ESPN Article: Top 10 Centers in the NHL, as Ranked by Players and Team Officials

[Crow]

There’s this cool trick you can do. If you divide the total points by the number of games you can get the average number of points someone scores in a game. You can use to this number to compare with other players. It helps to standardize results and remove some variance that players might not have control over!

There’s some other cool stuff you can do with math as well, let me know if you want to know anything else

What is the logic behind giving a player credit for not playing games and therefore not scoring any points in those games? Seems prevalent here. Makes no sense to me. If you can’t stay healthy enough to score points, you don’t get to be thought of more highly than someone who can.

 

[Isaac Nootin]

Good list.

I'd probably flip Drai and Crosby.

 

[GordonGraham]

Those same player rate Carey Price #1 goalie year after year when he had trouble cracking the top 30 in GAA or SP for a few seasons in a row, they are terrible at this

 

[The90]

What is the logic behind giving a player credit for not playing games and therefore not scoring any points in those games? Seems prevalent here. Makes no sense to me. If you can’t stay healthy enough to score points, you don’t get to be thought of more highly than someone who can.

Interesting that 318 games isn’t a big enough sample size.

 

[Nihiliste]

What is the logic behind giving a player credit for not playing games and therefore not scoring any points in those games? Seems prevalent here. Makes no sense to me. If you can’t stay healthy enough to score points, you don’t get to be thought of more highly than someone who can.

not only that, people seem to imply that PP points are worth less than 5v5 points on a regular basis. maybe someone should have told Gretzky and Lemieux that

 

[nhlfan9191]

Those same player rate Carey Price #1 goalie year after year when he had trouble cracking the top 30 in GAA or SP for a few seasons in a row, they are terrible at this

Yeah, it’s almost like you’re the one who has to shoot the puck at him in a game situation. What do they know? You have your advanced stats website.

 

[SFKingshomer]

Needs more Kopitar

 

[Not My Tempo]

What is the logic behind giving a player credit for not playing games and therefore not scoring any points in those games? Seems prevalent here. Makes no sense to me. If you can’t stay healthy enough to score points, you don’t get to be thought of more highly than someone who can.

I guess it depends on the purpose of your evaluation. Is it retrospective or prospective? Are you trying to figure out which player has provided the most value or the one which is “the best”.

 

[Voight]

Id love to know who voted for Pettersson over Schiefele in the honorable mentions. Pettersson has never had a point per game season and Scheifele has been a ppg player for the last 4 seasons. He may have the potential to be a better player in the future but he is not a better player right now.

Advanced stats guys got offended when Schief called it all hogwash.

 

[Isaac Nootin]

Those same player rate Carey Price #1 goalie year after year when he had trouble cracking the top 30 in GAA or SP for a few seasons in a row, they are terrible at this

Good point, except it wasn't just players, as per the article. Not sure if you bothered to read. Probably not.

 

[member 298589]

Currently Better: MacKinnon vs Matthews?

Just a reminder that it's not the Toronto Maple Leafs' or their fans' fault that you are not satisfied simply being a fan of your own team. There's room on the bandwagon when you get older and mellow in the barrel enough.

 

[IslesBro715]

who was 6-10?

 

[McFlash97]

It's

McDavid
Draisaitl
Mackinnon
Barkov


The rest

 

[Little Psycho]

What's 5-10?

 

[slobbergob]

It's not just that one players relative relative stats compares to one player on a team, it's that they compare a player to an entire team as a whole and the specific players role on that team. There are things like quality of wingers and offensive D, etc. to worry about here but 1st line centers go up against the best on every team. (perhaps we should be looking at xGF% as a whole for straight 2 way play I guess)

What if your on a team with a crap D that gives up a ton of shots/scoring chances? Regular /60 metrics are not going to look good at all whatever you do as a center to try and mitigate them. When you look at REL numbers in concert with /60 numbers, and then compare the player to other players in identical roles around the league (1st line centers QoC are not going to be all that different), you'll get as close a comparison as is possible IMO.

Just going straight /60 biases things so badly towards players on good teams, it's hard to take them seriously on their own. However, if you your team averages far fewer shots and scoring chances against the moment you step on the ice, I think it should be acknowledged and taken into account.

I've already been told here that takeaways and blocked shots shouldn't be used when looking at defensive play. At least give me REL stats here.

I agree with all of the bolded. I only disagree with the idea that you can take Mackinnon's rel stats and Matthew's rel stats, order them, and then draw any kind of useful information from them. Almost all of the context of the stat is about how much "better" or "worse" a player is than his teammates, so I feel like the number loses meaning when Matthews isn't compared to the Avs team and Mackinnon isn't compared to the Leafs if that makes sense.

I think rel stats probably have their best usage when looking at good players on bad teams. Gives you a bit of context into why their raw stats might seem so bad.

As to the argument of whether Mackinnon or Matthews is better defensively, I feel like neither is all the great at traditional, in zone defense. What makes them good defensively is their ability to transition back to offense quickly and efficiently, which is the most important part of defense. Mack does it through his skating and brute force, Matthews through takeaways and and an active stick.

 

[SG1990]

I didnt know game scores were counted by how many assists each team gets.
And nobody claimed Mackinnon was terrible. Matthews has every right to be placed ahead of him

Nah Even as fan of Toronto and Matthews and Marner having great seasons I wouldn’t put him above Mac.. especially when you factor in playoffs as well.

 

[Zybalto]

I agree with all of the bolded. I only disagree with the idea that you can take Mackinnon's rel stats and Matthew's rel stats, order them, and then draw any kind of useful information from them. Almost all of the context of the stat is about how much "better" or "worse" a player is than his teammates, so I feel like the number loses meaning when Matthews isn't compared to the Avs team and Mackinnon isn't compared to the Leafs if that makes sense.

I think rel stats probably have their best usage when looking at good players on bad teams. Gives you a bit of context into why their raw stats might seem so bad.

As to the argument of whether Mackinnon or Matthews is better defensively, I feel like neither is all the great at traditional, in zone defense. What makes them good defensively is their ability to transition back to offense quickly and efficiently, which is the most important part of defense. Mack does it through his skating and brute force, Matthews through takeaways and and an active stick.

Totally agree on the REL usage point and when it comes to number 1 centers, they are so important to teams that if you have an elite center, the team generally tends to do well.

Not gonna look at it now but I wonder how poor Eichel looks in Buffalo this year though.

...and not forgetting about the third guy on my list, Matthews and Mackinnon both look to have a defensive edge over Barkov so I'm really not sure how anyone could justify having Barkov over either of them.

I think Barkov is a 6-10 1st line center in the league but not in a top 5 conversation as he just doesn't have the offensive chops of the guys near the top. I'd have Bergeron above him based on their comparable body of work the last couple years IMO.

 

[Namikaze Minato]

6-10 was

Eichel
Bergeron
Barkov
Point
Barzal

HM were

Orielly, Pettersson, Shiefele and Kopitar.

 

[Namikaze Minato]

Elias Pettersson. Now there's a name I haven't heard at all this season surprisingly

Yeah, hes been hurt for a long period of time this season and wasnt exactly having a fantastic start before that either.

 

[FLpanthers16]

Totally agree on the REL usage point and when it comes to number 1 centers, they are so important to teams that if you have an elite center, the team generally tends to do well.

Not gonna look at it now but I wonder how poor Eichel looks in Buffalo this year though.

...and not forgetting about the third guy on my list, Matthews and Mackinnon both look to have a defensive edge over Barkov so I'm really not sure how anyone could justify having Barkov over either of them.

I think Barkov is a 6-10 1st line center in the league but not in a top 5 conversation as he just doesn't have the offensive chops of the guys near the top. I'd have Bergeron above him based on their comparable body of work the last couple years IMO.

Matthews and Mack better defensively than Barkov kidding right? And one has a 96 point season so please tell me how hes not up there offensively.

 

[SG1990]

I'll take Scheifele way before Eichel

This is what I was thinking as well lol especially this year

 

[Regal]

What is the logic behind giving a player credit for not playing games and therefore not scoring any points in those games? Seems prevalent here. Makes no sense to me. If you can’t stay healthy enough to score points, you don’t get to be thought of more highly than someone who can.

What about a pandemic cutting the season short when you've played every game? Criticizing Matthews for a career high 80 points when he had that in 70 games before the season was halted is pretty ridiculous. Especially when it's in comparison to Barkov, who Matthews outscored heavily last year anyway and has only topped 80 points once himself.

 

[Crow]

Interesting that 318 games isn’t a big enough sample size.

It is. 318/368 x 331 points is an accurate number to describe his actual production. So he is good for about 75 points each season. Which is impressive considering his rookie year is included. There is just no reason to overstate it.

 

[Regal]

Advanced stats guys got offended when Schief called it all hogwash.

Probably doesn't want to face the reality of how much he gives up defensively.

 

[Crow]

What about a pandemic cutting the season short when you've played every game? Criticizing Matthews for a career high 80 points when he had that in 70 games before the season was halted is pretty ridiculous. Especially when it's in comparison to Barkov, who Matthews outscored heavily last year anyway and has only topped 80 points once himself.

That’s a valid point under these circumstances but not really what I was questioning. Other people might be. I’m not even pointing at Auston specifically. My point is more that PPG isn’t the only consideration and should take a back seat to actual production. Auston has plenty of both if he can stay healthy, which he has the last two years including this one