Erik Karlsson (Part 6)

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PattyLafontaine

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You are assuming that this will have a short merciless ending. This will drag out until either he retires or the Sharks release him. Couple that with all the other albatross contracts and The Sharks are a 7-10 year project.
 

FunkyPhin

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Feb 2, 2011
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Just throwing it out there but it could just be EK65's OTHER groin. It might also simply be a typical groin strain and not an adductor injury like before. I know this place is quick to jump straight to amputation but it's also possible he's just out a few games and then comes back fine. A groin injury definitely would explain his lack of burst recently though.

I mean he hasn't really looked "fine" up to this point in the season either. It probably is a minor thing, but these injuries in the same area are really starting to add up for him. He doesn't seem to have recovered from the first one either.
 

Doctor Soraluce

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I mean he hasn't really looked "fine" up to this point in the season either. It probably is a minor thing, but these injuries in the same area are really starting to add up for him. He doesn't seem to have recovered from the first one either.
His skating stride definitely has looked fine. Light years from when he was injured and frankly less choppy than last season. Just not much of his typical explosive first step that he still showed last season. We don't know it's the same area. Like I said could be the other groin. Guys not skating for as long as they have are bound to have groin soreness or worse. Not saying it couldn't be career threatening but they only listed him day to day and BB at least thinks he's playing tomorrow. I know after my long layoffs from other surgeries I sometimes had a little soreness in the groin after the first couple skates but it didn't last more than a night each time and quickly went away. We'll see what happens. Let's not burn down the house yet because we found one spider. :laugh:
 

Doctor Soraluce

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But how many of those same players havent also had surgery to a repair a severed achilles?
That's an interesting point. Was the adductor tear on the same leg as the Achilles tear? If not you can't really correlate them. Wasn't the Achilles done by someone kicking him with a skate? So not a weakness in the tendon. It's a tough sport and EK65 isn't the biggest guy. Achilles tears are pretty successfully repaired in the NFL and EK65s first season in SJ prior to the injury he was plenty explosive with his skating. I'm not sure if you can pin these other issues on that at this point. Maybe, but I don't think we'll really ever know for sure.
 

OrrNumber4

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We can't count on Karlsson to be honest. He's just said that he had a nagging injury yet a few weeks ago he said he's perfectly healthy. Maybe he aggravated an old injury, maybe he didn't.
 
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Pinkfloyd

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Well you are often wrong but never in doubt. I was ecstatic when I heard they signed Erik Karlsson. I saw the Norrises and the carefully marketed performance numbers and I assumed he was the best D in the league. But I never saw him play, just bought the hype. I'll bet it is the same for most of you. Of course it gave me pause that Debbie Dowdy and Burns also won Norrises after Karlsson's run. I figured that was just affirmative action for Canadian hockey players but it really provided informative calibration for what a Norris is worth. (To be fair, that was Burns' best season as a Shark.) No, I expected Karlsson to be a team savior when he got here and was appalled pretty fast actually watching him play; not his low initial point numbers and lack of goals - just watching him. There were all the excuses and rationalizations imaginable but the fact is, he just wasn't very good. There was a few week period where he didn't really contribute much except for an occasional nice pass and racking up the perfunctory secondary assists but he at least didn't stink up the barn as bad and Randy started calling him the best player in the league, which some of you evidently took seriously. By the end of that season it was clear that SJ had been fooled with pig in a poke (surprising because DW has beaucoup contacts in Ottawa) and all the lipstick in the world was not going to make it attractive. It was a worthwhile effort that had failed. No shame at all until they actually signed him for 8 more frikken years at one of the largest contracts in league history. At that point they had all the info they could ever need to know better and they did it anyway.

I've looked through numerous threads that show absolutely nothing of you being ecstatic about Karlsson's acquisition so you'll forgive me if I don't give you the benefit of the doubt because you've done and said nothing to earn such a thing. All I've ever seen from you in any thread where Karlsson's name comes up is disdain and I'm a very active poster and have been for many years. You didn't say a word in any of the Karlsson trade threads prior to the season he started with us but hey maybe it's somewhere else. I'd be happy for you to show me anything that gives you a shred of credibility. I find it very hard to believe that you will provide any such thing. You have always had an agenda as far as I'm concerned and that's never changed. It doesn't matter much anyway because nothing is going to be done in this regard unless Karlsson asks out or DW gets canned.
 

jarr92

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I still think about Karlsson playing the All-Star game while clearly injured.. The Sharks have done a poor job handling his injury IMO.
 
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Cas

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My concern is that this is going to turn out like acquiring Ken Griffey Jr. turned out for the Reds - Karlsson's most valuable skills will decline to being merely above-average, those areas of his game that were weaknesses will become horrific, and he'll have difficulty staying healthy but will never be so hurt as to trigger an escape route for his contract (insurance and/or LTIR), just sort of staying around as a mediocre player whom the team is forced to play because of his contract and stature.
 
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PattyLafontaine

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My concern is that this is going to turn out like acquiring Ken Griffey Jr. turned out for the Reds - Karlsson's most valuable skills will decline to being merely above-average, those areas of his game that were weaknesses will become horrific, and he'll have difficulty staying healthy but will never be so hurt as to trigger an escape route for his contract (insurance and/or LTIR), just sort of staying around as a mediocre player whom the team is forced to play because of his contract and stature.

This has already started to happen. The bigger question is how the Sharks management failed to do proper due diligence on Karlsson's health.

Anyone with decent medical knowledge could have seen the potential for long term issues after Karlsson's Achilles injury.
 

Alwalys

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This has already started to happen. The bigger question is how the Sharks management failed to do proper due diligence on Karlsson's health.

Anyone with decent medical knowledge could have seen the potential for long term issues after Karlsson's Achilles injury.

Eh? Dude literally scored 20 goals, went PPG and won the Norris in 3 separate seasons after the achilles.
 

Doctor Soraluce

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This has already started to happen. The bigger question is how the Sharks management failed to do proper due diligence on Karlsson's health.

Anyone with decent medical knowledge could have seen the potential for long term issues after Karlsson's Achilles injury.
Yeah, they probably didn't have any doctors look into EK65s history or anything prior to giving him the biggest contract for a defenseman ever. I mean why would you? Have you ever used him on xBox? Dude's gotta be great. :sarcasm:
 

Doctor Soraluce

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I still think about Karlsson playing the All-Star game while clearly injured.. The Sharks have done a poor job handling his injury IMO.
That was prior to the Boston game right? I think at that point they just thought it was a groin pull. That's what it seems like at first and most Docs just want you to rest it and do some rehab. It's not until it doesn't respond to rest and rehab do they move to considering it an adductor injury. My local Doc just kept telling me it was a groin strain for 4 months until I finally convinced them to refer me out to someone who actually deals with that type of injury.
 
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Dicdonya

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Except that's not true at all. Plenty of players have had that surgery to repair that injury and have come back without issue. Lot's of cornerbacks, WR, running backs.. and running and cutting in football is more jarring on your groin. More guys have the surgery in football than hockey. Nabby had it on both sides and came back to have some of his best seasons. There are a few who may never recover 100% but that isn't the norm. Speaking from my personal experience with the exact same injury and surgery, had it at around 40 years old and going on a decade without even a twinge of a recurrence while playing 3 to 4 times a week. It may depend on the individual as well. Some people are more naturally flexible and may have better outcomes. I was always someone who didn't really need to stretch all that much and could go full speed so maybe that was a factor. EK65 seems to be a guy who is also naturally flexible. Cheechoo? Not so much...:laugh:

reread my post you clearly misunderstood it.

I never said you can’t come back, I just said unlike bone, muscle and ligaments are much easier to re injure once they’ve torn. They can also be permanently damaged.

I get that you want to be positive about Karlsson for whatever reason, and I know you love DW, but it’s ok to admit so far his signing has been a complete failure, and this injury news is potentially just icing on the cake.
 

Doctor Soraluce

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reread my post you clearly misunderstood it.

I never said you can’t come back, I just said unlike bone, muscle and ligaments are much easier to re injure once they’ve torn. They can also be permanently damaged.

I get that you want to be positive about Karlsson for whatever reason, and I know you love DW, but it’s ok to admit so far his signing has been a complete failure, and this injury news is potentially just icing on the cake.
It's not a matter of loving DW. It's the change for changes sake aspect where you and I differ. Show me a better GM that the Sharks can hire and I might be on board. That hasn't happened yet. At this point I'm in it with him for his son's draft picks and the hope that the Dentist has another deal or 2 before he gets kicked to the retirement home that will fix this shit show of a roster.

As far as thinking positive about Ek65... I try to do that about all the players. It's a far better way to go thru life IMO (Except Vlasic, he's f***ing cooked :laugh:). EK65's missed one game and the coach thinks he'll be ready to play the next one. I am positive that EK65 hasn't looked like he needs to or even as good production wise as he did last season. But the way this board jumps from worst case scenario to worst case scenario is truly breathtaking when it comes to injuries (about everything really). Until they say he's out and needs another surgery on the same groin that already got repaired I'm going to resist assuming his career is over. As far as the signing being a failure? Yeah no shit. Of course "so far" it's been a failure. Water is also wet, sky is blue. None of that changes the fact that it was the right signing at the time even if the price was too high. Sure in hind sight is way too high but in that moment it was maybe only 1 or 2 million max too high. I at least understand the thinking behind not letting him go. Is that the final statement written about it though? 2 seasons into an 8 year contract? No. As with all this other stuff, you don't know the ending this early in the process. Maybe it will be. But none of us know. I do know how highly competitive people think and I have trouble believing that EK65 wants the last 2 seasons to be his Sharks legacy. I know he's only 30 years old and this season is only 14 games old for the Sharks so has time to get his act together. Will he for certain? I dunno. None of us do. But I prefer to think that he's working toward proving any all naysayers wrong. I also know the bitching about him on this board over that first month of the season after they traded for him was unrelenting until he found his bearing and unloaded one of if not the best 20 game stretches of hockey by a Sharks defenseman I've ever seen. So yeah I'm hoping for something much closer to that. We'll see what we end up with.
 
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OrrNumber4

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Soft tissue injuries tend to be dicey.

Really feels like the Sharks are having a long run of the worst outcomes coming true. What were the odds that they'd lose the third overall pick, that Karlsson would regress like this, that Vlasic and Jones would bomb, etc.? Seems like every nice surprise (Knyzhov, Goodrow trade) is met with three setbacks.
 

PattyLafontaine

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Yeah, they probably didn't have any doctors look into EK65s history or anything prior to giving him the biggest contract for a defenseman ever. I mean why would you? Have you ever used him on xBox? Dude's gotta be great. :sarcasm:


That’s the problem. Someone clearly ignored multiple aspects of his medical history as well as his long term outlook because there’s no way he should been offered the 7 year deal for 11.5 million.


And before you say no one could have known my posting history indicates otherwise. I strongly intimated that the long term contract was a disaster in making and Wilson was making a colossal mistake.
 

Doctor Soraluce

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That’s the problem. Someone clearly ignored multiple aspects of his medical history as well as his long term outlook because there’s no way he should been offered the 7 year deal for 11.5 million.


And before you say no one could have known my posting history indicates otherwise. I strongly intimated that the long term contract was a disaster in making and Wilson was making a colossal mistake.
Except you were just guessing off nothing more than stuff you read. A broken clock is right twice a day. ;) Actual doctors looked at everything and with that information the Sharks thought it was worth the risk. It doesn't mean it doesn't suck it turned out this way but you weren't right thru some unique insight and analysis, you were right thru sheer luck.
 

Herschel

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Except you were just guessing off nothing more than stuff you read. A broken clock is right twice a day. ;) Actual doctors looked at everything and with that information the Sharks thought it was worth the risk. It doesn't mean it doesn't suck it turned out this way but you weren't right thru some unique insight and analysis, you were right thru sheer luck.

I would be curious about what NHL GMs consider when looking at a long-term deal for a player (like EK65) with potential injury issues or more specifically do they factor in the possibility of LTIR.
 
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tealzamboni

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I would be curious about what NHL GMs consider when looking at a long-term deal for a player (like EK65) with potential injury issues or more specifically do they factor in the possibility of LTIR.

On a related note, I wonder how they calculate the resources to preserve their investment and lower the risk of injury.

I guess the football analogy is that a franchise QB's injury risk can be lowered by investing in pass protection, designing an offense that mitigates the worrisome injuries, having a good training staff, seeing if the QB has a good private trainer, or sometimes even maintaining a good player surface or having good equipment management.

But many of those mitigating factors cost money, so I wonder if the maintenance cost is rolled into these large contracts (like a home price increase if interest falls low). If so, I wonder what metrics they use to estimate injuries and their impact on production/wins. Maybe that's a department the Sharks could get better in.

In terms of local teams, the 49ers are notorious for signing players with injury histories and keep cycling through them. The A's used to be pretty lazy about injuries, but eventually shaped up. I think DW is known to have good relations with Bay Area teams. Maybe he can get a fresh perspective if the FIRE DW revolution doesn't happen.
 
Mar 1, 2002
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Did you read the article? Most of it was just accusations. Kind of a hit piece because he worked on Bonds and Bonds was in trouble with Balco. A hit piece to generate clicks and controversy. Yeah the restraining order thing is interesting... accusations, no proof. Just 2 dudes pissed at each other. You've never wanted to choke a co-worker? :laugh:

As far as being disciplined... he was sanctioned not suspended as far as I remember. Meaning he got a note in his permanent record. :sarcasm: Being disciplined is like getting a speeding ticket I would guess. I also know people were pissed when he went out on his own and got his own facility. None of this has anything to do with the main premise I was arguing against. He's very good at his job which is to diagnose and fix people thru surgery. Pro athletes come from all over the country to see him.

But again, you don't know the guy right? Never met with him? You read a couple articles and that's it...?:skeptic:

He did a basic scope on Selanne and didn't fix it. He didn't get better until two further surgeries fixed it.

Raffi Torres "just couldn't make it back" after his ACL tear despite being young enough and the injury not considered as serious.

Just those two off the top of my head.

A doctor at his practice testified he brought alcohol into the office and gave it to the patient, who he was treating for alcoholism,

Also, his behavior during the Bonds trial made it pretty clear he perjured himself.

I am glad you recovered from your issue, and no, I've never wanted to choke anyone.
 
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