Even strength scoring by forwards in 14-15

[Curufinwe]

Our lack of secondary scoring is even worse than I thought.

ES minutes/ES Points = Minutes per ESP (OZ Start%)

Voracek 256/18 = 14.22 (59%)
Raffl 155/7 = 22.14 (54.8%)
BSchenn 238/10 = 23.08 (61.2%)
Giroux 289/12 = 24.08 (49.2%)
VandeVelde 105/3 = 35 (39.6%)
Couturier 253/7 = 36.14 (34.7%)
Simmonds 235/5 = 47 (54.7%)
Bellemare 189/4 = 47.25 (42.9%)
Read 239/5 = 47.8 (37.7%)
Lecavalier 117/2 = 58.5 (61.4%)
Umberger 205/3 = 68.33 (51.7%)
Rinaldo 120/1 = 120 (37.9%)

Click to read more...

 

[whitstifier]

Our lack of secondary scoring is even worse than I thought.

ES minutes/ES Points = Minutes per ESP

Voracek 256/18 = 14.22
Raffl 155/7 = 22.14
BSchenn 238/10 = 23.08
Giroux 289/12 = 24.08
VandeVelde 105/3 = 35
Couturier 253/7 = 36.14
Simmonds 235/5 = 47
Bellemare 189/4 = 47.25
Read 239/5 = 47.8
Lecavalier 117/2 = 58.5
Umberger 205/3 = 68.33
Rinaldo 120/1 = 120

I'd have to think that Laughton would help out a lot with scoring. Also, it might be time to separate Giroux and Voracek to give the lines more balance, now that Voracek's emerged as an elite player.

Raffl-Giroux-Simmonds
Schenn-Couturier-Voracek
Bellemare(hopefully)-Laughton-Read
[Leier/Umberger/Rinaldo]-Lecavalier-[Alderson/Umberger/Akeson]

EDIT: This is for next season. Secondary scoring should improve

 

[Curufinwe]

We really miss Raffl.

 

[Curufinwe]

The wingers dominate with five of the top 6 spots and Bellemare and Laughton in 11th and 12th place.

Minutes per ESP (OZ Start%)
Voracek - 36 ESP in 815:05 = 22.64 (63.5%)
VandeVelde 13 ESP in 397:17 = 30.53 (50%)
Giroux - 28 ESP in 878:06 = 31.36 (52.8&%)

Raffl - 15 ESP in 510:09 = 34 (56.8%)
Lecavalier - 12 ESP in 444:40 = 37 (60.5%)
BSchenn - 20 ESP in 769:21 = 38.45 (61.3%)

Couturier - 19 ESP in 782:20 = 41.16 (38.9%)
Simmonds - 16 ESP in 728:08 = 45.5 (52.1%)
Read - 16 ESP in 749:37 = 46.81 (40.8%)

Umberger - 11 ESP in 632:44 = 57.45 (45.1)
Bellemare - 8 ESP in 548:27 = 68.5 (47.9%)
Laughton - 5 ESP in 344:16 = 68.8 (50.8%)

Rinaldo - 2 ESP in 295:25 = 147.5 (47.8%)

 

[BackWithaVengeance]

No way Berube has the ballz to split up G and V.

 

[bb12]

The wingers dominate with five of the top 6 spots and Bellemare and Laughton in 11th and 12th place.

Minutes per ESP (OZ Start%)
Voracek - 36 ESP in 815:05 = 22.64 (63.5%)
VandeVelde 13 ESP in 397:17 = 30.53 (50%)
Giroux - 28 ESP in 878:06 = 31.36 (52.8&%)

Raffl - 15 ESP in 510:09 = 34 (56.8%)
Lecavalier - 12 ESP in 444:40 = 37 (60.5%)
BSchenn - 20 ESP in 769:21 = 38.45 (61.3%)

Couturier - 19 ESP in 782:20 = 41.16 (38.9%)
Simmonds - 16 ESP in 728:08 = 45.5 (52.1%)
Read - 16 ESP in 749:37 = 46.81 (40.8%)

Umberger - 11 ESP in 632:44 = 57.45 (45.1)
Bellemare - 8 ESP in 548:27 = 68.5 (47.9%)
Laughton - 5 ESP in 344:16 = 68.8 (50.8%)

Rinaldo - 2 ESP in 295:25 = 147.5 (47.8%)

People can bag on me for this and thats cool. I think those lines could be VERY good. I'd switch VL and Laughton but i wouldnt mind seeing those lines rolled. obviously put players in their correct positions.

 

[BillDineen]

Here is where Flyers forwards rank among all forwards in ESP:

#8 - Voracek
#36 - Giroux
#120 - B.Schenn
#143 - Couturier
#174 - Simmonds
#185 - Read
#207 - Raffl
#238 - VandeVelde
#244 - Lecavalier
#265 - Umberger

Keep in mind Flyers 5v5 ES F/A is 1.02 this year vs. .96 last year.

Last season:

#17 - Giroux
#56 - Voracek
#68 - Simmonds
#91 - Read
#97 - Hartnell
#108 - B.Schenn
#115 - Couturier
#193 - Lecavalier

(#188 Talbot, #256 Downie)

That is 7 players in top 115 last season vs. 2 this season. Hartnell vs Umberger, Read's play, Simmonds with his questionable linemates being juggled around are the negatives. Voracek is the positive.

Aside: Hartnell is #81 this season, ahead of last year. RJ was #222 last season.

Note: I was too lazy to say tied for #X and just put how they are listed on nhl.com

 

[deadhead]

Here is where Flyers forwards rank among all forwards in ESP:

#8 - Voracek
#36 - Giroux
#120 - B.Schenn
#143 - Couturier
#174 - Simmonds
#185 - Read
#207 - Raffl
#238 - VandeVelde
#244 - Lecavalier
#265 - Umberger

Keep in mind Flyers 5v5 ES F/A is 1.02 this year vs. .96 last year.

Last season:

#17 - Giroux
#56 - Voracek
#68 - Simmonds
#91 - Read
#97 - Hartnell
#108 - B.Schenn
#115 - Couturier
#193 - Lecavalier

(#188 Talbot, #256 Downie)

That is 7 players in top 115 last season vs. 2 this season. Hartnell vs Umberger, Read's play, Simmonds with his questionable linemates being juggled around are the negatives. Voracek is the positive.

Aside: Hartnell is #81 this season, ahead of last year. RJ was #222 last season.

Note: I was too lazy to say tied for #X and just put how they are listed on nhl.com

Some points -

with 30 teams, 1st line should average 45, 2nd 135, 3rd 225.


can't compare Hartnell to Umberger, Hartnell is on a much better line, put him on the third line and he'd be somewhere around Simmonds/Raffl, and far worse defensively. Last season he was #97, playing with V & G and a better defense. Move him off that line this year and we'd be talking #150 in Philly.

I think a lot of the dropoff is the Timonen effect, they don't have a defensemen with his passing skills on the roster right now. That hurts the 2nd and 3rd lines more, b/c they don't have playmakers like G and V who can skate the puck in and set up teammates. So they have to dump and chase.

Lecavalier and Umberger suck, at least Umberger can check and crash the net, not sure what Vinnie can do other than shoot from 20 feet away. Vinnie is a horrible Holmgren legacy, at least Umberger only has 2 years left and is an easy buyout after next season. I don't know what you do with Vinnie, can you park him in the AHL or just waive him and eat the cap hit?

Rinaldo is probably gone, I like his speed, aggressiveness and checking, but geez, you have to produce some offense if you're a forward, not miracles but 6-8 goals and 20 points on the 4th line would be nice, 0 goals, 2 assists in 36 games is pitiful (only 8 minutes a game, but still . . .).

PEB and VV are 4th line guys and are fine there, maybe put White with them for a nice "agitator" line. If I can get 20 goals, good checking and PK minutes out of my 4th line I'm happy.

But that leaves them a player short of 3 solid lines. V, G, Raffl, Simmonds, Couts, Read, Laughton, Schenn, uh, we need one guy who can replace Umberger /Vinnie. If that guy is a true 1st line guy that would be perfect, but no one in the system qualifies, and they'd have to trade young defensemen/draft picks to obtain one (trading forwards would just be shifting deck chairs). The other solution is to find a guy who's a good fit with V & G (complementary skills), Raffl might be the best on the roster. Read should bounce back and Laughton should improve with experience. But you need at least 10 (injuries WILL happen over a 80 game season).

In the system, are there any legitimate 3rd line guys? We're talking someone who can put up at least 30 ES points on a regular shift and play solid defense. [by the way the leaders in ES goals are Raffl with 12 and Couts and V with 10, VV and Schenn with 8 - so you are getting decent secondary scoring, given the circumstances].
Cousins, Straka, Leier, AK and Lindblom seem to be the only candidates.

 

[Striiker]

People can bag on me for this and thats cool. I think those lines could be VERY good. I'd switch VL and Laughton but i wouldnt mind seeing those lines rolled. obviously put players in their correct positions.

Holy **** no.

Vandevelde shouldn't be anywhere near the 1st line and Lecavalier should not EVER leave the 4th line.


If it were up to me

Raffl-Giroux-Voracek
Schenn-Couturier-Simmonds
Read-Laughton-Umberger
VV-Bellemare-Lecavalier

 

[bb12]

Holy **** no.

Vandevelde shouldn't be anywhere near the 1st line and Lecavalier should not EVER leave the 4th line.


If it were up to me

Raffl-Giroux-Voracek
Schenn-Couturier-Simmonds
Read-Laughton-Umberger
VV-Bellemare-Lecavalier

the post i was refering to had VL paired with schenn and simmons and Laughton with umberger and PEB. So switching VL and laughton would still have VL on the 4the 4th line...

I dont see a major issue with VdV that people consistantly bash him. He shown he belongs and deserves his chance. plus him there gives more balance to the 3 lines.

 

[Striiker]

the post i was refering to had VL paired with schenn and simmons and Laughton with umberger and PEB. So switching VL and laughton would still have VL on the 4the 4th line...

I dont see a major issue with VdV that people consistantly bash him. He shown he belongs and deserves his chance. plus him there gives more balance to the 3 lines.

He's shown he belongs on the 4th line and he's earned a chance to stay on the 4th line in the NHL. Putting him on the 1st line is just plain ridiculous, the reason he's playing well is because he's getting the easiest minutes possible since Berube is obsessed with the 4th line, if he had to play tougher minutes he'd quickly prove that he's a 4th line player at the NHL level.

It's honestly insane how easily people are fooled into thinking a short burst of production means something. It's the same as when Lecavalier came back and scored a couple of goals and I had to deal with crazy people who suddenly thought he had turned it around and was a valuable player. I spent way too long arguing that it was just an unsustainable flash in the pan and he'd certainly go back to being worse than useless sooner than later... and I was right. This is the same thing, Vandevelde scores a few goals, people get excited, and suddenly he deserves to move up the lineup? Nope. If he can keep playing well on the 4th line then great, but that's where he's going to stay. In an ideal world Vandevelde and Bellemare would have a real hockey player on the line with them so they could at least get a few defensive zone starts instead of stealing offensive zone starts away from the people who actually deserve them.

 

[FLYERSG]

According to Meltzer, Voracek and Giroux have been on the ice together for 1 even strength goal since Christmas break (21 games). Now, I have always been against splitting these 2 up, but I wouldn't mind seeing them split up for a few games just to see if you can light a fire in one of them. Try and get one of them some easier matchups. Thoughts?

 

[dingbathero]

According to Meltzer, Voracek and Giroux have been on the ice together for 1 even strength goal since Christmas break (21 games). Now, I have always been against splitting these 2 up, but I wouldn't mind seeing them split up for a few games just to see if you can light a fire in one of them. Try and get one of them some easier matchups. Thoughts?

iirc - Didn't Voracek and Coots have some time together and perform well?

Simmonds/Raffl- Giroux - Read/Simmonds
Schenn - Coots - Voracek

Given the season and how they have performed together not sure I'd split them up - if that happens, then you have to balance the top 2 lines....

3rd - Umberger - Laughton - Raffl/Read

 

[Curufinwe]

I redid the format in Excel to match the P/60 on the NHL's enhanced stats page. Unfortunately, they only have total points. I put our main centers this season in bold.

ES points per 60 minutes and OZ start %
Voracek ~ 2.31 ~ 63%
Raffl ~ 1.79 ~ 59%
White ~ 1.73 ~ 53%
Giroux ~ 1.61 ~ 55%
Lecavalier ~ 1.53 ~ 62%
Simmonds ~ 1.50 ~ 53%
VandeVelde ~ 1.48 ~ 54%
Schenn ~ 1.40 ~ 61%
Read ~ 1.34 ~ 42%
Couturier ~ 1.30 ~ 41%
Umberger ~ 1.01 ~ 47%
Laughton ~ 0.85 ~ 51%
Bellemare ~ 0.79 ~ 51%
Rinaldo ~ 0.58 ~ 48%

 

[Curufinwe]

ES points per 60 minutes and OZ start %
Voracek ~ 2.30 ~ 61%
White ~ 1.81 ~ 54%
Raffl ~ 1.74 ~ 57%
Giroux ~ 1.62 ~ 54%
Lecavalier ~ 1.57 ~ 59%
Simmonds ~ 1.52 ~ 53%
Couturier ~ 1.46 ~ 40%
Schenn ~ 1.46 ~ 58%
Read ~ 1.29 ~ 41%
VandeVelde ~ 1.26 ~ 51%
Umberger ~ 1.01 ~ 47%
Laughton ~ 0.85 ~ 51%
Bellemare ~ 0.83 ~ 49%
Rinaldo ~ 0.72 ~ 49%

 

[blinds]

White and Vinny so high are up are surprising. White's sample size is pretty small though I guess.

Worth noting that Scott Hartnell had a better ESP/60 than any Flyer a few games ago. Not sure if that's still true cause he was only a little ahead of Voracek, but still telling.