Europa League 2017/2018

[Live in the Now]

They will never ever have to pay all that debt off anyway. The only way things actually go south for them is if the entire footballing system implodes. They also have foreign backing from a Chinese guy and an Israeli guy who both have TONS of money.

 

[Albatros]

What I'm saying is that dealing with it requires significant sacrifices that their competition don't have to do, it's a self-inflicted handicap that they'll be playing with in the foreseeable future. Seriously challenging Real Madrid or Barcelona that way is not realistic, Sevilla and Valencia maybe.

 

[Albatros]

They will never ever have to pay all that debt off anyway. The only way things actually go south for them is if the entire footballing system implodes. They also have foreign backing from a Chinese guy and an Israeli guy who both have TONS of money.

The Chinese are in financial trouble of their own and already sold their share to the Israelis. And most of Atlético's debt is not to their owners, but to 3rd parties that really do want their money back. Even the tax authorities are having a hard time justifying why one club has heavy debts while its competition has paid taxes to the last cent.

 

[les Habs]

What I'm saying is that dealing with it requires significant sacrifices that their competition don't have to do, it's a self-inflicted handicap that they'll be playing with in the foreseeable future. Seriously challenging Real Madrid or Barcelona that way is not realistic, Sevilla and Valencia maybe.

Barça and Madrid have significant debt of their own. A lot of clubs do depending on how you look at it. The problem for Atleti won't be their debt so much as their inability to match the revenue of Barça and Madrid. Of course a whole host of other issues could crop up like potentially having to replace Simeone for example, but their debt isn't as big an issue as you seem to think it is unless of course you feel the same about how many other clubs.

 

[Albatros]

Of course also other clubs have taken loans to finance stadium renovations and alike, but it is a completely different matter when a profitable club takes manageable loans compared to Atlético simply leaving its bills unpaid for years and as a result being deep in red every season.

 

[les Habs]

Of course also other clubs have taken loans to finance stadium renovations and alike, but it is a completely different matter when a profitable club takes manageable loans compared to Atlético simply leaving its bills unpaid for years and as a result being deep in red every season.

Deep in red every season? They announced a profit after 2016-17. Again, so you're saying their debt is managed then?

 

[Albatros]

If restructuring loans so that they can potentially pay them back at all counts as managing, making promises for the future anyone can do but it is the delivery that ultimately counts.

 

[les Habs]

If restructuring loans so that they can potentially pay them back at all counts as managing, making promises for the future anyone can do but it is the delivery that ultimately counts.

 

[Albatros]

They took a loan to finance the renovation of a rotten municipal athletic field in the periphery so that they could sell their old stadium on a valuable piece of land in the city, counting on making a nice profit. What happened was that they haven't got rid of their old stadium to this day, and were facing payment rates of 40 million a year. Such adventures have little to do with serious management.

 

[les Habs]

They took a loan to finance the renovation of a rotten municipal athletic field in the periphery so that they could sell their old stadium on a valuable piece of land in the city, counting on making a nice profit. What happened was that they haven't got rid of their old stadium to this day, and were facing payment rates of 40 million a year. Such adventures have little to do with serious management.

Not the point we were discussing, but hey have at it.

 

[Albatros]

We were discussing your claim about their future looking bright, and finances are a key part of any organization's future.

 

[les Habs]

We were discussing your claim about their future looking bright, and finances are a key part of any organization's future.

Yeah, and you've shown nothing to suggest that they don't have their debt managed, though I'm not sure you actually understand the term. Atleti's debt situation is nothing new and yet here they are. Additionally matchday revenue is up considerably, even three times that of last season on some match days.

 

[Albatros]

Again, they're currently having to restructure their loans because they can not pay back according to the plan they had agreed to only a few years ago. That's not good management. And just because they've been operating terribly badly and even outright illegally since years doesn't mean that it is sustainable also in the future.

 

[les Habs]

Again, they're currently having to restructure their loans because they can not pay back according to the plan they had agreed to only a few years ago. That's not good management. And just because they've been operating terribly badly and even outright illegally since years doesn't mean that it is sustainable also in the future.

Restructuring their loans is managing their debt. Again, you don't understand the meaning here. Your use of "good managment" confirms this.

And I don't know what you mean by "illegally". I assume you're referencing something to do with taxes. They made a significant tax payment in the last few years.

And just because they may have had some financial difficulties doesn't mean they can't be sustainable going forward.

 

[Albatros]

I'm sorry, but if you can not even spell management you should not try to lecture about its meaning. Not being able to pay back loans according to the plan is not good management no matter how you twist and turn it.

Not paying taxes is indeed illegal, but even more importantly the takeover by Atlético's current owners was found fraudulent in court and they only got away with it because they managed to extend the court case until the statute of limitations had passed.

With fraudsters in charge there's little reason to believe that their operations will miraculously become sustainable in the future when they have not been until now.

 

[maclean]

I will never pretend to have insight into the inner workings of late capitalism football giants, but blasting spelling in rapidly typed message board debates is a poor argument any day of the week

 

[les Habs]

I'm sorry, but if you can not even spell management you should not try to lecture about its meaning. Not being able to pay back loans according to the plan is not good management no matter how you twist and turn it.
Not paying taxes is indeed illegal, but even more importantly the takeover by Atlético's current owners was found fraudulent in court and they only got away with it because they managed to extend the court case until the statute of limitations had passed.
With fraudsters in charge there's little reason to believe that their operations will miraculously become sustainable in the future when they have not been until now.

Really? A typo? If you look up further didn't ask my question correctly because I used "is" instead of "isn't". Considering your use of past and present tense in of your lines on top of another choice of vocabulary I could have gone down that road earlier, but I'll let that be your game.

Pray tell what twisted and turned? They restructured the debt to make it easier to pay it back and have paid back quite a bit in recent years including a large sum of taxes.
Atleti have multiple groups of owners for the record.

The fact of the matter is they've made significant progress in paying down debt and the club are in a better position now than they were right before Simeone took charge of the team. They also have notable growth in revenue streams since then as well not to mention the footballing aspect of things which you've conveniently left out.

 

[Albatros]

They restructured the debt to make it easier to pay it back and have paid back quite a bit in recent years including a large sum of taxes.

Last years their debt load has kept increasing further rather than decreased thanks to their stadium adventures, and paying some of their taxes is not a voluntary contribution.

Atleti have multiple groups of owners for the record.

Gil and Cerezo still hold more than a half of the shares and thus control the club, selling a minority stake to China and Israel doesn't make their activity any less fraudulent.

The fact of the matter is they've made significant progress in paying down debt and the club are in a better position now than they were right before Simeone took charge of the team. They also have notable growth in revenue streams since then as well not to mention the footballing aspect of things which you've conveniently left out.

Their debt has went up from 514 million in 2011 as Simeone started to 585 million today. What they are doing is going all in on growth and hoping that it will somehow offset the numbers in red at some point. Growth that relies on avoiding expensive troubles like their stadium debacle or dropping out of the Champions League early.

 

[les Habs]

Last years their debt load has kept increasing further rather than decreased thanks to their stadium adventures, and paying some of their taxes is not a voluntary contribution.

Yeah, and the stadium is the added debt, not investing in the squad. I wasn't lumping the stadium in.

Yet the taxes were still back taxes in part that they owed.

Gil and Cerezo still hold more than a half of the shares and thus control the club, selling a minority stake to China and Israel doesn't make their activity any less fraudulent.

Hence multiple owners. And neither Gil nor Cerezo hold more than half of the shares. Gil holds half the shares and Cerezo 16% of the shares.

Their debt has went up from 514 million in 2011 as Simeone started to 585 million today. What they are doing is going all in on growth and hoping that it will somehow offset the numbers in red at some point. Growth that relies on avoiding expensive troubles like their stadium debacle or dropping out of the Champions League early.

Again, because of the stadium, which is part of the growth strategy. 514 million in debt before you build a stadium and then 585 million in debt after should be a clear sign they reduced the debt in the interim unless you actually think the Wanda only cost 71 million. Their revenue was already climbing before the stadium too. Of course things could go wrong and they could get into trouble, but that doesn't look the case at the moment. As I've already said, they were in bad shape before 2011 and look at what they've accomplished since then.

 

[Albatros]

Gil and Cerezo are one team, they are equally responsible for the crimes together. Cerezo had worked as the elder Gil's assistant already since the 1980s.

 

[les Habs]

I know about Gil and Cerezo, but their shares are as I posted.

 

[Albatros]

Correct, but that ~65 % gives them the power to keep calling the shots as before. The best hope the club has is that the Israelis will make the two clowns an offer that they can't refuse at some point.

 

[Paulie Gualtieri]

I personally believe that Atletico will really struggle without Griezmann. He is involved in so many goals on a low scoring team.

 

[Cassano]

I personally believe that Atletico will really struggle without Griezmann. He is involved in so many goals on a low scoring team.

He is pretty much the perfect counter-attacking striker as well.

 

[maclean]

UEFA has lifted the alcohol ban at CL and EL games! Hooray! (*England still SOL btw)