Proposal: Ehlers for Draisaitl

[Jumptheshark]

Didn't he have around 80 points on McDavid's wing the last 2 years?

edit: 79

and how many pts did Ehlers get away from Laine and or Schiefle?

 

[Joey Moss]

That's quite a bit...

He had 5 more ES points this season playing much less with McDavid as a center on the 2nd line. A 2nd line with a struggling Lucic and rotating wingers like Caggiula, Aberg, Slepyshev. There really is no argument to be made here.

 

[Drew311]

Jets add Roslovic.

 

[QuietContrarian]

16 points in 13 games and had best PPG in playoffs. Pretty impressive, sorry he did not get 7 assists in 14 games with no goals like EHLers

Why do you keep calling him EHLers?

Not sure, but think it could have something to do with Ehlers playing pp2 and having less toi than Drai.

Ehlers had 15:52 avg toi in this years PO.

and in 16-17 Drai had 19:32 and pp 1 I believe. playing 56.2% of his EV PO toi with McD.

Yeah, Drai has more value, but lets not make out to be total lunacy.

Ehlers was top 7 for players with less than 17mins (16:05 was his avg) in the regular season.
Draisaitl's was 19:19

Ehlers also topped that stat, the season before, top 5, but this time with less than 18.(17:29 was his avg.)

 

[QuietContrarian]

and how many pts did Ehlers get away from Laine and or Schiefle?

Ehlers was the most shuffled player on the Jets.

 

[QuietContrarian]

and how many pts did Ehlers get away from Laine and or Schiefle?

He did not play with Chef, bar the first 10 games of the season.

His pts production was quite split.

Nikolaj Ehlers 2017-18 Scoring Log | Hockey-Reference.com

 

[Joey Moss]

Why do you keep calling him EHLers?

Not sure, but think it could have something to do with Ehlers playing pp2 and having less toi than Drai.

Ehlers had 15:52 avg toi in this years PO.

and in 16-17 Drai had 19:32 and pp 1 I believe.

Yeah, Drai has more value, but lets not make out to be total lunacy.

Ehlers was top 7 for players with less than 17mins (16:05 was his avg) in the regular season.
Draisaitl's was 19:19

Ehlers also topped that stat, the season before, top 5, but this time with less than 18.(17:29 was his avg.)

Time on ice is such a "meh" stat to me. Most of the time if a star player is being used less it's because the coach has more to work with. You could also argue this benefits Ehlers just being on the higher scoring, deeper team.

 

[ChaoticOrange]

He did not play with Chef, bar the first 10 games of the season.

His pts production was quite split.

Nikolaj Ehlers 2017-18 Scoring Log | Hockey-Reference.com

But if we’re using the McDavid logic anytime Laine/Scheifele/Wheeler helped, it either shouldn’t count or he should be labelled as riding their coattails.

 

[McSuper]

Why do you keep calling him EHLers?

Not sure, but think it could have something to do with Ehlers playing pp2 and having less toi than Drai.

Ehlers had 15:52 avg toi in this years PO.

and in 16-17 Drai had 19:32 and pp 1 I believe.

Yeah, Drai has more value, but lets not make out to be total lunacy.

Ehlers was top 7 for players with less than 17mins (16:05 was his avg) in the regular season.
Draisaitl's was 19:19

Ehlers also topped that stat, the season before, top 5, but this time with less than 18.(17:29 was his avg.)

I stuck up for Ehlers in this thread so I am not being a home . I call a spade a spade every time . Base on position , size and Draisaitl FO% He would have considerable more value to GM's if they have the cap space . Ehlers would be a more likely target for a team tight to the cap that needs offence .

 

[QuietContrarian]

Time on ice is such a "meh" stat to me. Most of the time if a star player is being used less it's because the coach has more to work with. You could also argue this benefits Ehlers just being on the higher scoring, deeper team.

Ehlers and Laine both suffered in toi, because Connor was given quality linemates in his first full season.

If you dont think a full 3 mins more and pp1 makes a difference, I think we are way to far apart to have a discussion.

Btw, I think Drai has more value, some poaters just make it seem like the Jets would have to add alot for it not to be insane...

 

[QuietContrarian]

But if we’re using the McDavid logic anytime Laine/Scheifele/Wheeler helped, it either shouldn’t count or he should be labelled as riding their coattails.

I have not used that argument...

Btw none of those players are McDavid - He is a friggin generational talent.

And that would mean, Ehlers has no merits himself, and his linemates do not benefit from him, only the other way around. You mentioned 3 players... 2 of whom he did not really benefit that much from, not moreso than they benefitted from him at least.

Everyone benefits from playing with Chef tho, just as they would playing with McJesus.

KC would not get 30 goals and his pt totals playing without Chef and 1line minutes.

 

[ChaoticOrange]

I have not used that argument...

Btw none of those players are McDavid - He is a friggin generational talent.

No, they aren’t, but I’m willing to bet the 2nd linemate was a damn sight better than Patrick Maroon or Milan Lucic which usually gets blissfully ignored when we’re talking about Draisaitl and McDavid.

‘But he plays with McDavid!’ - yeah, and who’s the 2nd guy? *whispers* ‘milan Lucic...’

Scheifele plays with TWO good hockey players, his most common linemates are Connor and Wheeler. How many points do we hypothetically strip for having two great linemates, instead of a hockey god and Moose from the Archie comics?

Nice try with the rest of the argument, but we’ve tried showing that McDavid posts his best numbers with Draisaitl therefore proving that Draisaitl zooms him as well, but that didn’t fly because reasons.

If Draisaitl is a product of McDavid, then the worst Jet on a line is the product of the other two.

 

[Eyeseeing]

That is truly hilarious. There is no chance in hell Draisaitl would be the Jets #1C over Scheifele. Scheifele is light years ahead of Draisaitl.

Saved me posting this
Drai is vastly overrated in that post
Just wow

 

[QuietContrarian]

No, they aren’t, but I’m willing to bet the 2nd linemate was a damn sight better than Patrick Maroon or Milan Lucic which usually gets blissfully ignored when we’re talking about Draisaitl and McDavid.

‘But he plays with McDavid!’ - yeah, and who’s the 2nd guy? *whispers* ‘milan Lucic...’

Scheifele plays with TWO good hockey players, his most common linemates are Connor and Wheeler. How many points do we hypothetically strip for having two great linemates, instead of a hockey god and Moose from the Archie comics?

I added more in my reply.

KC benefitted from Chef and Wheeler, he was a rookie.
Not so much the other way around.

Btw, I did not use that argument with McD, so instead just reply to my original post, instead of using a strawman argument.

Ehlers btw, as I wrote was shuffled alot, and he played alot with Little, who was an offensive black hole this past season.

 

[ChaoticOrange]

I added more in my reply.

KC benefitted from Chef and Wheeler, he was a rookie.
Not so much the other way around.

Btw, I did not use that argument with McD, so instead just reple to my original post, instead of using a strawman argument.

Not you specifically but you’re not new here. You know the stupidity people throw at Draisaitl. Hell there’s a bunch of it in this very thread.

So no Jet benefits from playing with good linemates?

You also keep mentioning Pp1 time like it’s a positive. If you’d watched the Oilers frequently you would realize that was a silly argument, our powerplay was an embarrassment last year. We should have waived every powerplay and asked to play 4 on 4. I bet we would have scored more.

 

[Joey Moss]

Ehlers and Laine both suffered in toi, because Connor was given quality linemates in his first full season.

If you dont think a full 3 mins more and pp1 makes a difference, I think we are way to far apart to have a discussion.

Btw, I think Drai has more value, some poaters just make it seem like the Jets would have to add alot for it not to be insane...

If you want to bring up PP, well..

Jets PP opportunities: 274 (3rd in league)
Oilers PP opportunities: 210 (31st in league)

Jets PP %: 23.4% (5th in league)
Oilers PP %: 14.8% (31st in league)

 

[QuietContrarian]

Not you specifically but you’re not new here. You know the stupidity people throw at Draisaitl. Hell there’s a bunch of it in this very thread.

So no Jet benefits from playing with good linemates?

You also keep mentioning Pp1 time like it’s a positive. If you’d watched the Oilers frequently you would realize that was a silly argument, our powerplay was an embarrassment last year. We should have waived every powerplay and asked to play 4 on 4. I bet we would have scored more.

That is not at all what I wrote tho...

Tbh, im not sure how to reply to your posts... They are a little left and right.

Instead of answering my original post, you keep posting strawmans and proceed to hold me accountable to propositions I have not uttered a word about.

 

[QuietContrarian]

If you want to bring up PP, well..

Jets PP opportunities: 274 (3rd in league)
Oilers PP opportunities: 210 (31st in league)

Jets PP %: 23.4% (5th in league)
Oilers PP %: 14.8% (31st in league)

What the hell has that got to do with oportunities given, and toi?

It is not Ehlers fault your pp with Drai and McD on it sucked.

BTW Ehlers was on pp2, they usually got the last 25-30 seconds of pp. not a lot of time to build up any play.

Hence the majority of our pp pts came from pp1.

But smart of you avoiding the original point made, by jumping to something not really relevant to the discussion I was presenting.

 

[ChaoticOrange]

That is not at all what I wrote tho...

Tbh, im not sure how to reply to your posts... They are a little left and right.

Instead of answering my original post, you keep posting strawmans and proceed to hold me accountable to propositions I have not uttered a word about.

Yeah, it kind of is, if your opinion is none of Connor/Scheifele/Wheeler/Ehlers - and I’m guessing by extension Laine - benefitted at all from having good linemates.

Okay then, a guy asked you directly about Ehlers benefitting from good linemates and you dodged it, saying he was shuffled a lot, and you also espoused the opinion that ‘the jets wouldn’t have to add much for this to not be insane. (sic). The difference in Ehlers moving from really good linemates to pretty good linemates is a hell of a difference in Draisaitl moving from McDavid to scrubs.

Second, ‘insane’ part - Ehlers for Draisaitl is not a base we are interested in, so it doesn’t matter what minor pieces you add. It’s a flawed base.

It just seems that you’re willing to make every excuse in the book for Ehlers but aren’t overly interested in hearing what we have to say about Draisaitl. That’s all.

 

[McVespa99]

Ok forget all the BS. There is no way Edmonton even considers this no matter how you frame the players.

 

[Joey Moss]

What the hell has that got to do with oportunities given, and toi?

It is not Ehlers fault your pp with Drai and McD on it sucked.

BTW Ehlers was on pp2, they usually got the last 25-30 seconds of pp. not a lot of time to build up any play.

Hence the majority of our pp pts came from pp1.

But smart of you avoiding the original point made, by jumping to something not really relevant to the discussion I was presenting.

You keep bringing up the extra 2-3 minutes a game that Draisaitl played than Ehlers, I'll bring up the extra 64 opportunities on the PP that Ehlers had this season, 30 seconds or not that is a massive difference. And the Oilers PP was good a year ago, this was largely coaching/strategy last season (not Drai and McDavid 'sucking' on the PP).

You also bring up TOI, but Ehlers had like a minute of SH time this season and Draisaitl actually plays PK. Have you even brought this up in your TOI argument?

Seems like you're just completely reaching on this one to me.

 

[QuietContrarian]

Okay then, a guy asked you directly about Ehlers benefitting from good linemates and you dodged it, saying he was shuffled a lot, and you also espoused the opinion that ‘the jets wouldn’t have to add much for this to not be insane. (sic). The difference in Ehlers moving from really good linemates to pretty good linemates is a hell of a difference in Draisaitl moving from McDavid to scrubs.

Second, ‘insane’ part - Ehlers for Draisaitl is not a base we are interested in, so it doesn’t matter what minor pieces you add. It’s a flawed base.

Well first of all, I wrote ofc Ehlers benefits from certain players, especially when on a line with Chef.

I then wrote, he was shuffled alot, and his production was, and has always been pretty even no matter who he plays/played with.


So, imo, that is an answer - I just find it weird that those were questiobs to dodge, as you write, my original points made.

And that I keep repeating that I did not at any point write that Draisaitl is riding McD's coattails.

I honestly don't care that you would never trade Ehlers fro Drai, most would not, as Drai is a potential full time C, and has size.

Me disagreing, was to the fact that some posters made it seem like the skilllevel was very skewed in Drai's favor, and that I do not agree to, and that some posters wrote Drai does everything better, even at wing.

Its a bad trade because Drai has more value because of his position and size, not skill, imo, at least.

We disagree, thats fine, but seriously, the way you post is giving me a headache, so lets just end it here, and be happy that this is a trade that never ever happens.

 

[QuietContrarian]

You keep bringing up the extra 2-3 minutes a game that Draisaitl played than Ehlers, I'll bring up the extra 64 opportunities on the PP that Ehlers had this season, 30 seconds or not that is a massive difference. And the Oilers PP was good a year ago, this was largely coaching/strategy last season (not Drai and McDavid 'sucking' on the PP).

You also bring up TOI, but Ehlers had like a minute of SH time this season and Draisaitl actually plays PK. Have you even brought this up in your TOI argument?

Seems like you're just completely reaching on this one to me.

What is it I am reaching on? I agree Drai has more value, I disagree Drais skill is much much higher. You are the one blowing a fuse over it, not me.

It is 3 minutes btw, not 2-3 minutes. - And if 3 minutes of extra ice a game does not a difference make, there is no way in hell 25-30 secs of pp each pp does..

And yes, PK or not, it makes a huge difference in pts made.

You yourself used the excuse that Drai was on an ineffective pp, sow ss Ehlers. Our PP2 sucked ass. and no, I dont agree that 25-30 seconds of pp each time is enough to be effective.

Only 6 players outscored Ehlers with less than 17mins, and out of those 6, none played less than Ehlers.

[MOD]

 

[ChaoticOrange]

Well first of all, I wrote ofc Ehlers benefits from certain players, especially when on a line with Chef.

I then wrote, he was shuffled alot, and his production was, and has always been pretty even no matter who he plays/played with.


So, imo, that is an answer - I just find it weird that those were questiobs to dodge, as you write, my original points made.

And that I keep repeating that I did not at any point write that Draisaitl is riding McD's coattails.

I honestly don't care that you would never trade Ehlers fro Drai, most would not, as Drai is a potential full time C, and has size.

Me disagreing, was to the fact that some posters made it seem like the skilllevel was very skewed in Drai's favor, and that I do not agree to, and that some posters wrote Drai does everything better, even at wing.

Its a bad trade because Drai has more value because of his position and size, not skill, imo, at least.

We disagree, thats fine, but seriously, the way you post is giving me a headache, so lets just end it here, and be happy that this is a trade that never ever happens.

The difference between being shuffled from Scheifele/Wheeler to Little/Laine is a great deal less significant than going from lining up next to McDavid to centring Milan Lucic and Anton Slepyshev. Of course Ehlers’ production stayed similar, he went from really great linemates to pretty great linemates. Draisaitl went from a $500 a night room to a $20 hostel - and, I’ll add, had pretty damn great results despite [MOD]

Auf weidersehen, then. I will say however that Draisaitl is a better player than Ehlers in some fairly significant ways; it’s not just a ‘well he’s bigger and plays Center so that’s why Edmonton doesn’t do this’ thing. I like Ehlers and think he’s really talented but I also don’t think this is especially close from a value standpoint.

 

[Joey Moss]

What is it I am reaching on? I agree Drai has more value, I disagree Drais skill is much much higher. You are the one blowing a fuse over it, not me.

It is 3 minutes btw, not 2-3 minutes.

And yes, PK or not, it makes a huge difference in pts made.

You yourself used the excuse that Drai was on an ineffective pp, sow ss Ehlers. Our PP2 sucked ass. and no, I dont agree that 25-30 seconds of pp each time is enough to be effective.

I really cannot argue with 2 of you like this, it is very passive aggressive, and I already have a wife and a daughter who give me plenty of that

I'm not blowing a fuse. I know Draisaitl is better and you said it yourself. I just think the argument you're making is totally flawed, hence 'reaching' on certain things. I'm not sure how you can say the 3 minutes would make a huge difference in points when a good chunk of those extra minutes are shorthanded.