Ego vs Immortality Framed Forever

Brian39

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I would say if he hits those numbers, they will be lower in scoring and GP, then both Gonchar and M Schneider, and neither are in the HOF.
The guy that I am still surprised that is not in the HOF is Brad McCrimmon, 1222 GP, 403 Points, and a +443, which I believe is a mark that no other defensemen has hit with 1100+ GP.
Yes, Petro would be lower in pure numbers than those two. But he will also have the following advantages:

Schneider: He was never an end-of-year all star while Petro already has been 3 times. Petro only needs 4 more playoff points to surpass him in playoff scoring and his international resume is decidedly better (World Junior and Olympic success). Petro's 19 points on his Cup run is also more impressive than Schneider's 3. Petro also wore a C, something Schneider never did.

Gonchar: It is much closer and I believe that Gonchar will eventually get in. But Gonchar has zero international gold medals. Another Cup for Petro would make the edge 2-1 while another gold medal would make the gold medal count 4-0 for Petro. As of now, Petro leads end-of-year all star nods 3-2. Gonchar also never wore a C and let's be honest: all things being equal the HOF is going to put in a Canadian captain over a Russian.

Petro needs either another Cup/Gold or a Norris trophy to merit consideration. I think another Cup/Gold is far more likely than a Norris, which is why I focused on those. Vegas is a genuine contender and should be for at least the next 3 years. Canada is also the massive favorite to win Olympic gold in 2022 and he will be a top pairing or top 4 D man on that roster. His stats alone won't be good enough, but any other major team victory or an individual award will put him squarely ahead of the non-HOF guys with similar numbers.
 

Brian39

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NO the argument was that the Blues where not budging. Reports are that the Blues moved quite a bit even offering a partial NMC.
Regardless of the NMC situation, the Blues where not going to match the salary + signing bonus that he wanted.

Money drove this Petro bus, the same way it did with his first contract.
Yet he took less money. Weird.

Your logic is:

1: He wanted a full NMC
2: The Blues made a partial concession and offered a partial NMC
3: Thus, by rejecting an offer where the team got closer but didn't actually meet his goal, his decision was clearly about another factor.

This is not supported by the evidence we have.

One side budging on item A, but not conceding item A absolutely does not mean that the other side really had item B as their top priority. Army stated that he was offered a 'NMC that was partial and for certain years.' There is no evidence that the Blues offered a full NMC for any single year of the contract and it is clear from that statement that we certainly didn't offer a NMC for the duration of the contract. Literally no one is saying that the Blues made one offer and then didn't budge. No one is saying that the Blues didn't offer any type of movement protection. What has been said and what is supported by Army himself is that the movement protection offered by the Blues fell noticeably short of what he was offered by Vegas.

We have zero information about how much bonus money the Blues were willing to give Petro. We do know that the Blues offered bonus money to Petro, we just don't know how much. It is 100% incorrect to say that you know the Blues were not going to match the bonuses he wanted. Stating it as fact is absurd. We took on $27.5M in bonus money for ROR over a 5 year period. That makes up 84% of the money we will pay ROR. Vegas gave Petro $35M in bonus money over a 7 year deal, which makes up 57% of the money owed. It is not at all a given that we weren't willing to similarly structure a Petro deal. We may not have been willing to do so, but it is absolutely not a given.

We also know that the Blues offered more actual money to Petro. We offered $64M compared to $61.6M.

There is zero actual evidence to support the claim that it was all about money. There is tangible evidence that Vegas offered a more robust NMC than the partial/limited year NMC the Blues offered. It is a giant leap in logic that requires multiple assumptions to look at all that and come to the conclusion that the full NMC wasn't actually important to Petro and him requesting it was really just a smoke screen to try and get more money (before ultimately taking less money).
 
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Stelmacki

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He did want to be here. He just didn't want to take a huge step below his market value to do it.

There is a massive distinction there.

8x8 isn’t a huge step below his market value, even with the financial limitations imposed by COVID. I’m sorry, but his actions tell a different story.
 

Stelmacki

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That's just bad reporting, because the difference in taxes means he actually gets more...and that difference only increases because of how much signing bonus money he received, which is a big financial advantage for him.

he’s only making $5 million the first two years of the deal WITH the signing bonuses. How is it a big financial advantage for him?
 

TheDizee

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He has a pretty good shot at the HOF if he wins a Cup in the next 5 years or an Olympic gold in 2022.

He already has a Cup, Olympic gold, World Cup gold, and a World Junior gold. He wore a C on that Cup win and TSN's projection for Team Canada in 2022 had him on the top pairing. Not many guys played top 2 minutes on two different Cup winners, so doing that (plus two best on best international golds) puts him in the conversation. Similarly, 3 best on best golds is pretty rare air to combine with a Cup win.

Barring major injuries that sideline him for 1.5 seasons, he is going to play 1,200 NHL games. He'll hit 700 points if he averages just 36 points a year over the life of this contract, with a small shot at moving into the top 20 of all time D man scoring (he would need to average 47 points a year throughout the contract which means he'd need 2-3 more years like this one and then stay healthy).

He's no Pronger, but at even odds the smart money would be on him eventually getting into the HOF.
no he doesnt lol. zero personal hardware, not even a top 3 norris finish yet

lots of people win cups or medals. should JBO go into the HOF since he has just as many medals and cups? how about eric brewer, he has a gold medal.
 

Stelmacki

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We know because it was reported that his camp reached out to Armstrong to talk about an extension, and also reported that Armstrong pushed talks off because of "market uncertainty."

This notion that Pietrangelo was always set on going UFA even way back then is revisionist history.

‘The Blues moved on their proposal, where did Pietrangelo and his agent move to try and get a deal done? If you say that he didn’t have to, then you’re saying petro never planned on negotiating a new contract.
 

Brian39

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‘The Blues moved on their proposal, where did Pietrangelo and his agent move to try and get a deal done? If you say that he didn’t have to, then you’re saying petro never planned on negotiating a new contract.
Is your stance that any person's salary value is determined by just meeting somewhere in the middle of the first 2 proposals with no regard to how close either proposal was to market value?

Potential employee: I have 2 job offers of $100k, but I want to work here and would be willing to work here for $75k with a 2 year contract.

Employer: We offer $20k and an at-will arrangement

Potential employee: I'm not willing to accept that

Employer: Fine, we will offer $35k and a 2 year contract

Potential employer: No thank you.

Employer: Well this guy clearly just isn't willing to negotiate!

The view that both parties must start at an absurd ask and incrementally move down until a deal is reached is an incredibly simplistic view on how multi-million dollar negotiations work.
 
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EastonBlues22

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OK, fair enough. But we can also agree he wasn't "set on" returning to the Blues either. We don't know what limits ownership set, how far Army was willing to go, or what demands Petro and his agent had. The market certainly is "uncertain." I'm sure both sides are playing the media to save face. Maybe he wasn't set on going to UFA, but he surely knew it might come to that. As did Army, obviously. All the warm fuzzies of captaining a team to the Cup, having a wife with local ties and wanting to become one of the all-time Blues greats don't really matter when we are talking about a difference of millions of dollars.
I agree that he wasn't "set on" returning, but I do think he was initially open to signing without hitting the market, and that he would still be here if the Blues had offered a comparable contract.

That uncertainty comment, for the record, pre-dates Covid...and it didn't stop him from handing out other big deals. I personally think Armstrong didn't want the strings to his control the NMC and bonuses would bring, so he put off dealing with it and started putting contingency plans in place (alienating Pietrangelo somewhat in the process).

It's fine if Armstrong thinks he can't do his job with those strings. That's his choice to make...but that doesn't mean the Blues are necessarily in a better position for it.
 

Ridge1982

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One just has to look north to see why it was a smart move to not offer petro a full nmc. The hawks are saddled with 4 contracts on players they can’t do anything with, whom are now mad that they are having to go through a rebuild. You don’t saddle yourself by paying a guy on the wrong side of 30 nine million dollars and let him decide whether you can move him when he becomes dead weight.
Had petro been 28 no problem, but he will be 31 shortly after the season starts. We’re also in a pandemic that no one knows when it will return everything back to normal. I say cherish the good times with petro, thank him for his service and move on to trying to win the next cup. Getting nostalgic wins you nothing and will leave you like the trash up north.
They have three cups in 5 seasons to fall back on. I would take it over a dream unfulfilled. Worry about the future when you get there.
 

Stupendous Yappi

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To me, I value legacy more than money or whatever else that certain player is chasing. Especially when he will make over 100 mil in his career. Is there a chance they might have moved Petro once his play started deteriorating? Sure...But then it is 100% on the GM and owner and then the fans can protest and raise hell all they want. I don't feel that would happen though, to be honest. This situation is different and I feel will tarnish his Blues legacy. Look at how much Bobby Plager is loved in St.Louis; That dude has, and always will bleed blue and Petro could have been the same thing. Instead, Petro gave up so many great things NOT on a contract to go to play for a different team. The decision was up to him and he chose his way. Time to move on and focus on the future. I loved Petro, was always a big supporter but I am not gonna lie, I have a little resentment towards him, not management, for the way everything was played out
“Pietrangelo’ s” would be the perfect name for an upscale Italian restaurant on The Hill, with a classy Blues’ theme.
 

Stupendous Yappi

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Yet he took less money. Weird.

Your logic is:

1: He wanted a full NMC
2: The Blues made a partial concession and offered a partial NMC
3: Thus, by rejecting an offer where the team got closer but didn't actually meet his goal, his decision was clearly about another factor.

This is not supported by the evidence we have.

One side budging on item A, but not conceding item A absolutely does not mean that the other side really had item B as their top priority. Army stated that he was offered a 'NMC that was partial and for certain years.' There is no evidence that the Blues offered a full NMC for any single year of the contract and it is clear from that statement that we certainly didn't offer a NMC for the duration of the contract. Literally no one is saying that the Blues made one offer and then didn't budge. No one is saying that the Blues didn't offer any type of movement protection. What has been said and what is supported by Army himself is that the movement protection offered by the Blues fell noticeably short of what he was offered by Vegas.

We have zero information about how much bonus money the Blues were willing to give Petro. We do know that the Blues offered bonus money to Petro, we just don't know how much. It is 100% incorrect to say that you know the Blues were not going to match the bonuses he wanted. Stating it as fact is absurd. We took on $27.5M in bonus money for ROR over a 5 year period. That makes up 84% of the money we will pay ROR. Vegas gave Petro $35M in bonus money over a 7 year deal, which makes up 57% of the money owed. It is not at all a given that we weren't willing to similarly structure a Petro deal. We may not have been willing to do so, but it is absolutely not a given.

We also know that the Blues offered more actual money to Petro. We offered $64M compared to $61.6M.

There is zero actual evidence to support the claim that it was all about money. There is tangible evidence that Vegas offered a more robust NMC than the partial/limited year NMC the Blues offered. It is a giant leap in logic that requires multiple assumptions to look at all that and come to the conclusion that the full NMC wasn't actually important to Petro and him requesting it was really just a smoke screen to try and get more money (before ultimately taking less money).
I’m surprised to find a disingenuous argument from you Brian. Salary cap numbers aside, Pietro will easily put more money into his bank account over the life of the Vegas contract in comparison to the St Louis contract. Isn’t that the crux of the argument that it was purely a financial decision for him? (I also don’t think it was that simple, but your argument here is deceptive.)
 

BlueKnight

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I agree that he wasn't "set on" returning, but I do think he was initially open to signing without hitting the market, and that he would still be here if the Blues had offered a comparable contract.

That uncertainty comment, for the record, pre-dates Covid...and it didn't stop him from handing out other big deals. I personally think Armstrong didn't want the strings to his control the NMC and bonuses would bring, so he put off dealing with it and started putting contingency plans in place (alienating Pietrangelo somewhat in the process).

It's fine if Armstrong thinks he can't do his job with those strings. That's his choice to make...but that doesn't mean the Blues are necessarily in a better position for it.

This is my beliefs too. Elliott Friedman kept saying over and over that the negotiations became personal. And another insider said that Petro was feeling resentment because Armstrong was doing all of these other deals while Petro was being pushed aside. It's clear as day.
 

EastonBlues22

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he’s only making $5 million the first two years of the deal WITH the signing bonuses. How is it a big financial advantage for him?
It's been documented several times on this forum how a bigger bonus percentage and the potential timing of said bonuses can work in his favor. A lot of work went into those posts, so I suggest searching for them and reading them.

In addition, the structure of his deal makes it virtually impossible for Vegas to buy him out after those first few years (when the CBA expires)...which is really the only vulnerability a NMC has.
 

EastonBlues22

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‘The Blues moved on their proposal, where did Pietrangelo and his agent move to try and get a deal done? If you say that he didn’t have to, then you’re saying petro never planned on negotiating a new contract.
Nothing has been said about that, so we don't know.

A negotiation isn't necessarily a "let's just meet in the middle" on everything affair, though. Every party has some things they are willing to move on, and some they aren't. You communicate those things, and see if you can make something work.

Clearly there was a divide on some of those issues that couldn't be bridged. That happens, and it doesn't mean either side was negotiating in bad faith.
 

Brian39

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I’m surprised to find a disingenuous argument from you Brian. Salary cap numbers aside, Pietro will easily put more money into his bank account over the life of the Vegas contract in comparison to the St Louis contract. Isn’t that the crux of the argument that it was purely a financial decision for him? (I also don’t think it was that simple, but your argument here is deceptive.)
I vehemently disagree with this statement.

The reported 8x8 is $2.4M more in real dollars. He will achieve some tax savings from playing/residing in a tax free state, but it almost certainly won't be $2.4M. Assuming he doesn't have a tax attorney to reduce his tax burden at all:

NHL contracts include a clause that signing bonuses do not have to be paid out if the player refuses to report to the team. Petro can't just not show up to camp this fall and demand that Vegas pay out the $35M in signing bonuses. Due to this, the bonus is not viewed as completely separate from work performance by the IRS and is subject to the same "taxed where you play" requirements that salary is. Additionally, if he is able to successfully argue that all $35M of bonus money vested when he signed and was not contingent on future performance, he would get taxed on all of that money as a resident of Missouri. Because he was unquestionably a Missouri resident for the majority of 2020 and on the day he put pen to paper. There is no reality where he can legally claim all of that bonus money as a resident of Vegas and also not subject to "road taxes." If he doesn't report it as income to road states, then MO is going to come after him for taxes on $35M of income he claims vested while he was a MO resident that was wholly independent of him performing any work within the state of Nevada.

Half of his salary and bonuses benefit from a 0% state income tax vs Missouri's 5.5% tax rate. That is a tax savings of $1.7M over the life of the deal. However, by playing in the Pacific instead of the Central he is going to get taxed at a higher rate on his road games than playing in the Central. Being in the Pacific division means more games in California than he would have played here. It means more games in Canada than he would have here. It means fewer games in tax-free Dallas/Nashville than he would have played here. The difference between California/Canada tax and basically every non-Winnipeg Central division tax rate is substantial. 1 road game in California instead of Dallas costs a player as much in taxes as they save in 2.5 home games in Vegas. You get the same rate in California vs Nashville. That 3rd extra game in California instead of Colorado costs about as much extra as they saved in 1 Vegas home game. Going to Canada instead of Minnesota wipes out the savings of another home game. Same thing with going to Canada instead of Chicago. So the extra taxes on road games wipes out about 8 games worth of the savings realized by playing home games at 0% state tax vs Missouri's state income tax. That is 20% of that $1.7M tax savings over the life of the contract, which brings the total amount of money gained by playing with no state tax to around $1.35M. That is still puts his take home pay short of what we offered by about $1M.

The tax savings become even less when you factor in all of the deductions, tax exempt investment strategies, etc he is able to utilize to minimize his tax burden. The more you reduce your taxable income via those methods, the less of an impact state tax makes on his take home pay.

Nothing about the info we have suggests that his take home pay on $61.6M in Vegas will be more than his take home pay on $64M here.
 
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GoldenSeal

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Jeff Gordon had an interesting piece in the St. Louis Post Dispatch today about the Pietrangelo contract.

Petro took less money with the Vegas deal than he was offered by the Blues. He did get a no-movement clause, but in order to get it, he has to move himself and his family half way across the country.

Gordon's take on the situation is - Petro wanted out.

My take is he wants to be there while his young triplets grow up and doesn’t want to either uproot his family with each trade or doesn’t want to be away from his family like Maroon has been. In fact, maybe Maroon being as emotional as he is about not being there while his son grew up struck a cord with Pie.

In any event, I feel uprooting is a drastic and last resort thing that you do because you’re forced to or you do it for security and the Blues weren’t going to give that to him. That was my take.
 

Stelmacki

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My take is he wants to be there while his young triplets grow up and doesn’t want to either uproot his family with each trade or doesn’t want to be away from his family like Maroon has been. In fact, maybe Maroon being as emotional as he is about not being there while his son grew up struck a cord with Pie.

In any event, I feel uprooting is a drastic and last resort thing that you do because you’re forced to or you do it for security and the Blues weren’t going to give that to him. That was my take.

he certainly didn’t want his kids to grow up near their grandparents.
 

GoldenSeal

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You clearly have no idea what Hull did for this city and the kids growing up at the time. There would be no St.Louis Blues without Hull.

No, I do. I know how great Hull was and what he meant to a lot of people, I was a fan back then, but you play in the NHL for a shot at the Cup, that’s the point of it all and while we can several Blues players who mean a lot to St. Louis or had legendary personal stats only the “Gloria” team brought home the Cup - hell - raised it on Boston ice no less. You can bring up every great player whose worn the note and there have been so many that this team should have Cups, yet they weren’t good enough to bring it home and yet Captain Pietrangelo and his team brought it home. We’re talking greatness, Pie and that team - including Maroon - is in the discussion. Period.
 

Stelmacki

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Is your stance that any person's salary value is determined by just meeting somewhere in the middle of the first 2 proposals with no regard to how close either proposal was to market value?

Potential employee: I have 2 job offers of $100k, but I want to work here and would be willing to work here for $75k with a 2 year contract.

Employer: We offer $20k and an at-will arrangement

Potential employee: I'm not willing to accept that

Employer: Fine, we will offer $35k and a 2 year contract

Potential employer: No thank you.

Employer: Well this guy clearly just isn't willing to negotiate!

The view that both parties must start at an absurd ask and incrementally move down until a deal is reached is an incredibly simplistic view on how multi-million dollar negotiations work.

That’s a nice straw man you’ve made, but that’s about all it is.
 

GoldenSeal

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he certainly didn’t want his kids to grow up near their grandparents.

If you’re saying that because he didn’t take Army’s deal, I’ll be straight in saying you don’t take a mans word that you won’t be moved unless he’s willing to put it on paper. No matter if they’re the best of friends or not but it is a business and business has no friends.
 

Stelmacki

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If you’re saying that because he didn’t take Army’s deal, I’ll be straight in saying you don’t take a mans word you won’t be moved unless he’s willing to put it on paper. No matter if they’re best if friends or not but it is a business and business has no friends.

The simple truth is Armstrong and the Blues showed they were willing to move from their line to get him to stay, Pietrangelo did not. As little as you want to argue they did, they still did more. It’s fine if you argue the money and NMC, but you have to drop the narrative that Pietrangelo wanted to stay here.
 

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