etherialone
dialed in your mom
Me either!
Part of me thinks that Bickell got his money out of the desperate hope that the Hawks would have a big body that could play hockey.
Ville Leino should have been there poster child on that one.
Me either!
Part of me thinks that Bickell got his money out of the desperate hope that the Hawks would have a big body that could play hockey.
Ville Leino should have been there poster child on that one.
Yes and yes. Saad was Chicago's 4th pick that year (2011, #18 McNeil, #26 Danault, #36 Cledening, #43 Saad). Size, skill, skating and even some hockey sense - a really promising young player. I like a lot.
Andrew Shaw was their 5th round pick (#139 overall) then, so that year (2011) Blackhawks drafted really, really well!
Tonellisghost thinks that we don't need to go outside to get "third line" LW - if Richards-Toffoli- line is our third line - but I definitely think otherwise. Clifford doesn't have enough hockeysense, Nolan doesn't have enough skills and is not smart enough and Lewis is an excellent fourth line RW / penaltykiller, but nothing more. I think that Carcillo is our best option there (Carcillo-Richards-Toffoli), but Darryl Sutter obviously thinks otherwise.
I hope that Lombardi makes a trade as soon as possile - Florida's Shawn Matthias is more expensive option and ex-Kings Brian Boyle cheaper and short term option. Both are big guys and can play center or LW and their caphit is bearable. Yes, Brian Boyle. He is a good playoff performer and a lot better player now, than he was when we traded him away.
Clifford, Frattin, Andreoff, Pearson, Forbort, Deslauriers - everybody in Manchester expect Vey or Sabourin - and all 2014 draftpicks, 1st round pick included, are in play.
Do it Dean, get us rid of Kyle Clifford and Matt Frattin, but keep Trevor Lewis!
damacles1156
Registered User
- Feb 5, 2010
- 21,665
- 1,303
Why anyone still likes Brian Boyle, I will never understand.
The guy has 3G in his last 75 regular season games. He has been terrible for the Rangers the last two years.
The guy has 3G in his last 75 regular season games. He has been terrible for the Rangers the last two years.
For what it's worth, Toffoli has 5 GWG in 23 GP this season. I don't know how many of those games were one goal games, but so far this season he seems to be a factor.
Raccoon Jesus
Todd McLellan is an inside agent
Yep, he's a Calder darkhorse imo--I think he'll end this season with 25 goals if he keeps playing. And as an article Gann posted (last week?) pointed out, he's doing fantastic things away from the puck. He's just so freaking smart (Richards-like).
I can't wait to see him get stronger/faster. He's going to be nigh-unstoppable with that shot.
etherialone
dialed in your mom
Sorry Vino but I have never said that (bolded). In fact I said that I see Brown being the LW for Richards/Toffoli come playoff time and list them as our second line in my post.
I can understand why you think we need to go outside or upgrade over Clifford for our 3rd line LW and you may be right about that but I think that Pearson should be given a shot at it before we pull the trigger on any deal.
Putting it in place if Clifford isn't our 3rd line LW then we should be giving Pearson a good look at it again later on before we move assets to get one. I do disagree with your assessment of Nolan too, the guy has solid hockey IQ and some solid skills for a bottom 6er. He has been an effective scorer at every level he has played and he has taken a big step forward this year. Guys like him and King don't grow on trees and he is a solid player for us.
You can't just break up a team into separate components like that. A lot goes into a team like chemistry and team defense.
I read your message carelessly and misunderstood it. Sorry, my fault.
In my mind Brown-Stoll-Williams -line should stay together, just like King-Kopitar-Carter -line. Missing component is a LW "Mister X", who can play with Richards-Toffoli.
Dwight King would be an ideal "Mister X", but unfortunately we have only one Dwight King in our team. I think that Dwight is our team's Unsung Hero and I appreciate him a lot.
Jordan Nolan can score goals now and then and he can skate and hit and fight, but he is a poor puckhandler and can't protect the puck at all, why he is a pretty bad along boards (unlike D. King). And in my mind Nolan is below average passer, because he has a "tunnelvision". Maybye it's because he is so inexperienced. But I gladly admit that Nolan's hockey IQ is higher than Clifford's hockey IQ.
I definitely want to keep Nolan in LA, because I love his size and guts and I think he is a better hockeyplayer than average 4th liners are. As you said "Guys like him and King don't grow on trees and he is a solid player for us."
Tanner Pearson. Sorry, but I think that he is too - how can I say it - small or soft or something like that. Too much babyfat, not enough muscle or mean streak.
etherialone
dialed in your mom
I can to make the point that I was making.
IF we are to add another player so that we can be more confident (some of us) in our chances of beating the Hawks (again, I don't see a need or not just yet) then it would be adding one player. So I broke things down to show how our team man v man stacks up against their team up front. I left out the D and the goalies as there aren't many people who want another D or reasonably don't want to change our netminding (me included).
So my post was to show that we stand up against the Hawks very well as a team and what we truly need is for our coaching staff to develop the best possible way to utilize our assets in a manner that gives us our best chance.
Every team in the history of hockey can always find a way to fit another or better player onto their team but it doesn't always give the best results.
Like you said, there are other things to worry about then how one player stands up against another. There is team chemistry and so on and that is what we have today. Changing that would have to only be done under very special circumstances and only for the right player and at the perfect price.
If anyone can find that player at the right price it will be DL but I for one don't think we truly need to do anything to our top 6 or really even our bottom 6 and our current play bares me out. If we can win games with Lewis playing on our 2nd line then we have to be an exceptionally good team already.
etherialone
dialed in your mom
No worries at all.
I do see the same things in Pearson that I have seen in King Nolan Vey etc and hope that he (TP) gets a chance to prove me right. I can understand your concerns but he hasn't really been given a fair shot just yet.
He went back where he belongs for now. I agree that if TP isn't a kid who we want on our LW just yet then I could see us moving a player like Lewis and a mix of certain prospects/picks to improve that position but it would have to be THE right guy at THE right price imo or there wouldn't be any reason to do it.
We play a balanced team game and that is where our strength is. Anyone we would add or subtract has to be considered not only for how they play but what there part is in our overall team makeup.
If it isn't TP then there are other kids on the farm who might step in and be brilliant on our 3rd line. It would be a bit of a stretch but it could happen.
Not even. Unfortunately, we are out done when it comes to man to man vs chi. Toews and kane are better than kopi and williams - sad but true. And at best, we break even with richards, carter vs sharp and hossa. If you throw in the extras: king and brown vs bickell and saad, I believe were outgunned there too. The only way we beat chi in a 7 game is if we go 2012 on them w brown in beast mode. Otherwise, we need to inject some skill/grit in our top 6 via trade.
deeshamrock
Registered User
I did enjoy your long player by player breakdown and all the thought and effort that went into it.
However, I guess maybe I'm a fan too long and have seen too many playoff series. Speed and skill can be lethal and has and will cost teams playoff games and series. You can't hit what you can't catch. And the Hawks, much as I don't like them much, possess more speed and skill and it showed in the playoffs. We have nobody that is as fast or skilled as Kane, for example, and that shows up vs lots of big, physical teams like the Kings. That speed and skill and goal scoring is winning them games despite Crawford looking like the average goalie he was before the big contract .
In 7 games, head to head, unless the Kings upgrade to add a more skilled LW for that 2nd line, they can't match that.
As for your comment on Lewis, the Kings are winning games despite him being on the the Richards line, not with him and there is a big difference. That line has a hole in it and DL knows it. Reg season wins are not the same as the playoffs. And if that line had a real LW, it would produce more and take pressure off the team. They'd have 3 balanced lines, not 2.
The Kings have too much grit and not enough skill on their wings as a whole and some of those gritty players are redundant.
And don't forget that the Kings thru the first 2 series last playoffs, were outplayed and were lucky to get past the Blues and Sharks. Without an upgrade, that path won't get any easier.
kingsfan28
Its A Kingspiracy !
Whiskeypete
Registered User
Kane....pass. the kid needs a major attitude adjustment. i think the LA locker room could provide that, but the risk and payout is far to high
Moulson is perfect for the LW 'hole' that needs to be filled. i'm afraid of the ransom that BUF will ask for him as a rental. i know we are in 'win now' mode, but I would rather 'push' or 'pass' on that bet and roll into the playoffs with the current roster and prospects. a top prospect + pick (and possible roster player) is to much to surrender in the long run.
i agree and think DB will slot back into the #2LW role regardless of who is centering the line. it won't surprise me to see 23-11-14 and 74-10-77 come playoff time to be honest.
long term i think Clifford is the perfect fit as the #4LW with Vey and Nolan. he did and made some great advances in his skating. the one worse part of his game right now is stick handling, but he isn't getting paid for that. he has some very good hands for a big, physical, kid that will throw. in that role he can and will be able to exploit an opponents 3rd-4th lines when he plays against them. add in Vey's vision, IQ and passing it will be that much better.
it is a rush but the kid didn't **** the bed his previous call ups, but i would like to see Pearson get at least a 10-game minimum call up and skate with Richards and Toffoli. i know he needs work with strength, skating and NHL IQ. i want to see the kid put into semi long-term situation where he will be used where he should be used. skating with Toff (history) and learning MR's game will show DL and DS if the kid will be ready come playoff time. this is the most cost affordable way of addressing the #2 LW this season.
i love the fact they gave it to him. hopefully it handcuffs Bowman at some point with cap problems for a 'one hit' wonder. it wasn't surprising though, most of the BH fans here were salivating over the guy. after the purge of 2010 the team couldn't afford to let go of a prime playoff performer, the fans would have been losing their ****.
Whiskeypete
Registered User
Originally Posted by HolyShot View Post
How would trading toffoli create a hole? He doesn't even play in our top 6 right now. He doesn't fit unless you trade williams or carter which we wouldn't do.
trading Toffoli creates a hole, because after JW's contract exprires after next season. TTT will likely slot into the #2RW spot after Carter. no reason to fill a current hole, only to create one in another season. poor asset management
very true, but this how teams (GMs, coaches and scouts) break down an opponent. TG is doing what he has done for years. break down and compare match ups, so you know how to play them. does this give you a 100% true picture, not by any means but it is an objective way to compare team v. team and player v. player.
as stated earlier i want to see Pearson on a 10-game call up, playing exclusively with MR and Toff. Dean and Darryl were willing to roll the dice and inject some youth into the lineup in 2012, i hope they try this again with Pearson. LA has the depth, experience and defense to help cover up Pearson for 10 games. hell they were more than willing to do it with Muzz, why not Pearson?
i think you underestimate Nolan. yes he isn't the most adept puck handler, but the kid's skating and hands have improved tremendously in the past two years. from 10-feet out i think he has some damn good hands. hey it could be worse, he could have Lewis' hands. his skating has improved greatly to the point he is far more effective on the forecheck than he was when he first got called up. as of now i think Nolan is a solid 4th liner with good upside.
i agree with you to the point that i coach "speed kills". i tell my kids to always keep their feet moving.
i go back to what i've said now for the past few losses to the BH's. the Kings need to tighten up the F- D gap, be forward in their skates and play up ice further. in other words, stop playing on their heels. with the current roster the only way they win is by totally shutting off the ice.
they've let CHI open seams and make transitional passes with speed in gaps, because they've got to much space between the forwards and defense. they are so worried about getting burned, they let CHI push LA's F3 and D back. instead of doing the instinctive thing and 'play back', i think LA needs to push forward to contain. it is the same as a football team sitting back in a zone defense. total fail.
if i had the tape on games go back and look a few seasons ago, when LA kept beating CHI. i bet you see this taking place. last season and to date it has turned the other way.
another way of looking at this scenario is how Seal teams and other military units will handle, counter and overcome an opponent. when they are faced with superior numbers, they will actually work towards and move forward against the opponent. they will become the aggressor and overwhelm them with by essentially attacking the attacker.
i think the Kings need to adopt a similar mindset against the BH's. to attack them rather than passively sit back and try to counter attack them.
How would trading toffoli create a hole? He doesn't even play in our top 6 right now. He doesn't fit unless you trade williams or carter which we wouldn't do.
trading Toffoli creates a hole, because after JW's contract exprires after next season. TTT will likely slot into the #2RW spot after Carter. no reason to fill a current hole, only to create one in another season. poor asset management
very true, but this how teams (GMs, coaches and scouts) break down an opponent. TG is doing what he has done for years. break down and compare match ups, so you know how to play them. does this give you a 100% true picture, not by any means but it is an objective way to compare team v. team and player v. player.
as stated earlier i want to see Pearson on a 10-game call up, playing exclusively with MR and Toff. Dean and Darryl were willing to roll the dice and inject some youth into the lineup in 2012, i hope they try this again with Pearson. LA has the depth, experience and defense to help cover up Pearson for 10 games. hell they were more than willing to do it with Muzz, why not Pearson?
i think you underestimate Nolan. yes he isn't the most adept puck handler, but the kid's skating and hands have improved tremendously in the past two years. from 10-feet out i think he has some damn good hands. hey it could be worse, he could have Lewis' hands. his skating has improved greatly to the point he is far more effective on the forecheck than he was when he first got called up. as of now i think Nolan is a solid 4th liner with good upside.
i agree with you to the point that i coach "speed kills". i tell my kids to always keep their feet moving.
i go back to what i've said now for the past few losses to the BH's. the Kings need to tighten up the F- D gap, be forward in their skates and play up ice further. in other words, stop playing on their heels. with the current roster the only way they win is by totally shutting off the ice.
they've let CHI open seams and make transitional passes with speed in gaps, because they've got to much space between the forwards and defense. they are so worried about getting burned, they let CHI push LA's F3 and D back. instead of doing the instinctive thing and 'play back', i think LA needs to push forward to contain. it is the same as a football team sitting back in a zone defense. total fail.
if i had the tape on games go back and look a few seasons ago, when LA kept beating CHI. i bet you see this taking place. last season and to date it has turned the other way.
another way of looking at this scenario is how Seal teams and other military units will handle, counter and overcome an opponent. when they are faced with superior numbers, they will actually work towards and move forward against the opponent. they will become the aggressor and overwhelm them with by essentially attacking the attacker.
i think the Kings need to adopt a similar mindset against the BH's. to attack them rather than passively sit back and try to counter attack them.
deeshamrock
Registered User
That's a great analogy!
You know when Leino was trying to negotiate with Homer that year, the Flyers offered him 3 mill and I thought Homer was out of his mind for a player who had limited NHL history , avoids contact and folds like a cheap suit when you skate within 3 feet of him. I'm still shocked the Sabres gave him 4.7, has to be one of the worst contracts signed in recent memory.
Same with Bickell, I had an argument with a coworker who wanted the Flyers to sign him and I reminded him of that last week. They should have kept Bolland,.
etherialone
dialed in your mom
Sorry it took awhile to get back to you. Busy time of year and all.
The purpose of my outlining our team V the Hawks was to show that we both have pluses and minuses when it comes to our players and that my feeling is that we need DS and co to step it up a bit when we face them and come up with a better game plan. Same thing goes with the Stars. Adding another player to the team would be a great thing but who and for what have to be done perfectly otherwise we risk losing our current ability to compete at such a high level as we do today.
Certainly speed kills and it would be great to have a speedy big skilled top 6 sniper but at what cost and find him for me. Is it giving up Muzzin Clifford and Pearson and maybe a little more to the Habs? Maybe. Do we find a way to get Stewart out of the Blues? Unlikely but he is another big hard hitting top 6er who can play LW. Do we pay for Ladd? Kane is an over rated one trick pony who wouldn't fit into our style of play. Squidly can score a bunch but he too is a one trick pony and was moved because DL decided he didn't want to see him in a Kings uni ever again (that is a quote) so he is very unlikely.
Every team has a player we could add but the ones the we would really want would cost us rostered players (Likely Voynov or his name is definitely always one that comes up from other teams around the benches) at least and there is where my concern sits.
We could find a way to cover for Muzzin but it would take time and Clifford could be more easily replaced too (I bring up KC because he is on the "it" list for several teams) but if we add in Pearson or Zykov or Williams or Toffi or Vey our depth goes down and we become weaker for a time. That isn't a terrible thing but balancing things out to be a perfect fix has to be THE first consideration.
My point is more designed to point out that in order to get we will have to give and give something up something considerable to get anything of any real impact and I am not certain we need to do that or at least not so much as we need to find a game plan that is different than our normal one when we face the Hawks and the Stars. The rest of the entire NHL I wouldn't change a thing against.
As for Lewis I completely agree that we are winning in spite of him and that is what I was saying but I must not have made the point well enough. You quoted everything but the most important word in that statement, the word "IF" and that is where the confusion comes from I am certain.
If we can win with Lewis in the line up anywhere but the fourth line as much and as often as we do then we must be doing some things right is the gist of what I was saying. I would much rather see us ice Sabourin or Des or Andy or really several other players then TL as a scoring forward. It just isn't what the guy can do.
As to your statement about our not having anyone like Kane on our team (I agree completely) I will use that to prove my point. If we have a game plan designed to deal with a speed/skill team like the Stars and the Hawks and adjust our line up to better compete against them I think that if we include our depth (Pearson etc) or our RW skillset then we should be able to beat the Hawks.
You can play against what you can't catch and there are several ways to do that. We shouldn't be having the trouble we do with the Hawks and I am not convinced that adding our own best possible sniper is the best solution to the problem.
Look at how other teams try to beat us. Look at the Blues, they have added and added and changed everything to try and beat us and they just can't. I see it as how we match up against them from a game plan/coaching match up more than player to player for the most part.
The point is that we have a great team and exceptional depth and we have a good coaching staff. We have the horses to beat the Hawks IF we play our game and use our balance against them. I believe to be true today.
If I were adding anyone to our forward group i would be looking for a shutdown D first forward with good size and average scoring skills. I am not talking about King or Stoll or Vey or anyone like that. I am talking about a Steve Kasper type or maybe even a Marchand. I want a guy who can anchor a line that instills fear into the speed teams and is more of a highly skilled Dman playing up front that another sniper.
We have proven we can score goals against anyone, we need to be able to shut the Hawks down to beat them. That is what the teams that have beaten over the past two seasons have done.
Herby
Now I can die in peace
I do agree the Kings could use a true shut down center, the only one they have is Kopitar, but he also happens to be the Kings best offensive player. Stoll is average defensively, he is better as a PK'er than an ES defender, Richards just struggles to much against bigger centers, which is a problem in a division that features Getzlaf, Thornton, Kesler and Hanzal.
But right now the Kings are pretty locked in at C with 16 million in salary committed to the position through next season.
But right now the Kings are pretty locked in at C with 16 million in salary committed to the position through next season.
etherialone
dialed in your mom
I agree but we could do the same thing with a shut down W too. I mean if we iced a line with Stoll and Toffi that had a shut down hard hitting LW it could tip the balance in our favor depending on the player.
I guess what I see is that while it is always nice to find a good sniper and that we could arguably use on our 2nd line (though I see Brown being in that position come the playoffs) I think we have allot if not all of what we need in that department. We became a great team based firstly on our ability to shut down our opponents. To me that is what we have to be able to do against the Hawks first. After that we can worry about out scoring them.
Herby
Now I can die in peace
TG,
The problem is if you move Brown off the line with Williams and Stoll and replace him with the usual garbage (Clifford or Lewis) the Kings suddenly don't have three offensive lines any more, and that is what it's going to take to beat Chicago.
King - Kopitar - Carter and Brown-Stoll-Williams are ok in their current roles, once again the huge problem is the Kings are killing Richards and TT by putting those garbage players on their LW.
Lewis and Clifford are 4th line players and nothing more, when you start putting them up on the 2nd line you don't have a championship caliber team.
The problem is if you move Brown off the line with Williams and Stoll and replace him with the usual garbage (Clifford or Lewis) the Kings suddenly don't have three offensive lines any more, and that is what it's going to take to beat Chicago.
King - Kopitar - Carter and Brown-Stoll-Williams are ok in their current roles, once again the huge problem is the Kings are killing Richards and TT by putting those garbage players on their LW.
Lewis and Clifford are 4th line players and nothing more, when you start putting them up on the 2nd line you don't have a championship caliber team.
etherialone
dialed in your mom
I agree but DB isn't doing anywhere near as well on Stolls line so we will likely be looking for another answer and move him (db) back to the 2nd line LW.
So if Clifford isn't the answer by now on our 3rd line LW we can much more easily find one of them then we can a LW sniper who is responsible in ever zone and can throw his weight around to boot.
That is why I would much more advocate our getting someone who can play as our 3rd line LW either from within (which I see as being possible) or without. To me that and possibly on the blueline are the only things I would touch at least today.
Herby
Now I can die in peace
The Kings don't need a lw who throws his body around or is even great in the D zone. They need someone who can play with Richards and TT and contribute offensively.
etherialone
dialed in your mom
So your saying that the reason we lose to the Hawks is because we can't outscore them then, right? (just want to make sure I get where your coming from).
A shut down center or winger lol. Really. Our biggest concern is offensive production, we need someone who's offensively talented and can shoot and make plays too for Richards and Toffoli.
