pts which is top 6f production. Your are mad for even trying to say to expose him.

 

[obey86]

So would someone like Axel Holmstrom be eligible? Isn't the SHL a "pro" league?

Also, Tyler Bertuzzi would be "entering" his 3rd year of pro hockey right? 2 years in the AHL at that point, entering his 3rd (either in the AHL or NHL).

Teams will have two options in who they protect: either they safeguard seven forwards, three defensemen and one goalie; or they protect eight skaters (whether they're defensemen or forwards) and one goalie.

First- and second-year pros -- including those playing pro hockey at any level -- will be exempt from the expansion draft. But if they're entering their third year of pro hockey, they're no longer exempt. Teams would have to either protect them or expose them.

 

[Lil Sebastian Cossa]

So would someone like Axel Holmstrom be eligible? Isn't the SHL a "pro" league?

Also, Tyler Bertuzzi would be "entering" his 3rd year of pro hockey right? 2 years in the AHL at that point, entering his 3rd (either in the AHL or NHL).

That's brilliant. Absolutely brilliant. Let a legitimate top 6 option who, even though he's one of the slowest guys on the ice, leads your team in points and is still a viable two-way #2C go so you can keep a lottery ticket who's true upside if he's a huge hit is likely to be a viable #2C.

This is a ridiculous discussion.

 

[obey86]

That's brilliant. Absolutely brilliant. Let a legitimate top 6 option who, even though he's one of the slowest guys on the ice, leads your team in points and is still a viable two-way #2C go so you can keep a lottery ticket who's true upside if he's a huge hit is likely to be a viable #2C.

This is a ridiculous discussion.

In 2 years he won't be. Let alone in 4 or 5 years.

Anyways, not sure what that response has to do with the post you responded to. I'm curious if Axel or Tyler would be eligible for this. Anyone know?

 

[InjuredChoker]

In 2 years he won't be. Let alone in 4 or 5 years.

Anyways, not sure what that response has to do with the post you responded to. I'm curious if Axel or Tyler would be eligible for this. Anyone know?

nobody knows because the rules haven't been set yet.

 

[obey86]

I don't get why people want to hold onto Z so bad...so we can squeak into the playoffs and get wrecked again per usual? Yippee. Time to bring on the next wave of players, give them an opportunity. If they fail, so be it. Better than being first round fodder every season for eternity. Sign Z to an extension while we're at it because he's so awesome.

 

[BinCookin]

Protected:

Forwards: Datsyuk (NMC;UFA); Zetterberg; Nyquist; Tatar; Abdelkader; Mantha; Athanasiou
Defense: Green, Kronwall, Dekeyser
Goalie: Mrazek

Exempt: Larkin, Svechnikov, Hicketts, Saarijarvi

Exposed:

Forwards: Helm(UFA), Sheahan, Jurco, Pulkkinen, Glendening, Bertuzzi, Miller(UFA), Franzen(LTIR)
Defense: Quincey(UFA), Ericsson, Smith(UFA), Marchenko, Ouellet, Russo
Goalies: Howard, Coreau

CAP Hit of those exposed here: ~21Million (made some assumptions on raises to some RFA's but easily > 25% of the wings current 73M CAP (According to GeneralFanager... I also used GF to determine NTC/NMC's)
*Also note i only added up players currently on roster, not prospects into the 21 Mil.

 

[BinCookin]

I don't get why people want to hold onto Z so bad...so we can squeak into the playoffs and get wrecked again per usual? Yippee. Time to bring on the next wave of players, give them an opportunity. If they fail, so be it. Better than being first round fodder every season for eternity. Sign Z to an extension while we're at it because he's so awesome.

He will Retire a Red Wing. We already voted on this. Most people want him to retire here.

 

[InjuredChoker]

I don't get why people want to hold onto Z so bad...so we can squeak into the playoffs and get wrecked again per usual? Yippee. Time to bring on the next wave of players, give them an opportunity. If they fail, so be it. Better than being first round fodder every season for eternity. Sign Z to an extension while we're at it because he's so awesome.

it's been explained many times why people want to keep him.

cap recapture. he'll only take one roster spot and maybe not even that for long if his decline continues (LTIRetirement).


what we want is pretty irrelevant anyways. holland is not going to expose him in the expansion draft. zero chance.