Erik Karlsson (Part 3)

[Chimpradamus]

To even compare Karlsson with Doughty is crazy. LA has pretty much only shutdown defenders so they don't need to bury Doughty. They need hin to provide offense though. Karlsson is miles away of Doughty in terms of positioning and defensive game. Doughty would never defend this poorly on a good team like SJ and he'd never be on the ice for so many goals against.

The only hope for the Sharks is Karlsson's history of playing poorly until christmas as mentioned here by two posters. I wasn't aware of that. I looked it up and it's true. His stats until christmas aren't anywhere near Norris caliber but his numbers tend to look very good from then on.

I still don't think that there's room for both Burns and Karlsson to play effectively on one team but at least there's hope that it could get better.

Ok. Then why is Karlsson so much more effective than Doughty at getting the puck up the ice, keeping it there and making sure your team scores instead of the other team? You want me to point out specifics? Doughty as the greatest defenseman is old school hockey thinking, purely. He doesn't have the primary qualities for the game of the future.

You want modern hockey, you would pick Karlsson every time. Doughty is so great defending. Yes, because he's more prone having to do it.

Doughty should be very lucky it's only a case of reputation he got his Norris, instead of integrating that stomach feeling with some statistics. So Doughty won a Norris on the Kings and some Cups. Good luck copying that career as a lonely star player on a budget team. Doughty and Karlsson switching teams would mean Doughty would be seen as Bouwmeester and Karlsson seen as... something really special. Ok, roughly speaking, as I still respect Doughty, but still, that transition of teams would've been brutal for Doughty and a heaven for Karlsson.

Doughty - and other players - should also be lucky Cooke cut Karlsson up. Pre-Cooke, Karlsson was skating up the ice at McDavid level, with ease. He glided faster than 90% of the players in the league after a few strides. Watch old footage and you'll easily see it. Now he's only elite. If Karlsson wouldn't have been butchered in his jawdropping skating, he would've been at... I don't even want to speculate further. That he's still such an effective player says a lot.

 

[TomasHertlsRooster]

 

[LeftHeartInSF]

Can we re-sign Karlsson but waive his mustache?

 

[BaileyMacTavish]

Seeing EK65 get involved with our community is a great sign like Kane last year. I'm not gonna read much into but hope this points towards him staying long term

 

[BaileyMacTavish]

Also hate to double post but he gets to wear PJs to work. Lucky. Lol

 

[Chimpradamus]

DeBoer speaks out about Karlsson. All in all, he's pretty happy and he feels patient with the progress. First 10 games, not so happy, last 10 games, quite happy and livid about 2-3 games, as he felt he has never coached a player that could control a game like Karlsson did. He feels Karlsson's foundation is there and he's only getting better every night.

 

[Hinterland]

Ok. Then why is Karlsson so much more effective than Doughty at getting the puck up the ice, keeping it there and making sure your team scores instead of the other team? You want me to point out specifics? Doughty as the greatest defenseman is old school hockey thinking, purely. He doesn't have the primary qualities for the game of the future.

You want modern hockey, you would pick Karlsson every time. Doughty is so great defending. Yes, because he's more prone having to do it.

Doughty should be very lucky it's only a case of reputation he got his Norris, instead of integrating that stomach feeling with some statistics. So Doughty won a Norris on the Kings and some Cups. Good luck copying that career as a lonely star player on a budget team. Doughty and Karlsson switching teams would mean Doughty would be seen as Bouwmeester and Karlsson seen as... something really special. Ok, roughly speaking, as I still respect Doughty, but still, that transition of teams would've been brutal for Doughty and a heaven for Karlsson.

Doughty - and other players - should also be lucky Cooke cut Karlsson up. Pre-Cooke, Karlsson was skating up the ice at McDavid level, with ease. He glided faster than 90% of the players in the league after a few strides. Watch old footage and you'll easily see it. Now he's only elite. If Karlsson wouldn't have been butchered in his jawdropping skating, he would've been at... I don't even want to speculate further. That he's still such an effective player says a lot.

I'm oldschool and I don't care. Washington just won a friggin cup with a pretty oldschool kind of hockey. Karlsson can't defend but won a friggin Norris. Until then, the best defenseman received the trophy, nowodays it's the one with the highest point total. If that's your "new school" then I want nothing to do with it. Karlsson is a friggin -9. To do that on a good team like the Sharks is pretty difficult. That much I can tell you. No, he doesn't have special tools but other than Karlsson he knows how to play against the puck. He knows how to use his body, how to position himself etc. In that regard, every AHLer could do just as good as Karlsson. Let's be honest. He was always poor at "defending" which is what is a defender is hired to do.
Sharks better hope that Karlsson doesn't forget to turn it on after christmas. Until now he's the worst of the Sharks defenders and not even close from being worth the bucks he's making let alone those he's looking to make. What he does against the puck and particularly around the net...I don't know but it's no good. He's daydreaming while opponents are scoring goals. Doughty would never ever be a minus player in Karlsson's spot let alone causing that many goals against. I'll guarantee you that. Yes, he's minus 9, too but other than Karlsson he's on a poor team and not single handedly causing scoring chances/goals game after game.

You should also stop dreaming about Karlsson's skating. That's history. Pre injuries. He'll always look as ugly as he does now. Still above average of course but clearly off.

 

[Jargon]

I'm oldschool and I don't care. Washington just won a friggin cup with a pretty oldschool kind of hockey. Karlsson can't defend but won a friggin Norris. Until then, the best defenseman received the trophy, nowodays it's the one with the highest point total. If that's your "new school" then I want nothing to do with it. Karlsson is a friggin -9. To do that on a good team like the Sharks is pretty difficult. That much I can tell you. No, he doesn't have special tools but other than Karlsson he knows how to play against the puck. He knows how to use his body, how to position himself etc. In that regard, every AHLer could do just as good as Karlsson. Let's be honest. He was always poor at "defending" which is what is a defender is hired to do.
Sharks better hope that Karlsson doesn't forget to turn it on after christmas. Until now he's the worst of the Sharks defenders and not even close from being worth the bucks he's making let alone those he's looking to make. What he does against the puck and particularly around the net...I don't know but it's no good. He's daydreaming while opponents are scoring goals. Doughty would never ever be a minus player in Karlsson's spot let alone causing that many goals against. I'll guarantee you that. Yes, he's minus 9, too but other than Karlsson he's on a poor team and not single handedly causing scoring chances/goals game after game.

You should also stop dreaming about Karlsson's skating. That's history. Pre injuries. He'll always look as ugly as he does now. Still above average of course but clearly off.

He’s like the Barzal of defensemen.

 

[tiburon12]

I'm oldschool and I don't care. Washington just won a friggin cup with a pretty oldschool kind of hockey. Karlsson can't defend but won a friggin Norris. Until then, the best defenseman received the trophy, nowodays it's the one with the highest point total. If that's your "new school" then I want nothing to do with it. Karlsson is a friggin -9. To do that on a good team like the Sharks is pretty difficult. That much I can tell you. No, he doesn't have special tools but other than Karlsson he knows how to play against the puck. He knows how to use his body, how to position himself etc. In that regard, every AHLer could do just as good as Karlsson. Let's be honest. He was always poor at "defending" which is what is a defender is hired to do.
Sharks better hope that Karlsson doesn't forget to turn it on after christmas. Until now he's the worst of the Sharks defenders and not even close from being worth the bucks he's making let alone those he's looking to make. What he does against the puck and particularly around the net...I don't know but it's no good. He's daydreaming while opponents are scoring goals. Doughty would never ever be a minus player in Karlsson's spot let alone causing that many goals against. I'll guarantee you that. Yes, he's minus 9, too but other than Karlsson he's on a poor team and not single handedly causing scoring chances/goals game after game.

You should also stop dreaming about Karlsson's skating. That's history. Pre injuries. He'll always look as ugly as he does now. Still above average of course but clearly off.

2012 the kings won the cup and Doughty was a -2 in the regular season

 

[LeftHeartInSF]

DeBoer speaks out about Karlsson. All in all, he's pretty happy and he feels patient with the progress. First 10 games, not so happy, last 10 games, quite happy and livid about 2-3 games, as he felt he has never coached a player that could control a game like Karlsson did. He feels Karlsson's foundation is there and he's only getting better every night.

That's some significant praise from Pete at the end there.

 

[Fistfullofbeer]

That's some significant praise from Pete at the end there.

Yeah. Right there at the end, saying that he has never had a guy like that on any of his teams is saying something considering he has had really great seasons from both Jumbo and Burns.

 

[TomasHertlsRooster]

DeBoer speaks out about Karlsson. All in all, he's pretty happy and he feels patient with the progress. First 10 games, not so happy, last 10 games, quite happy and livid about 2-3 games, as he felt he has never coached a player that could control a game like Karlsson did. He feels Karlsson's foundation is there and he's only getting better every night.

Hearing that from PDB, I can’t help but feel a bit slighted on Burns’ behalf...

For one, he completely jumbles up the facts, and says that Karlsson was the best player in the NHL in 2016-2017 and that he won the Norris Trophy that year. Meanwhile, in reality, it was Brent f***ing Burns who won the Norris that year, and whose own peers made him a finalist for the Ted Lindsay Award; something which Karlsson never has been.

Two, he says that he has never played with a game-breaker/controller of the ice like Karlsson. That’s a lot to say when Brent Burns was just recently voted best defenseman in the NHL and first Ted Lindsay Finalist since Pronger in 2000, and when Joe Thornton was just recently voted the 2nd best center in the NHL.

I don’t really think Burns would care about hearing that, so I shouldn’t either. And I do think they’re being particularly friendly to Karlsson in order to try and get him to re-sign. And, hopefully, Karlsson does have another gear above what Burns/Thornton did in those seasons that only Pete can see. But I haven’t seen it yet.

 

[Lebanezer]

Hearing that from PDB, I can’t help but feel a bit slighted on Burns’ behalf...

For one, he completely jumbles up the facts, and says that Karlsson was the best player in the NHL in 2016-2017 and that he won the Norris Trophy that year. Meanwhile, in reality, it was Brent ****ing Burns who won the Norris that year, and whose own peers made him a finalist for the Ted Lindsay Award; something which Karlsson never has been.

Two, he says that he has never played with a game-breaker/controller of the ice like Karlsson. That’s a lot to say when Brent Burns was just recently voted best defenseman in the NHL and first Ted Lindsay Finalist since Pronger in 2000, and when Joe Thornton was just recently voted the 2nd best center in the NHL.

I don’t really think Burns would care about hearing that, so I shouldn’t either. And I do think they’re being particularly friendly to Karlsson in order to try and get him to re-sign. And, hopefully, Karlsson does have another gear above what Burns/Thornton did in those seasons that only Pete can see. But I haven’t seen it yet.

It's this. He's trying to build Karlsson's confidence as well as show the team's desire to have him around. It's calculated.

 

[LeftHeartInSF]

It's this. He's trying to build Karlsson's confidence as well as show the team's desire to have him around. It's calculated.

PDB and DW be like:

 

[HeiHouHauki]

I'm pretty sure DeBoer ment -17 playoffs, Karlsson was the best player then no doubt. That kind of domination in playoffs is more valuable than Norris worthy regular season in my mind.

 

[wishman]

That's What he said: Pete deboer - The Point

 

[finch13thrice]

Loved his game last night. He read my post about lack of effort and is turning it around.

You’re welcome

 

[Alaskanice]

That's What he said: Pete deboer - The Point

Wishman,
Thank you for finding this and posting it. I think many posters on here could use a focused read on this.

 

[danielpalfredsson]

I'm oldschool and I don't care. Washington just won a friggin cup with a pretty oldschool kind of hockey. Karlsson can't defend but won a friggin Norris. Until then, the best defenseman received the trophy, nowodays it's the one with the highest point total. If that's your "new school" then I want nothing to do with it. Karlsson is a friggin -9. To do that on a good team like the Sharks is pretty difficult. That much I can tell you. No, he doesn't have special tools but other than Karlsson he knows how to play against the puck. He knows how to use his body, how to position himself etc. In that regard, every AHLer could do just as good as Karlsson. Let's be honest. He was always poor at "defending" which is what is a defender is hired to do.
Sharks better hope that Karlsson doesn't forget to turn it on after christmas. Until now he's the worst of the Sharks defenders and not even close from being worth the bucks he's making let alone those he's looking to make. What he does against the puck and particularly around the net...I don't know but it's no good. He's daydreaming while opponents are scoring goals. Doughty would never ever be a minus player in Karlsson's spot let alone causing that many goals against. I'll guarantee you that. Yes, he's minus 9, too but other than Karlsson he's on a poor team and not single handedly causing scoring chances/goals game after game.

You should also stop dreaming about Karlsson's skating. That's history. Pre injuries. He'll always look as ugly as he does now. Still above average of course but clearly off.

I don't know how anybody can watch the last Sharks game and claim that Karlsson cannot defend.

The guy basically controlled the entire game, turned over pucks, transitioned the puck perfectly, and made if I recall no mistakes or close to it. He also played the most time on the entire team.

He's had games, hell even chunks of seasons where he's done things that would get defenders yelled at for in an EASHL drop in game. I've watched the last few San Jose games, and he's had some really bad moments. But to say Karlsson can't defend is absurd. You can't disqualify an entire style of defense that is based on anticipation and stick work just because it is different from a defender who clears the crease and plays physically with the body.

Karlsson has all the tools to where he could be a top pairing guy without having to be a rover and without having to put up 65+ points. The most recent game is a perfect example of that.

 

[PatrikBerglund]

Burns has never been able to control/dictate the games/play/ice the way Karlsson has in the past.


No defenceman has since Lidstrom's prime years.

 

[matt trick]

Burns has never been able to control/dictate the games/play/ice the way Karlsson has in the past.


No defenceman has since Lidstrom's prime years.

CrossBow, Burns and Doughty have absolutely demonstrated that ability. In fact, Burns has for the bulk of the last 20 games. I agree that Karlsson is- at his best- the best d-man in the league. I think we're agreed that Karlsson has largely been nowhere near his best for the first quarter of this year. That said, the way Doughty and Burns dominate games means there is absolutely an argument about the most impactful d-man in terms of controlling a game.

I appreciate you love Karlsson, but if you are failing to see the excellence Burns has been delivering on both sides of the ice so far this year, you are really, really missing out!

 

[jarr92]

CrossBow, Burns and Doughty have absolutely demonstrated that ability. In fact, Burns has for the bulk of the last 20 games. I agree that Karlsson is- at his best- the best d-man in the league. I think we're agreed that Karlsson has largely been nowhere near his best for the first quarter of this year. That said, the way Doughty and Burns dominate games means there is absolutely an argument about the most impactful d-man in terms of controlling a game.

I appreciate you love Karlsson, but if you are failing to see the excellence Burns has been delivering on both sides of the ice so far this year, you are really, really missing out!

From watching this season so far, when they are both on Burns and Karlsson dominate games on a very similar level, but in a different way. Karlsson can dominate a game and control basically the entire play both offensively and defensively, but Burns can dominate with strength and power and can score/get quality shots from areas no other defenseman can. Burns has been more consistent thus far, but I think their "peek level" of play is almost the same as they can both conceivably be the best defenseman on the planet on any given night.

 

[TomasHertlsRooster]

Burns has never been able to control/dictate the games/play/ice the way Karlsson has in the past.


No defenceman has since Lidstrom's prime years.

Ted Lindsay Award Finalist Finishes:

Brent Burns - 1
Erik Karlsson - 0
Nicklas Lidstrom - 0

Honestly, you are just trolling the board at this point. We get it, you think Burns is overrated and sucks. You’ve been provided with a mountain of evidence as to why this is incorrect. If you want to keep spewing this bullshit, you should probably do it in the main board or the Senators board.

 

[matt trick]

Ted Lindsay Award Finalist Finishes:

Brent Burns - 1
Erik Karlsson - 0
Nicklas Lidstrom - 0

Honestly, you are just trolling the board at this point. We get it, you think Burns is overrated and sucks. You’ve been provided with a mountain of evidence as to why this is incorrect. If you want to keep spewing this bull****, you should probably do it in the main board or the Senators board.

How did Lidstrom not get a Lidsey Finalist vote.

I remember watching a game (maybe his 60th, or 80th against the Sharks) and he failed to keep a puck in on a PP, rimmed around the boards and out. It was the first I'd ever noticed Lidstrom make a mistake. That guy was the perfect d-man. Better defensively than Vlasic at his peak and a what, 65 point player on average

 

[OrrNumber4]

How did Lidstrom not get a Lidsey Finalist vote.

I remember watching a game (maybe his 60th, or 80th against the Sharks) and he failed to keep a puck in on a PP, rimmed around the boards and out. It was the first I'd ever noticed Lidstrom make a mistake. That guy was the perfect d-man. Better defensively than Vlasic at his peak and a what, 65 point player on average

Lidstrom was like the greatest driver of the past 30 years, but Burns and Karlsson are like the world's best engines of the last decade.

Put Lidstrom in a great car, that already has a great engine (Yzerman, Fedorov, Datsyuk, Zetterberg) and he's going to be lethal. But, even an average driver in a car with a great engine can put on a show.