Vaccine and vaccination thread

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hfman

Registered User
Oct 30, 2013
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Canada says the vaccine will not be mandatory.

No problem.

Canada also says that masks are not mandatory either.

But the entire country has to wear masks. Because it's up to each Province to decide.

So if Canada says "No mandatory vaccine" but the Province you live in says "yes, mandatory vaccine"... then.... it's mandatory


Can't believe anything we're told in this.

The only thing we know for sure is that Canada has order 150 million doses of the vaccine for a population of 39 million. That's almost 4 doses per person.

There's no way 10 million take the vaccine, yet the remaining 20 million say no and Canada says "ok, no problem" ?? Not a chance. You don't order 150 million doses only to have 10 million take it.

They say it won't be mandatory and I hope that's the truth, but it won't be that easy.
 

Muston Atthews

Bunch of Bangerz
Jul 2, 2009
32,642
5,008
Toronto, Ontario
You were going alright until you claimed that missing out on a few months of in-person school would cause kids to grow up with little to no social skills or ruin the long term future of the country. This isn't a permanent arrangement, and the more people take basic precautions to stop the spread, the less restrictions will be needed.

Look at France, which had an enormous spike but is turning it around now. Or Australia, which has all but eradicated it, and now when they have an outbreak they can do targeted containment for a week or two while everyone else is basically able to live like they did pre-pandemic. Framing this as a choice between freedom or suppression of the disease is completely backwards. It's when the disease is out of control that restrictions are required. The reason the US has to keep dealing with this is because people refuse to put up with even minor inconveniences for the good of everyone. Vaccines will be available soon to save our collective butts, but some of those same people will refuse to take them because of "muh freedom."

Masks aren’t going anywhere. Kids are already being taught to not touch anyone else by any means. Where I’m from kids are going on a full year of no school, and the kids that are in school are not allowed to play with eachother.

When Australia opens their borders again people will start to get it again and round and round we go.
 

Snauen

Registered User
Dec 27, 2017
1,349
526
I don't disagree .. that's why I said "given someone's age/health/job being deemed equal". Those who are elderly, immunocomprised and in critical health care positions should receive the vaccine first. But the vaccine supply will come in waves and we won't be able to vaccinate everyone at once.

I think it would be strategic to consider short-term immunity when deciding between vaccinating one person vs another. Maybe leave this approach to the regular people. But then again, I guess it would be logistically difficult to manage and therefore not too realistic.
Theese are relevant questions. Why vaccinate people who have been infected if they are immune? No need for that for no one (Except the Quantas airline). And if the immunity is short lived. Then is the immunity from the vaccine short lived too? How often should we take it?
 

Treb

Global Flanderator
May 31, 2011
28,179
27,934
Montreal
Canada says the vaccine will not be mandatory.

No problem.

Canada also says that masks are not mandatory either.

But the entire country has to wear masks. Because it's up to each Province to decide.

So if Canada says "No mandatory vaccine" but the Province you live in says "yes, mandatory vaccine"... then.... it's mandatory


Can't believe anything we're told in this.

The only thing we know for sure is that Canada has order 150 million doses of the vaccine for a population of 39 million. That's almost 4 doses per person.

There's no way 10 million take the vaccine, yet the remaining 20 million say no and Canada says "ok, no problem" ?? Not a chance. You don't order 150 million doses only to have 10 million take it.

They say it won't be mandatory and I hope that's the truth, but it won't be that easy.

I think you have the figure reversed. It sounds more like 25 million vaccinated - 14 million not than what you are saying.
 

Devilsfan992

Registered User
Apr 14, 2012
8,623
3,539
Theese are relevant questions. Why vaccinate people who have been infected if they are immune? No need for that for no one (Except the Quantas airline). And if the immunity is short lived. Then is the immunity from the vaccine short lived too? How often should we take it?

The other questions I have:

1) If a vaccine is 90-95% effective, yet we don't know how long the immunity is, why don't we do the same for people who have contracted the virus and have proof of a negative test some arbitrary time later. The person who has contracted the virus has > 99% immunity whereas the person who has a vaccine may have 90 - 95%.

2) The vaccine is said to be 90-95% effective. That leaves a 5-10% change you still can get infected. Does the vaccine also help lower the criticality of the symptoms if you were to be infected? Or is it a black and white situation where the symptoms would be exactly the same pre/post vaccination.
 

mattihp

Registered User
Aug 2, 2004
20,425
2,915
Uppsala, Sweden
Mandatory will be hard to pull off. I hope countries will enforce quarantines on un-vaccinated travelers from abroad though. No need to invite the virus back through an open door.
 

Revolutionary

Registered User
Oct 12, 2020
62
18
So, not like the last one hundred and fifty years of American history, where vaccinations have been mandatory in the United States in one form or another, a fact which has been explicitly upheld by the Supreme Court as constitutional (Jacobson v. Massachusetts in 1905, which held that mandatory vaccination in the event of a pandemic - in this case smallpox - was constitutional).

You do not have the "basic human right" to refuse to be vaccinated in the United States.

Jacobson vs. Massachusetts does not uphold the state's power to force vaccination on anyone:

Jacobson v. Massachusetts did not uphold the state's power to mandate vaccinations.

I have every right to deny being injected against my will.
 

JacketsFanWest

Registered User
Jun 14, 2005
5,020
1,182
Los Angeles, CA
Science by press release may be starting to be challenged:

The AstraZeneca Covid Vaccine Data Isn't Up to Snuff

Monday’s press release from AstraZeneca presents “convincing evidence that [the vaccine] works,” said Science. But not everyone has been convinced. The price of AstraZeneca’s shares actually dropped on the news, and an analysis from an investment bank concluded, “We believe that this product will never be licensed in the US.” Over at STAT News, Anthony Fauci cautioned that we’ll need to see more data before coming to a conclusion. The skeptics have strong reasons to be concerned: This week’s “promising” results are nothing like the others that we’ve been hearing about in November—and the claims that have been drawn from them are based on very shaky science.

Also:
In fact, it’s since emerged that the half-dose/full-dose option started out as a mistake, and one that was only caught when some people in the study didn’t have the usual high rate of adverse effects.

The Oxford-AstraZeneca vaccine also seems to produce relatively high rates of adverse events.

The question for any companies like Quantas that want to require vaccination is going to be what happens if a major vaccine elsewhere in the world isn't recognized in another country? If the Oxford/AstraZeneca vaccine isn't authorized in the US, then will US airlines require UK citizens who receive it to also get another vaccine? And then will there need to be testing on whether it's safe to have both the Oxford/AstraZeneca vaccine and the Pfizer or Moderna vaccine?
 

JacketsFanWest

Registered User
Jun 14, 2005
5,020
1,182
Los Angeles, CA
I'll add that there was a reason for Oxford to use for the control group an alternate vaccine and not saline - which is one of the main challenges to the data in the Oxford/AstraZeneca - people would know if they had the vaccine depending on the minor adverse effects of pain in the injection site and feeling generally crummy after the actual vaccination. So Oxford chose a meningitis vaccine which had similar adverse reactions. But it could have primed the immune system like the BCG and MMR vaccines are being used to do. The flu vaccine might even do the same thing. So the argument is that this was a study comparing the Oxford vaccine to the meningitis vaccine and invalid.

The rationale from the scientists at Oxford was that if someone had adverse effects like that - which most would - they would react differently than if they didn't. Those without adverse effects might be more cautious and that would effect the data.

So, what does that say about the Moderna and Pfizer trials? There's already people who participated in those trials who have posted on social media about knowing they had the real vaccine because of the adverse effects after receiving the vaccine (many need to take off work with flu symptoms). One person in the Pfizer trial went out and got an antibody test himself to show how well the blinded trial he was participating in worked.

If those in the control groups of the Moderna and Pfizer didn't have the typical adverse flu-like symptoms after having the vaccine - then could that impact their behavior knowing they didn't have the vaccine and had a placebo?
 

dortt

Registered User
Sep 21, 2018
5,298
2,656
Houston, TX
Theese are relevant questions. Why vaccinate people who have been infected if they are immune? No need for that for no one (Except the Quantas airline). And if the immunity is short lived. Then is the immunity from the vaccine short lived too? How often should we take it?

studies posted on this forum indicate that there is long term immunity, likely several years' worth
 

Cas

Conversational Black Hole
Sponsor
Jun 23, 2020
5,241
7,348
Jacobson vs. Massachusetts does not uphold the state's power to force vaccination on anyone:

Jacobson v. Massachusetts did not uphold the state's power to mandate vaccinations.

I have every right to deny being injected against my will.

That's nice, but you can, and will, be denied access to facilities, including private businesses and public services, as you should be, which was what you were complaining about in the first place, and not "being injected against your will." You might also be fined.

Congratulations, you didn't get a shot. Now you are not getting on that plane, going to that event, entering that restaurant, or attending that school function, and rightly so, and there is nothing you can do about it except complain. Maybe you can sue, but I wouldn't get my hopes up on that accomplishing anything.

Nice impression of Lundqvist, though.

H1qXkQ.gif
 

Snauen

Registered User
Dec 27, 2017
1,349
526
studies posted on this forum indicate that there is long term immunity, likely several years' worth
Ok if there is a long term immunity, why should anyone who had The Rona vaccinate themselves, atleast for a long while? And there are like many millions of us Covid survivors now.
 

Pens1566

Registered User
Aug 2, 2005
18,377
7,216
WV
Ok if there is a long term immunity, why should anyone who had The Rona vaccinate themselves, atleast for a long while? And there are like many millions of us Covid survivors now.

I think it would depend on the individual. In some, a less symptomatic case resulted in a lower immune response. More severe symptoms and the immune response was stronger, and likely longer.

This was seen in some of the documented 2nd infections where the first bout was mild and 2nd was much worse.

Also, vaccines can in some cases generate a longer immunity than what would come naturally acquired from an infection.
 

Curufinwe

Registered User
Feb 28, 2013
55,503
42,249
Masks aren’t going anywhere. Kids are already being taught to not touch anyone else by any means. Where I’m from kids are going on a full year of no school, and the kids that are in school are not allowed to play with eachother.

When Australia opens their borders again people will start to get it again and round and round we go.

When Australia opens their borders any traveller who hasn't been vaccinated will have to go thru a 14 day quarantine when they arrive in the country, just like they do now. Or they just won't be allowed it at all.
 

Jacob

as seen on TV
Feb 27, 2002
49,342
24,740
There’s still a lot of people that won’t be able to get the vaccine. Don’t think any included highly immunocompromised people or children in their trials yet.

I think schools, airlines and all countries should make proof of vaccine mandatory prior to entry.
 

Snauen

Registered User
Dec 27, 2017
1,349
526
I think it would depend on the individual. In some, a less symptomatic case resulted in a lower immune response. More severe symptoms and the immune response was stronger, and likely longer.

This was seen in some of the documented 2nd infections where the first bout was mild and 2nd was much worse.

Also, vaccines can in some cases generate a longer immunity than what would come naturally acquired from an infection.
Well, my thoughts personally goes like this; Im not going thru the ordeal of first beeing very sick in Covid to right after that get an injection against the same disease whit unknow side-effects . No way. Have already been the Guinea -pig once. In Swedens herd-immunity quest.. Im part of the "herd" now , the real herd that is, survived the shit, not the vaccinated secondary herd that is. We the real heard should be welcomed flying buissines class and welcomed everywhere. There got to be some benefits from having beaten the virus by your own body, not by some artificiall premedicated vaccin shot.
 

Fatass

Registered User
Apr 17, 2017
21,951
13,921
Well, my thoughts personally goes like this; Im not going thru the ordeal of first beeing very sick in Covid to right after that get an injection against the same disease whit unknow side-effects . No way. Have already been the Guinea -pig once. In Swedens herd-immunity quest.. Im part of the "herd" now , the real herd that is, survived the shit, not the vaccinated secondary herd that is. We the real heard should be welcomed flying buissines class and welcomed everywhere. There got to be some benefits from having beaten the virus by your own body, not by some artificiall premedicated vaccin shot.
Wouldn’t an antibody test prove recovery from Covid? Maybe those recovered person’s will get such a certificate?
 

foggyvisor

Registered User
Jun 28, 2018
1,925
2,690
Well, my thoughts personally goes like this; Im not going thru the ordeal of first beeing very sick in Covid to right after that get an injection against the same disease whit unknow side-effects . No way. Have already been the Guinea -pig once. In Swedens herd-immunity quest.. Im part of the "herd" now , the real herd that is, survived the shit, not the vaccinated secondary herd that is. We the real heard should be welcomed flying buissines class and welcomed everywhere. There got to be some benefits from having beaten the virus by your own body, not by some artificiall premedicated vaccin shot.

Your post-infection immunity would depend on how much viral load was in your body. Those with minor infections, who stay asymptomatic, may not develop a strong immunity.

It would make no sense to choose to have the actual virus in your body over a piece of its MRNA (vaccine).
 
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Pens1566

Registered User
Aug 2, 2005
18,377
7,216
WV
Well, my thoughts personally goes like this; Im not going thru the ordeal of first beeing very sick in Covid to right after that get an injection against the same disease whit unknow side-effects . No way. Have already been the Guinea -pig once. In Swedens herd-immunity quest.. Im part of the "herd" now , the real herd that is, survived the shit, not the vaccinated secondary herd that is. We the real heard should be welcomed flying buissines class and welcomed everywhere. There got to be some benefits from having beaten the virus by your own body, not by some artificiall premedicated vaccin shot.

Depending on your original illness, you could be better served with a longer/stronger immunity from one of the vaccines.
 

Fatass

Registered User
Apr 17, 2017
21,951
13,921
what if they’ve already had Covid?
Maybe there will be a vaccination record for most, and an antibodies record for those who are recovered from the virus, who don’t need the vaccine? Or maybe the government issues a vaccinated certificate to those recovered, just like they got the vaccine?
 
Jan 9, 2007
20,120
2,088
Australia
The other questions I have:

1) If a vaccine is 90-95% effective, yet we don't know how long the immunity is, why don't we do the same for people who have contracted the virus and have proof of a negative test some arbitrary time later. The person who has contracted the virus has > 99% immunity whereas the person who has a vaccine may have 90 - 95%.

2) The vaccine is said to be 90-95% effective. That leaves a 5-10% change you still can get infected. Does the vaccine also help lower the criticality of the symptoms if you were to be infected? Or is it a black and white situation where the symptoms would be exactly the same pre/post vaccination.

A vaccine was never going to be 100% effective. Flu vaccines aren't, in fact they are much lower. And what I am reading shows that vaccinations help reduce risk of severe infections, generally.
 
Jan 9, 2007
20,120
2,088
Australia
Jacobson vs. Massachusetts does not uphold the state's power to force vaccination on anyone:

Jacobson v. Massachusetts did not uphold the state's power to mandate vaccinations.

I have every right to deny being injected against my will.

Yes you do. Similarly, companies and local governments do not have to offer you the same services or benefits as others.

When I moved to Texas in 1997 my parents had to give my vaccination records to the school before I was allowed to enroll. This is basic stuff.
 
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