Post-Game Talk: Episode 6 (Pens 3, Leafs 0) - Return of the Murri

[Riptide]

Well all their play combined tells me sometimes it works and sometimes it doesn't.

And making the 4th line the 3rd line and sticking Brass on wing is what they did. And will presumably continue to do in tight games where they don't trust Sprong and Simon. Not the most elegant outcome, but keeps the young guys on ice and picking up minutes when its not tight.

Which is what we want. It's not ideal, but it gives them more games to impress the staff that they should get looks higher up in the lineup. From what I saw lastnight (missed most of the 1st), I liked both their games.

Again - personally I think it is also much about those two not being guys to play together. Less so now when they must be short on confidence. They’re too unseasoned, and would both benefit from being third wheels with two established players, IMO.

Yes. At no point should Simon and Sprong be paired together - unless it's with Crosby or Malkin. I don't think we're doing either any good (or the team in general) if that's the plan for the short term. But again... I'm just happy that we're actually playing them instead of sitting them. I'd like to be giving them different looks with different lines more than we have so far... but it's still early in the season.

 

[Ogrezilla]

I for one am shocked that a healthy offseason and less fresh worry over neck surgery has allowed Letang to bounce back this year. There's no way anybody could have expected that.


PS: that's a lie. But I am super excited at just how good he's been. I was expecting good Letang back, but he's playing as good as he ever has.

 

[Riptide]

Yeah. This is actually one of the most exciting new developments on the young season, to me. I've definitely noticed.

Letang has been DAMNED impressive so far this year.

Also... side note: how the hell is Malkin sitting at nearly 60% on the year in the circle?!?

He's done this a few times, although it's usually in the POs. I'm not too sure what it is... but there's times when he becomes an absolutely dominant force in the circle. Too bad it wasn't more often.
- GM5 vs WSH in 2016. 64.3%.
- The entire TB series. 59.7% (he had 1 game at 85.7%).
- WSH series in 2017. 55%
- GM1 and 4 vs NSH (he sucked balls the rest of the series)
- GM4 and 6 vs OTT he was over 70%.

 

[Riptide]

Yeah they have to figure out a happy balance, there. I hate to make it about cost/benefit but you seriously can't pay a guy that kind of contract and then not really know what to do with him.

Actually you can as long as you can afford it. And it's not like we have 3 better RWs than him right now. Yeah the lines need to be sorted out a little bit... but for now I'm not really worried about it. Some people seem to think we should have this all sorted out after a couple of games... that's not how it works.

But I am surprised that someone would be bitching about Hornqvist on L4, as that would mean that Sprong was in the top 9... which is where most want him...

 

[vodeni]

He's done this a few times, although it's usually in the POs. I'm not too sure what it is... but there's times when he becomes an absolutely dominant force in the circle. Too bad it wasn't more often.
- GM5 vs WSH in 2016. 64.3%.
- The entire TB series. 59.7% (he had 1 game at 85.7%).
- WSH series in 2017. 55%
- GM1 and 4 vs NSH (he sucked balls the rest of the series)
- GM4 and 6 vs OTT he was over 70%.

I watch malkin carefully, borderline stalking, I feel I can tell when he is ready to play when not. Watch him in a circle, if he bends his knees a bit there, he is in to win it. he has doone in the past in POs, he always does it on the left circle in OZ to set Phil for a one timer.

If he sticks straight up, he does not even bother, he is there to lose the FO. This season I yet to see him mailing it in in the circle...

 

[BladeRunner66]

He's done this a few times, although it's usually in the POs. I'm not too sure what it is... but there's times when he becomes an absolutely dominant force in the circle. Too bad it wasn't more often.
- GM5 vs WSH in 2016. 64.3%.
- The entire TB series. 59.7% (he had 1 game at 85.7%).
- WSH series in 2017. 55%
- GM1 and 4 vs NSH (he sucked balls the rest of the series)
- GM4 and 6 vs OTT he was over 70%.

You kinda answered your question there Rippy,

there's times when he becomes an absolutely dominant force

, it's the BEAST mode thing, there's not much to add really. A healthy Malkin can have major D relapses at times but when he's on, the D becomes irrelevant as it's just general dominance all over.

If that Force of Nature mistery could stay 71 Shades of Mario all the time, he'd basically scare the opposing D right back in their goalie's backyard. Pack'em like fish in the net.
--
Also, welcome back Murray!

 

[mpp9]

Watching Zaitsev missing shot after shot from the point, if the Leafs ever acquire their D upgrade and said player has a knack for getting shots on net, their offense is about as complete as it gets.

Fortunately for us, Malkin owns Tavares, and Sid+Letang/DuMoulin have kept Matthews off the scoreboard pretty regularly.

 

[Tom Hanks]

I for one am shocked that a healthy offseason and less fresh worry over neck surgery has allowed Letang to bounce back this year. There's no way anybody could have expected that.


PS: that's a lie. But I am super excited at just how good he's been. I was expecting good Letang back, but he's playing as good as he ever has.

It was definitely an unknown what level he could get back to considering the area operated on but yeah a full pre season and he’s back even better than I thought.

I’ve never seen him play this smart before. He keeps that up then there can be talks of #1 D man in the league

 

[BladeRunner66]

It was definitely an unknown what level he could get back to considering the area operated on but yeah a full pre season and he’s back better than I though.

I’ve never seen him play this smart before. He keeps that up then there can be talks of #1 D man in the league

Tanger and The Beast have something in common imo, it seems the less they think, the more they go instinct, the better they are. It may have seemed to you that Letang was smarter but in the end hockey is basically a dominance game. When these guys are on, D basically becomes irrelevant, they just scare opposition back where they belong.

Remember what Letang said about going for more O before season started. Offense, offensive, aggressive, back off you f***ers!

This is a winning attitude if there's any, wether it may be in the O or D zone.

 

[Tom Hanks]

Tanger and The Beast have something in common imo, it seems the less they think, the more they go instinct, the better they are. It may have seemed to you that Letang was smarter but in the end hockey is basically a dominance game. When these guys are on, D basically becomes irrelevant, they just scare opposition back where they belong.

Remember what Letang said about going for more O before season started. Offense, offensive, aggressive, back off you ****ers!

This is a winning attitude if there's any, wether it may be in the O or D zone.

I see it more than instinct this time around. He’s made decisions where he’ll use his teammates or shoot it if he’s not in a great position to skate with the puck. Quick decisions too and I’ve never really seen that as much before. With the skill and skating he already possesses he becomes even more dangerous with a brain (in a good way for us )

 

[Al Smith]

https://www.tsn.ca/data-is-influencing-the-strategy-behind-pulling-goaltenders-1.1193806

I asked about pulling the goalie with 3 minutes left and down one goal. Looks like that is still above average of 2 minutes left.

 

[Riptide]

Fortunately for us, Malkin owns Tavares, and Sid+Letang/DuMoulin have kept Matthews off the scoreboard pretty regularly.

In lastnight's game I only noticed him once. For a little over 2 periods of hockey (missed most of the 1st) and for a player that some are talking about being near that McDavid/Crosby level... that's really really bad. That said, I didn't notice Tavares out there all that much either - which says more about how poorly the Leafs were playing, then how great we were playing.

 

[Al Smith]

In lastnight's game I only noticed him once. For a little over 2 periods of hockey (missed most of the 1st) and for a player that some are talking about being near that McDavid/Crosby level... that's really really bad. That said, I didn't notice Tavares out there all that much either - which says more about how poorly the Leafs were playing, then how great we were playing.

I literally forgot Matthews was playing until about half way through the third.

 

[BlindWillyMcHurt]

More seriously... I dunno. I think you were one of the guys I was talking with about roster balance and awkward fits in the Summer and this is kinda an epitome of it. Six games in so a lot of things are going to get sorted and maybe this is one of them, but Horny really needs a lot of speed and skill on his line. Line 1 would be ideal, but no go, Kessel's hogging Line 2, Line 3... where's the LW who brings it? Is he better with Brassard than Rust is (probably not)?

At the same time... leaving aside Hornqvist's general good stats with anyone and reliability, he's a guy who is playoff gold. If Horny is an awkward fit in regular season but then magic in the PO when Sid is told to shut it, is that worth the cost?

Eh. I dunno what I'm arguing at this point. Right now, I'll take 11-13 ES minutes a night on a heavyweight 4th line while getting lots of PP time (when we get some damn PPs...). Not ideal but it's worth the price to me with one eye on the play offs. But, to really jump the gun, would you trade Horny for a RW who we think would be perfect for Sid? I expect to be lynched for even mouthing the suggestion and I don't think I'd do it, but I could see it paying off.

Yeah that was me. And to be clear I'm not trying to really dump on the guy only 6 games in. It's just a matter of fit, to me. And paying Hornqvist 5+ million at term to skate largely on the fourth line just doesn't seem terribly smart to me. Regardless of whether or not they can afford it (and can they, really?), it's a waste. I agree about his value in the post season, obviously. But man...

As to your question... would I? Probably, yeah. If you could somehow guarantee me the guy coming back was going to mesh with Crosby. But that's obviously a silly and unrealistic condition. Besides, the crappy thing there is that Hornqvist largely IS a great RW fit for Crosby but, well... here we are! Though I've always had to assume there is a darn good reason Sid doesn't like that combination.

Once again I guess it comes down to this -- I have a massive amount of respect for Hornqvist and what he's done for this team. He's always been a playoff warrior and that's just a fact. But I don't like that contract and really have to wonder how it's going to play out, considering the dynamics of the team/lineup.

 

[Angrrus]

At the end it looks like he recovered and knocked the puck away. Facts are: He’s so much better than last year so there’s a collective sigh of relief; and he’s been our best defenseman. I guess you can debate the elite thing all you want.

He is better than last year. Which doesn't mean he can't be overrated by many.

Note for the moderator: This is not a troll post, but my genuine opinion.

 

[Peat]

Yeah that was me. And to be clear I'm not trying to really dump on the guy only 6 games in. It's just a matter of fit, to me. And paying Hornqvist 5+ million at term to skate largely on the fourth line just doesn't seem terribly smart to me. Regardless of whether or not they can afford it (and can they, really?), it's a waste. I agree about his value in the post season, obviously. But man...

Maybe a bit devil's advocate, but a bit of waste is natural. Try to trim too much fat and eventually you're cutting muscle.

Are there better things we could have done with Horny's money this summer (or now), either in FA or by being able to trade for someone worth a lotta money? I'm skeptical. I can't remember every contract, but I think he was significantly the cheapest of the major wing FAs available this summer (which kinda makes sense as he's one of the lesser of that number, but I don't think JvR is worth 1.5m more to us even if we coulda got him). Could have got Skinner assuming he'd come here (something felt weird about that, so big assumption) but couldn't have matched the bid for Patches. So... I feel happy with it from that sense. Sure the LW would have more minutes here but eh. If two months down the line we could land Saad or Niederreiter or Duchene and Horny's contract is in the way... move him?

Plus we all know the magic line blender will move him from the 4th in about 5 games max.

As to your question... would I? Probably, yeah. If you could somehow guarantee me the guy coming back was going to mesh with Crosby. But that's obviously a silly and unrealistic condition. Besides, the crappy thing there is that Hornqvist largely IS a great RW fit for Crosby but, well... here we are! Though I've always had to assume there is a darn good reason Sid doesn't like that combination.

Once again I guess it comes down to this -- I have a massive amount of respect for Hornqvist and what he's done for this team. He's always been a playoff warrior and that's just a fact. But I don't like that contract and really have to wonder how it's going to play out, considering the dynamics of the team/lineup.

Well yeah. The Sidbot's malfunctioning programming when it comes to Horny does kinda suck. I get why, but... bleh.

 

[Tom Hanks]

Yeah that was me. And to be clear I'm not trying to really dump on the guy only 6 games in. It's just a matter of fit, to me. And paying Hornqvist 5+ million at term to skate largely on the fourth line just doesn't seem terribly smart to me. Regardless of whether or not they can afford it (and can they, really?), it's a waste. I agree about his value in the post season, obviously. But man...

As to your question... would I? Probably, yeah. If you could somehow guarantee me the guy coming back was going to mesh with Crosby. But that's obviously a silly and unrealistic condition. Besides, the crappy thing there is that Hornqvist largely IS a great RW fit for Crosby but, well... here we are! Though I've always had to assume there is a darn good reason Sid doesn't like that combination.

Once again I guess it comes down to this -- I have a massive amount of respect for Hornqvist and what he's done for this team. He's always been a playoff warrior and that's just a fact. But I don't like that contract and really have to wonder how it's going to play out, considering the dynamics of the team/lineup.

He is a piece that if we lose we don’t have. He’s a consistent point producer every year and a playoff warrior. In tight games if you need someone to do the grunt work he’s there.

Contract was 1 year longer than I would have liked but you don’t walk away because of that. He’s worked well with Crosby, was great with Malkin (as part of HGH). He’d be great on a 3rd line with any centre and a LW with some speed and a scoring touch (Sheary played his best with Horny on the other wing). I know you mentioned him on the 4th line but he was 8th in ice time last night and on the season.

He’s a guy you can trust to put out on the ice in any situation and you know he’s going to compete as hard as anyone to get the win.

I love him so I will always want him here until he proves otherwise.

 

[Angrrus]

I bet I could go find a gif of that happening to Burns, Hedman, Karlsson and Doughty if I could be bothered. 1 play doesn't make or break a player, and Letang has been MUCH better than that 4 second clip would suggest.

That is true. Except this gif illustrates not and anomaly but a regular occurrence in case of Letang. Those who have eyes and a TV-set should be able to see.

 

[Angrrus]

So no "elite" defensemen should ever be beat, ever?
If that's your standard, then there are no elite defensemen in the NHL or on this planet

How many times can an elite d-man be beat per game? How many of those can lead to goals against? How would that affect team's chances to win? What is the acceptable rate of being-beat-per-60 that still allowes one to be considered "elite"?

Note for the moderator: This is not a troll post, but my genuine surprise that people go to great length to absolve a player they have a (man)crush on of accountability.

 

[Tom Hanks]

Maybe a bit devil's advocate, but a bit of waste is natural. Try to trim too much fat and eventually you're cutting muscle.

Are there better things we could have done with Horny's money this summer (or now), either in FA or by being able to trade for someone worth a lotta money? I'm skeptical. I can't remember every contract, but I think he was significantly the cheapest of the major wing FAs available this summer (which kinda makes sense as he's one of the lesser of that number, but I don't think JvR is worth 1.5m more to us even if we coulda got him). Could have got Skinner assuming he'd come here (something felt weird about that, so big assumption) but couldn't have matched the bid for Patches. So... I feel happy with it from that sense. Sure the LW would have more minutes here but eh. If two months down the line we could land Saad or Niederreiter or Duchene and Horny's contract is in the way... move him?

Plus we all know the magic line blender will move him from the 4th in about 5 games max.



Well yeah. The Sidbot's malfunctioning programming when it comes to Horny does kinda suck. I get why, but... bleh.

Word is Skinner wanted to be closer to family and friends (driving distance). He’s from Southern Ontario so I think he wanted to go to Buffalo. Probably would have preferred Toronto but they weren’t offering.

 

[ILikeTurtles]

At the end it looks like he recovered and knocked the puck away. Facts are: He’s so much better than last year so there’s a collective sigh of relief; and he’s been our best defenseman. I guess you can debate the elite thing all you want.

Indeed he does. They should a different angle last night and he recovers well actually. Good eye.

 

[ColePens]

Guys... why are you making me moderate? If a user posts about Letang having a bad game after what he and Dumo did - ignore it. It's one user out of ALL of us. If that user is also posting underneath that "This is not a troll post" then why in the world are you all falling for it?

Use the ignore button and don't reply. Period. Or.. use the report function and one of the mods can swoop in.

 

[ZeroPucksGiven]

Thanks for the link.

In case of Letang - if you look at the body of evidence - plays like this appear to be more like a norm than an exception. This was just the most recent illustration, but far from unique one.

It's curious how when Crosby or Malking get stopped by a d-man when Pens need a goal - people from their bandwagon say "It was a great defensive play!" But when our presumably best d-man gets walked by a star forward, the same people say "It was and elite opponent!' Where are those "good defensive plays" when Pens need them? Where are that elite offensive skill when Pens need it?

Note for the moderator: This is not a troll post but my genuine attempt to understand the logic of fanboyism.

Seems like you're suffering from limited sample sizes and anectodalism.

I've seen Kessel, Sid and Malkin walk around defenseman both good and bad. I've seen them get it poked away from defensemen both good and bad. There are literally HUNDREDS of videos to support that.

Letang is in the crosshairs both fairly and unfairly- it comes with the territory of being the #1 guy on your defense.
Did Letang have a couple boneheaded plays last spring? Yup
Did Letang have a couple of nice plays last spring? Yup

No one is denying that Letang had an uneven year last year. Everyone is lauding that he's looked better. What is your gripe exactly?

 

[Turin]

When Letang said he felt a million times better I didn’t actually think he did the math but here we are.

 

[Peat]

He’d be great on a 3rd line with any centre and a LW with some speed and a scoring touch (Sheary played his best with Horny on the other wing).

Shame we only have one of those at present.